Britain - The Official Thread

[Lizard]

I would fall in the orange bar. It's part of who I am sure but I don't care that much.

 

[Mr Tree]

Or that they are less proud of the way that their country behaves. Which would also be fair.

One should not simply expect blind nationalism, and it seems reasonable that while young people might have strong attachments to their country they could at the same time not be proud of some of the attitudes and actions that it espouses.

For example, if one were to live in a profoundly racist country one might expect to see the same sort of thing. Older people who grew up accepting racism would be proud of their country as they see nothing to be ashamed of, but younger people who are not as tolerant are not proud of oppression of minorities. That doesn't mean that they don't care about their country, just that they don't necessarily think it's good the way it is.

I think I get what you mean but currently disagree. I might be under the false assumption that nationalism is being proud of your country because it's your country not due to it's policies. So people in your example our not proud of their country but the policies said country implements. Calling that nationalism seem odd to me you're a proud [fill in the blank] when you're proud that your country implemented [fill in the blank] policies. It seem to have very little to do with the country that it implements those policies.

I'm curious to your perspective on the matter.

 

[UKMikey]

I'm curious to your perspective on the matter.

I don't personally identify as English but I figure older English people are more likely to have a broader view and take pride in England's historical achievements while being more prepared to forgive them for recent transgressions.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Am I the only one that thinks this graph looks a little too..."neat?"

#fakenews

There's patterns in them there fakenews's

Or that they are less proud of the way that their country behaves. Which would also be fair.

One should not simply expect blind nationalism, and it seems reasonable that while young people might have strong attachments to their country they could at the same time not be proud of some of the attitudes and actions that it espouses.

For example, if one were to live in a profoundly racist country one might expect to see the same sort of thing. Older people who grew up accepting racism would be proud of their country as they see nothing to be ashamed of, but younger people who are not as tolerant are not proud of oppression of minorities. That doesn't mean that they don't care about their country, just that they don't necessarily think it's good the way it is.

Perhaps Nationalistic has overtones that I didn't mean to imply.

Based on that chart and the one I'd just posted, my feeling is that younger generations just don't see themselves as being that different or distanced from other countries, which is perhaps why they want fewer barriers between us and 'them'.

 

[baldgye]

Or that they are less proud of the way that their country behaves. Which would also be fair.

One should not simply expect blind nationalism, and it seems reasonable that while young people might have strong attachments to their country they could at the same time not be proud of some of the attitudes and actions that it espouses.

For example, if one were to live in a profoundly racist country one might expect to see the same sort of thing. Older people who grew up accepting racism would be proud of their country as they see nothing to be ashamed of, but younger people who are not as tolerant are not proud of oppression of minorities. That doesn't mean that they don't care about their country, just that they don't necessarily think it's good the way it is.

You can care about your country of origin without being nationalist.


Infact I don’t think you can even be nationalist and actually care about the best intestest of your country of origin

 

[TenEightyOne]

Or that they are less proud of the way that their country behaves. Which would also be fair.

One should not simply expect blind nationalism, and it seems reasonable that while young people might have strong attachments to their country they could at the same time not be proud of some of the attitudes and actions that it espouses.

It would also be interesting to see how the question was posed. If it was about specifically being English and not British then that should be explained. I suspect younger English people identify with Britain more than England and I additionally suspect that fewer English youngsters identify with England over Britain than Scottish, Welsh or NI youngsters would identify with their own country over Britain.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It would also be interesting to see how the question was posed. If it was about specifically being English and not British then that should be explained. I suspect younger English people identify with Britain more than England and I additionally suspect that fewer English youngsters identify with England over Britain than Scottish, Welsh or NI youngsters would identify with their own country over Britain.

Thanks to the unique way the BBC website is laid out, I can't seem to find the rest of the article again.

 

[Imari]

I think I get what you mean but currently disagree. I might be under the false assumption that nationalism is being proud of your country because it's your country not due to it's policies. So people in your example our not proud of their country but the policies said country implements. Calling that nationalism seem odd to me you're a proud [fill in the blank] when you're proud that your country implemented [fill in the blank] policies. It seem to have very little to do with the country that it implements those policies.

I'm curious to your perspective on the matter.

Let me try to describe my own situation and see if that makes it clearer.

I'm Australian and in my thirties. I have a strong sense of attachment and duty to Australia, probably more than most. This country is my home (despite me having grown up in New Zealand and my parents being Kiwis, I'm a born Australian citizen and have chosen to live here almost my entire adult life) and wherever and whenever possible I put my efforts into making sure that Australia becomes a better place. We're geographically large but relatively small in populations, and I think we hold ourselves pretty well and largely punch above our weight on the world stage.

That said, I'm not necessarily always proud of Australia or being Australian. Depending on who I'm talking to and about what, I absolutely wouldn't bring it up (although it's basically impossible to hide the accent). As a country we've done some shocking stuff in the past (see the Stolen Generations) and the not so distant past (see the Tampa Affair, asylum seekers imprisoned on Nauru, etc.) We've also done some great things and there are many great Australians who I'm proud to share a country with, but I'm not so myopic that I think that there isn't both good and bad in who we are and what we do.

I love my country, but at times I'm definitely not proud to be Australian. I will always be Australian and I'll always fight to make it the great country I feel that it is, but Australia is a team of 25 million people. I don't have to always agree with or be proud of how those other 24,999,999 people are representing Australia.

If someone asks me how proud or embarrassed I am about identifying as Australian, it largely depends on what Australia has done recently to make me proud or embarrassed to be an Australian. There have been times in the last twenty years that I have been both profoundly proud and profoundly embarrassed to be Australian.

 

[SestoScudo]

Nationalism in Turkey in my opinion is very toxic.

Why?? Because its used by politicians and is mixed in with politics, religion and even racist to be honest.

Nationalism in Turkey starts young. Forget about being a doctor, engineer or some respectful career. Highest career is joining the army and dying for your country.

Nationalism of Turkey is also mixed in with conspiracy theories that the whole world is against Turkey.

I seem to really draw parallels between Turkey and Russia. Despite them being at odds for centuries they are so alike.

 

[baldgye]

Nationalism is a cancer. It does no good other than allow you to further brainwash masses into doing horrible ****.

 

[TheCracker]

Nationalism is a cancer. It does no good other than allow you to further brainwash masses into doing horrible ****.

Nationalism usually harks back to a time where rose-tinted spectacles were prevalent. Yeah, i'm sure the 1950's were wonderful. Jobs-a-plenty, a real sense of community spirit, a future full of hope and advancement and i'm sure for a lot of people that was true - but then again, the previous 35 years had been a worldwide ****storm. Anything was going to seem better than that, but that's what gets forgotten. A country at a certain point in it's history is going to appear wonderful in retrospect but it's usually taken out of context to where it was just previous to that 'golden era'.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Nationalism is a cancer. It does no good other than allow you to further brainwash masses into doing horrible ****.

I'd say that fundamentally nationalism is not negative if handled objectively.

Of course, people use it differently - or are used by it differently.

 

[SestoScudo]

Nationalism is a cancer. It does no good other than allow you to further brainwash masses into doing horrible ****.

Nationalism caused two world wars but also one of the biggest atrocities in history like the Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, Sebrenica, Rwandan genocide many more.

 

[baldgye]

I'd say that fundamentally nationalism is not negative if handled objectively.

Of course, people use it differently - or are used by it differently.

How can nationalism be a positive? It doesn’t create anything it just builds barriers.

The idea that we own land and are connected to it and it forms parts of people’s identity is kind of insane. Especially when you think of how old the earth is, how little time we have inhabited it and how much the land mass(es) have changed over that period.

 

[Imari]

I'd say that fundamentally nationalism is not negative if handled objectively.

Of course, people use it differently - or are used by it differently.

That's sort of the thing though, right? Nationalism more or less by definition is uncritical devotion to your country above all else. Basically, your country can do no wrong as long as there's something positive in it for you. It also serves to create a hard boundary between those who are of your country and those who are not.

I would say that this mindset is very much not objective compared to the type of thinking that would consider how your country's actions might affect other humans, and take that into account. It's subjective from the perspective of your own country and intentionally so. It's very easy to steal, kill, or go to war with someone if you see them as lesser and make no attempt to empathise with their situation.

 

[MatskiMonk]

How can nationalism be a positive? It doesn’t create anything it just builds barriers.

The idea that we own land and are connected to it and it forms parts of people’s identity is kind of insane. Especially when you think of how old the earth is, how little time we have inhabited it and how much the land mass(es) have changed over that period.

That's sort of the thing though, right? Nationalism more or less by definition is uncritical devotion to your country above all else. Basically, your country can do no wrong as long as there's something positive in it for you. It also serves to create a hard boundary between those who are of your country and those who are not.

I would say that this mindset is very much not objective compared to the type of thinking that would consider how your country's actions might affect other humans, and take that into account. It's subjective from the perspective of your own country and intentionally so. It's very easy to steal, kill, or go to war with someone if you see them as lesser and make no attempt to empathise with their situation.

To my way of thinking, to describe it as simply a bad thing negates the possibility that there could actually be legitimate reasons to feel a sense of pride in, or duty to, your country. I don't take it to mean uncritically automatically.

 

[baldgye]

To my way of thinking, to describe it as simply a bad thing negates the possibility that there could actually be legitimate reasons to feel a sense of pride in, or duty to, your country. I don't take it to mean uncritically automatically.

How could you feel legitimate pride in an idea of something that doesn't and never really existed?

 

[MatskiMonk]

How could you feel legitimate pride in an idea of something that doesn't and never really existed?

You're loosing me now What is the something you're referring to?

 

[TexRex]

To my way of thinking, to describe it as simply a bad thing negates the possibility that there could actually be legitimate reasons to feel a sense of pride in, or duty to, your country. I don't take it to mean uncritically automatically.

To my mind, nationalism ≠ patriotism.

 

[baldgye]

You're loosing me now What is the something you're referring to?

Nationalism. It’s based on an ideal, not a reality, “this green and pleasant land..” etc

 

[TenEightyOne]

Nationalism. It’s based on an ideal, not a reality, “this green and pleasant land..” etc

And did his feeeeeeeeet... in ancient tiiiiiiimes....?

 

[MatskiMonk]

Nationalism. It’s based on an ideal, not a reality, “this green and pleasant land..” etc

But nations do exist, and they divide, and to a point, define us. You can be proud of your government, your society or your culture, just as equally as you could be disgusted by them. You can want to protect it, just as much as you can want to leave it. You can balance all that stuff up, and come to a conclusion based on your life experience... it can be that that instills it in you, rather than just being born somewhere.

And did his feeeeeeeeet... in ancient tiiiiiiimes....?

Oh dear,did somebody say mattress to Mr Lambert?

It would also be interesting to see how the question was posed.

In this article today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44210984 they linked the previous article... which is here... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44142843

 

[TexRex]

And did his feeeeeeeeet... in ancient tiiiiiiimes....?

Oh dear,did somebody say mattress to Mr Lambert?

 

[baldgye]

But nations do exist, and they divide, and to a point, define us. You can be proud of your government, your society or your culture, just as equally as you could be disgusted by them. You can want to protect it, just as much as you can want to leave it. You can balance all that stuff up, and come to a conclusion based on your life experience... it can be that that instills it in you, rather than just being born somewhere.

Which would be fine, but that’s not the case in countries with populations over 10million... my upbringing, society and cultural links aren’t the same as anyone else, least the majority of a hugely varied nation.

So I don’t really agree with you.

For example; I had the ‘privilege’ of being both state and publicly educated at both primary and secondary levels. The ‘nationalists’ I met or had to interact with are nothing like each other, yet both claim to ‘love’ the same thing.

 

[Liquid]

To my mind, nationalism ≠ patriotism.

On the whole I agree with this but there are contextual factors too.

I'm a Welsh nationalist; I long for, and believe in, the idea of an independent Welsh nation. And because that is something which does not exist (I'm not blind to what the legal reality is) then desiring a nation must make me a nationalist by definition as well as me being a patriot because I love our history, culture, language, geography and our achievements and gifts to the world.

However I don't champion the 'superiority' of Wales against other nations or consider other nations to necessarily be inferior to it either. In my experience it's almost as though there are two definitions of nationalism:

- If you are an independent nation, your nationalism can be considered (or mistaken) for superiority and triumphalism
- If you are not an independent nation, your nationalism can be considered a rallying cry for statehood against an oppressor or, indeed, a laughable gimmick for a people who will never have the strength to see it through

But at the same time, in many ways I have turned my back on my nation. As @Imari said in an earlier post, it's quite easy to hold both pride and shame in your country at the same time without accepting all of the praise and ignoring any of the historical guilt. I, a self-described nationalist, have turned my back on my nation because I don't live in Wales. I also dislike what I perceive to be a large portion of my fellow countrymen; we're a nation of self-hating bootlickers who'd sooner love the idea of Walesshire, an extended county of England, than become the independent nation I happen to believe.

Does that make me a hypocrite? To be a nationalist but not live there? To be patriotic but not take part?

 

[TexRex]

On the whole I agree with this but there are contextual factors too.

Oh absolutely, but, contextually, I suspect you can acknowledge there's a type of "nationalism" floating about, not like the one you describe, rather one that's much more divisive.

This is what I'm referring to when I say that it's not to be confused with patriotism, and I'm compelled to say as much because I see people trying to pass it off as patriotism, thinking that doing so somehow validates their bigoted views.

 

[TenEightyOne]

On the whole I agree with this but there are contextual factors too.

I'm a Welsh nationalist; I long for, and believe in, the idea of an independent Welsh nation. And because that is something which does not exist (I'm not blind to what the legal reality is) then desiring a nation must make me a nationalist by definition as well as me being a patriot because I love our history, culture, language, geography and our achievements and gifts to the world.

However I don't champion the 'superiority' of Wales against other nations or consider other nations to necessarily be inferior to it either. In my experience it's almost as though there are two definitions of nationalism:

- If you are an independent nation, your nationalism can be considered (or mistaken) for superiority and triumphalism
- If you are not an independent nation, your nationalism can be considered a rallying cry for statehood against an oppressor or, indeed, a laughable gimmick for a people who will never have the strength to see it through

But at the same time, in many ways I have turned my back on my nation. As @Imari said in an earlier post, it's quite easy to hold both pride and shame in your country at the same time without accepting all of the praise and ignoring any of the historical guilt. I, a self-described nationalist, have turned my back on my nation because I don't live in Wales. I also dislike what I perceive to be a large portion of my fellow countrymen; we're a nation of self-hating bootlickers who'd sooner love the idea of Walesshire, an extended county of England, than become the independent nation I happen to believe.

Does that make me a hypocrite? To be a nationalist but not live there? To be patriotic but not take part?

An interesting and timely article on being Scottish without feeling British. BBC.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I have a few co-workers that are Brits and when I asked them "The cops that only carry a whistle, what is their purpose they're essentially useless?" They only answer was "We can't even figure that one out."

There's no such thing unless they're on ceremonial duties (in which case there's very likely a number of armed units nearby).

 

[Lizard]

This is something I find a lot of people mistakenly cite about Britain. Yes we do have armed police, just we only use them when needed, hell at times we have drafted the army for policing but for obvious reasons we don't like to do that.

From people I have spoken to as well, there seems to be a lot less fear of the police here. If you haven't done anything then the general idea here is the police are your friend.

 

[baldgye]

If you live in a major U.K. city chances are your more likely to see armed police than unarmed police... it’s really quite ridiculous