Britain - The Official Thread

  • Thread starter Ross
  • 13,373 comments
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How will you vote in the 2024 UK General Election?

  • Conservative Party

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Labour Party

    Votes: 14 48.3%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Other (Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland)

    Votes: 1 3.4%
  • Other Independents

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other Parties

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Spoiled Ballot

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Will Not/Cannot Vote

    Votes: 8 27.6%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
I'd love to know more about the anti-Semitism in labour issue. I only really see it described in broad strokes.

Is it really anti-Semitism like, we don't want Jews in the party? Or is it anti-Zionism or people skeptical of Israel?

To me there's a cavernous divide between being critical of Zionism and being an outright anti-Semite. Where do the labour allegations fall?

I'm not leading would anyone into any well-laid trap of a point here, I genuinely don't know much about it and I'd look it up myself but like, wow, opinion and information overload.
 
I'd love to know more about the anti-Semitism in labour issue. I only really see it described in broad strokes.

Is it really anti-Semitism like, we don't want Jews in the party? Or is it anti-Zionism or people skeptical of Israel?

To me there's a cavernous divide between being critical of Zionism and being an outright anti-Semite. Where do the labour allegations fall?

I'm not leading would anyone into any well-laid trap of a point here, I genuinely don't know much about it and I'd look it up myself but like, wow, opinion and information overload.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

'enjoy'
 
I'd love to know more about the anti-Semitism in labour issue. I only really see it described in broad strokes.

Is it really anti-Semitism like, we don't want Jews in the party? Or is it anti-Zionism or people skeptical of Israel?

To me there's a cavernous divide between being critical of Zionism and being an outright anti-Semite. Where do the labour allegations fall?

I'm not leading would anyone into any well-laid trap of a point here, I genuinely don't know much about it and I'd look it up myself but like, wow, opinion and information overload.
Both. Pro Palestine, anti Israel becomes background anti-semitism. That attracts other racist types and the Jewish members notice it and complain. Nothing gets done. They leave the party and make a fuss. The leader who was not a leader can't believe it and can't do anything about it then the loony left pretend it's the centrists being obstructionist to alleviate their own failings. That's going to take a while to fix...
 
Thanks for the link man, feel a little better informed.

The 0.04% statistic and many of the quotes from the investigations lead me to believe this is just a symptom of Labour's fanatical efforts to eat themselves alive.
Corbyn is an anti-semite and his presence and the presence of those he brought in sharing similar views allowed people on the fence to come out of the closet, so to speak. I imagine the same is/was true of Trump and racists within the Republicans.


I think it's worse than just Labour imploding, as you'd expect a problem as crazy as antisemitism in 2020 to be easily solved. Yet Corbyn refused to do so as leader and the cancer that is hatred and bigotry infested itself within the Labour party.
 
BoJo making another new appointment (it's a twitter thread so you might have to click the link)



Some highlights (hidden them in spoilers as now twitter's decided it's a thread);


 
Corbyn is an anti-semite and his presence and the presence of those he brought in sharing similar views allowed people on the fence to come out of the closet, so to speak. I imagine the same is/was true of Trump and racists within the Republicans.


I think it's worse than just Labour imploding, as you'd expect a problem as crazy as antisemitism in 2020 to be easily solved. Yet Corbyn refused to do so as leader and the cancer that is hatred and bigotry infested itself within the Labour party.

Yikes, scathing.

I mean, I'm not a fan of Israel - and I'll make it clear that has nothing to do with the state religion, how the state came into existence, or anything to do with a loosely described international banking conspiracy.

But yeah, looks like a pretty nasty environment, and I can understand how it came about, as often when I criticise Israel the first response is asking whether I hate all Jews, or whatever else. It's very hard to separate the state from the religion for some people, I guess.

Anyway, in my view Labour is a shambling mess with or without this. It's a symptom of their wider problem of having no idea who or what to represent.
 
UK to ban neo-Nazi Sonnenkrieg Division as a terrorist group
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/24/uk-ban-neo-nazi-sonnenkrieg-division-terrorist-group


I guess some progress, is still progress...
Why do so many Neo-Nazis seem to be of Polish or Slavic descent? Is the irony lost on them something?

Hoping we can ban AntiFa too just to balance out the scales. In fact can we just jail anyone who thinks donning all black and shouting in the streets en route to a destructive rampage through private property passes as "politics", regardless of which side of the fence they fall on?
 
Why do so many Neo-Nazis seem to be of Polish or Slavic descent? Is the irony lost on them something?

Hoping we can ban AntiFa too just to balance out the scales. In fact can we just jail anyone who thinks donning all black and shouting in the streets en route to a destructive rampage through private property passes as "politics", regardless of which side of the fence they fall on?
I guess when anti-fascists start mass murdering people and/or plotting terrorist attacks... they’ll be added to the list?
 
I guess when anti-fascists start mass murdering people and/or plotting terrorist attacks... they’ll be added to the list?
They're a solely one-sided political group that chooses not to take part in legitimate discourse in favour of inciting riots and hate speech.

In my view, that's using fear and threat for political means, which is the very definition of terrorism. Bombs and guns do not a terrorist make.

I should add, my original comment was made with some jest. I'm not out to be associated with a Trump quote here; that is to say, I am not putting myself in polar opposition to the goals of AntiFa, but I deeply disapprove of their (very hypocritical) rhetoric and methods.

But that's what you get from a bunch of LARPing communist students - roughly the same as what you get from a bunch of LARPing fascist internet message board enthusiasts.
 
They're a solely one-sided political group that chooses not to take part in legitimate discourse in favour of inciting riots and hate speech.

In my view, that's using fear and threat for political means, which is the very definition of terrorism. Bombs and guns do not a terrorist make.

I should add, my original comment was made with some jest. I'm not out to be associated with a Trump quote here; that is to say, I am not putting myself in polar opposition to the goals of AntiFa, but I deeply disapprove of their (very hypocritical) rhetoric and methods.

But that's what you get from a bunch of LARPing communist students - roughly the same as what you get from a bunch of LARPing fascist internet message board enthusiasts.
You say ‘only in jest’ yet extremist right wing groups, who advocate for mass murder have been called ‘not all bad’ by the leader of The world super power...

This is a huge step towards criminalising these extreme groups (and those that feed into them) that propagate racism and hate online, that’s resulted in actual mass shootings and terrorist attacks world wide.
 
You say ‘only in jest’ yet extremist right wing groups, who advocate for mass murder have been called ‘not all bad’ by the leader of The world super power...
And if I were to say "AntiFa are violent, incite riots and violence and openly encourage violence against those they disagree with, but I imagine a lot of them are decent-minded people caught up in an ever widening chasm of partisan politics", what exactly would be different about that statement?

The essential problem for me with AntiFa is its loosely defined mission. It's a mostly disassociated group of very angry people who echo chamber themselves deeper and deeper into the "everyone who disagrees with us is Hitler" mentality whilst constantly stretching to espouse the merit of any group that might give them an ounce of support - liberals of every description, outright anarchists, unironic communists and SJWs.

A bunch of people who if they really got in a room and tried to cobble together a singular manifesto or agenda would soon realise they don't agree with each other that much. And that just becomes an underground "resist the power" LARPing society of disenfranchised edgelords, scrunching their fists into the air in indignant rage like every other Che idolising group of radicals before them.

They campaign against any opposing speech, seeking to deplatform rivals through anything but the proper channels - i.e with threats and violence. They are ultra-counter productive to any fight against fascism in whatever form.

Imagine you're raised somewhere with more conservative traditions. Perhaps your parents are white nationalists, or whatever else.

Doesn't 'a bunch of disorganised anarchists dressed like Watch Dogs characters threatening violence on university campuses or wherever else because people are speaking there who they disagree with' read like a really good teaching tool for whole authoritarian rule might be necessary to a peaceful way of life? "Well, ya see lil' Jimbo, these commies just can't act like decent people and wanna lock up anyone that's just sayin' what we're all thinkin' etc etc etc."

AntiFa, as an organisation, uses intimidation and the threat of violence in going about its business, which is to promote a specific political agenda. That's terrorism, so if it's really that important for us to list every group that might possibly one day do something horrible to people in the name of politics, religion or whatever else agenda, they by definition need to be on there.

Not that I care that much as I doubt being on the government's naughty list is going to dissuade them or any of the others from their activities. By the time you're in the street with the bandana over your face chucking bricks at a bank, you'd think you'd be pretty set in your decision and where you stand, right?

Unless, of course, you're not as woke and politically mature as you think.

I hate AntiFa. Because I agree with their message, but nigh on everything they do undermines it.
 
Yeah, if your only response to my quite comprehensive post is a single Google search very deliberately phrased to return no results, I'm not interested in what you have to say, and you're clearly not interested in my point either.

I never claimed that AntiFa killed anyone; I claimed they use violence and threat to advance their political aims, which is a dictionary definition of terrorism, which is the only point I seek to prove here. A Google search for AntiFa violence or AntiFa assault will show plenty of legit, reported results.

Pretty insulting response, mate.
 
Yeah, if your only response to my quite comprehensive post is a single Google search very deliberately phrased to return no results, I'm not interested in what you have to say, and you're clearly not interested in my point either.

I never claimed that AntiFa killed anyone; I claimed they use violence and threat to advance their political aims, which is a dictionary definition of terrorism, which is the only point I seek to prove here. A Google search for AntiFa violence or AntiFa assault will show plenty of legit, reported results.

It wasn't a deliberate search to generate more or less searches actually (I was on the train at the time and so I did a quick google search while I had decent signal)...
I did google 'Antifa violence' and while, there was a firebombing (where the suspect was shot and killed)... there wasn't anything LIKE the scale of the far right violence that has killed many people over the last few years (including a British MP lets not forget).
The two are not comparable (which regardless of how you view terrorism is what you seem to be suggesting) and it wouldn't matter if you wrote a 7 thousand page essay it wouldn't change that fact.
The fact that the British government is recognising the seriousness of the far-right is a positive step... especially given how the current President of the United States defended right wing extremists after an attack that resulted in another murder.

If you really want me to think about what you've written it'll make me fairly angry, because what you essentially seem to be saying is that 'there are bad on both sides' or 'both sides are as bad as each other'... which is again false and belittles the loss of life suffered due to far right extremists because some on the extreme left are a bit violent.

AntiFa, as an organisation, uses intimidation and the threat of violence in going about its business, which is to promote a specific political agenda.

And the far right are MURDERING people...

Pretty insulting response, mate.
iNoRitE?
 
The two are not comparable (which regardless of how you view terrorism is what you seem to be suggesting) and it wouldn't matter if you wrote a 7 thousand page essay it wouldn't change that fact.

I never claimed AntiFa are "as bad as" or even "comparable to" any right wing group. All I said was while we're writing a list of the terrorist groups, we should put AntiFa on there as well, as by the definition of "terrorism" they would qualify.

This is the "in some jest" I referred to earlier. It would be an absurd notion that AntiFa are exactly as bad as any of the groups on that document - be they Right Wing, Religious, Revolutionaries or whatever else. That's kind of the joke.

The fact that the British government is recognising the seriousness of the far-right is a positive step... especially given how the current President of the United States defended right wing extremists after an attack that resulted in another murder.
I agree! So long as any investigation into groups that pose an extremist threat is conducted along non-partisan lines; that is to say, AntiFa, NeoNazis and the RSPB (note the jocular tone, I implore you) are investigated to the same degree as everyone else, and no group is written off of being a potential threat based on the nature of their politics. I should clarify here, I feel, that I do believe this is the case, and don't believe AntiFa have some special immunity or aren't taken seriously by investigators.

If you want me to think about what you've written it'll make me fairly angry, because what you essentially seem to be saying is that 'there are bad on both sides' or 'both sides are as bad as each other'... which is again false and belittles the loss of life suffered due to far right extremists because some on the extreme left are a bit violent.
That's not what I said. I didn't talk about any other group than AntiFa, and all I really accuse them of is being a bunch of anarchist LARPers who are very counterproductive to actual political discourse, which is the truth.

It does absolutely **** all to belittle or downplay the crimes or anyone else. Just because I critique AntiFa doesn't make me an AfD supporter, in much the same way that criticising communism doesn't make me a fascist or vice versa.

God forbid something I say make you think, and God forbid that thought make you angry. It's healthy to be challenged, as it affirms conviction in your belief. Don't be so dismissive just because you don't initially agree with me, perhaps it's more worthwhile to read and absorb what I said so you can understand my viewpoint - especially since I never said you were wrong, criticised your viewpoint or accused you of anything, merely explained why I don't support the group in question.

You seem to have gone out of your way to pay as little attention to that as possible, and to deliver as wholly unsatisfying a reply as you can. Essentially, it feels like you've skim-read my posts and decided "this guy wants to downplay MURDER" and thus I'm not worthy of proper debate.

You seem to have mistaken "I don't support AntiFa, and I feel what they do is terrorism" for "AntiFa are the left wing Nazi skinheads that want to drag me out of my house", and I don't think it's very unclear which opinion I actually hold.

I'm quite willing to continue discussing the talking point my original post has raised, but I'd like to remind you that it had a jocular tone, I explained it was poking fun, and then explained the joke again in this post, so I won't be doing so again, and if I'm again taken for "EQUIVILATING MASS MURDER WITH JUST ONE LIKKLE IKKLE FIREBOMBING" then I won't bother at all.
 
You compared them though.
Except for when I never directly compared them in any of my considerable ramblings;

Hoping we can ban AntiFa too just to balance out the scales. In fact can we just jail anyone who thinks donning all black and shouting in the streets en route to a destructive rampage through private property passes as "politics", regardless of which side of the fence they fall on?

Is about as close as I ever came to an outright comparison and I don't feel that paragraph even slightly implies I equate the deeds of AntiFa with those of any other group.

I've already remarked on how equating AntiFa to militant terrorist groups recognised by the government would be a wasted exercise for me, so this is further evidence that no one has bothered to infer any meaning from my posts other than "AntiFa bad".
 
Except for when I never directly compared them in any of my considerable ramblings

I thought the comparison was clear when you said:

And if I were to say "AntiFa are violent, incite riots and violence and openly encourage violence against those they disagree with, but I imagine a lot of them are decent-minded people caught up in an ever widening chasm of partisan politics", what exactly would be different about that statement?

Now you're saying it would be very different and not comparable?
 
I thought the comparison was clear when you said:



Now you're saying it would be very different and not comparable?
Out of context. I'm responding directly to @baldgye where he effectively says right wing groups are being defended by politicians; I'm clarifying that leftist groups get the same treatment. It really has bugger all to do with nature of their activities, similar or otherwise.

It's not a comparison between the two groups; I'm pointing out the fallacy of claiming my joke/point is morally reprehensible because the people on the other side to those I'm poking fun at are murderers.

The original question was left open ended for a reason. What do YOU think? Is a politician claiming some members of far right groups are OK people, even if members of that group are criminals, the same as another politician claiming some members of far left groups are criminals, even if we know many members of it aren't?

It gets boring trying to discuss talking points and being pinned to the wall for presenting a different opinion or point of view, even when I'm doing so out of the interest of debate, and not even disagreeing with the principle points of those I'm debating with.
 
I mean, I didn't just say it, I linked one of the if not the most powerful politician on Earth doing that.
Yes, you did, I didn't intend to obscure that, a fair amount of scrolling and reading was involved in the post, I should have quoted you directly. I'm not here to dispute obvious facts.
 

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