Britain - The Official Thread

[MatskiMonk]

Precariat, the most deprived of the social classes, apparently.

Interesting result... surely I must be eligible for some of those benefits our government gives out

 

[Wiegert]

Emergent service workers. It probably would have been lower if it wasn't for my musical preferences.

 

[DK]

The term Upper, Middle and Working Class are outdated according to sociologists from leading universities, so what class are you now?

Technical middle class for me.

I got "emergent service class". I'll be honest, my dad had to move to England to find work, and I'm only in uni because I'm getting grants.

 

[axletramp]

Technical middle class here. Average age 52... wait, wut?!

 

[Moglet]

Emergent Service Workers. Sounds about right, although we only don't have much money as we've just moved house. Half of the Isle of Wight isn't listed on there though; they're retired, have loads of money and look down their noses at everyone else.

EDIT: By putting in the details from our old jobs and house we'd have been 'established middle class'.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Yeah I'm not sure what the point of theses labels they're trying to use are, they don't seem to take into account most of the important life circumstances.

 

[Lizard]

Yeah I'm not sure what the point of theses labels they're trying to use are, they don't seem to take into account most of the important life circumstances.

It is trying to be quick about it that's why.

It is basically using the three forms of capital economic, social and cultural to put you in a group. For example the elite have high economic capital and an exclusive social network and also engage in what is known as high culture i.e. going to the opera as opposed to popular culture which is things like going to a night club.

This is still debated though. Some studies say the UK is a classless society. I personally believe we do have class but some don't.

 

[homeforsummer]

Emergent service workers here too, though that's excluding anything to do with my parents and based solely on my own income.

That said, as careers go, being a journalist is about as middle-class as you can get. I just happen to not earn a middle-class wage from it

 

[TheCracker]

Ding dong, the witch is dead.

 

[axletramp]

Indeed.

 

[Roger the Horse]

I'm worried about my moral integrity now. My first reaction to hearing of Mrs Thatcher's death was indeed to have the words "Ding Dong the witch is gone" come into my head.Which to be honest is rather distasteful.

And then I look on the internet. Turns out I'm not alone in these thoughts...

 

[ExigeEvan]

You can celebrate the death of Saddam Hussain, but not Margaret Thatcher it would seem...

 

[MatskiMonk]

You can celebrate the death of Saddam Hussain, but not Margaret Thatcher it would seem...

Sounds like you're feeling persecuted for not being able to celebrate the death of Maggie Thatcher?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

RIP, Margaret Thatcher. I'm not a big fan of her policies, but you can't deny that she was an incredible woman.

 

[Famine]

There's certainly an idealogical gulf (no pun intended) between being pleased that a very active threat to world security (with or without the WMDs) who killed and tortured his way through tens of millions of people based on their race and religion over a tyrannical score of years has met his end and being pleased that someone you don't like because her decisions for what she felt was for the good of the country overall changed the course of the lives of hundreds of thousands of people (some of whom took their own lives, without a doubt, as a result), largely before you were born has died of a stroke.


I hold personal ambivalence towards Thatcher. She did very many things that ultimately made the country stronger at the expense of certain sectors of society through the paring of public spending - and remember that as a nationalised service, coal mining was being entirely funded by the country at large and was in decline for both raw production (total tonnage) and productivity (tonnage per employee) for fifteen years at the point they cut it off - attempts had been made 10 years before and they crippled Ted Heath's government.

It was unsustainable, but it was also very painful to end it and, yes, it affected the lives of very many thousands in the industry and in the towns built around it - particularly in South Wales and South Yorkshire.

While you may disagree with her politics*, the fact she did what she thought was right at the expense of what was popular - though she still won another General Election after that, with numbers that make Blair's two re-elections and Cameron's sort-of one look like unpopular choices - and never actually gassed someone to death for being the wrong kind of Muslim makes her a better leader than Major, Blair, Brown or Cameron and slightly undeserving of parallels drawn to Saddam, Osama or - and I've seen this a few times today - Hitler...

And yes, I was born two years before she came to power and was only 13 when she "left", so I didn't fully live through the consequences of some of her decisions. This plays a part in my ambivalence.

*And I am neither a Tory nor a fan of some of her choices, so count me into that

 

[axletramp]

OK, here's where I am with this and I must admit I share the ambivalence about her.

In the 80's it was cool to hate Thatcher which was mainly driven by the media and social changes (not defending her policies, just giving an indication of the feelings during her time in office). The rise of political correctness and socialist 'right on' comedians had the perfect nemesis in Thatcher so it was easy for the younger generation (students, etc) to play along with this. If you think of Spitting Image dressing Thatcher as Hitler and comedy shows like The Young Ones, then you'll get what I mean. But this generation themselves would also not really remember the effects of the 70s oil crisis, the power of the unions (often to the detriment of the businesses they worked for) and the slump in the traditional industries that the majority of Britain's work force relied upon which the Tories inherited from Labour. So when Maggie started cutting the unprofitable coal mines, steel work, etc and concentrated on building the finance industry to fill the GDP gulf (which is a sound business move), it was easy for that generation to take the side of those losing out and attack the Government.

But the flip side of this was that she did actually start to create the North/South divide, that still exists today, at the expense of making Britain stronger. London did become the international financial hub she wanted and Britain has profited (pun intended) as a world power as a consequence. But the price was a widening of the social classes which we feel even more to a greater extent today especially when you consider that the political decisions in the 80's laid the roots to what happened globally in 2008.

The other thing that people need to realise is that politics was far more polarising than it is today. There were clear political and idiological differences between the Tories and Labour, a situation which allowed people to take sides more easily. And the younger generation at the time (those driving cultural and social changes) were never going to side with the Tories (Thatcher), unless they went to Eton, of course. But don't get me started on the grey wishy-washy politicians today - Maggie had more balls than all of them and you have to respect her for that!

As for me, I was at voting age when she was in power and did actually vote for her* (well my local Tory anyway), but I was born in an affluent area in the South East and tbh I'm willing to say I didn't understand the troubles the rest of the country were having due in part to Tory policies. I do now, but at that time if you lived in the home counties and worked in London, her ideas actually worked.

But having said that, I'm not going to attack anyone for calling her Hitler or saying they're glad she's dead. It's very much a 'as in life, so in death' situation in reality. They called her 'Hitler' and 'facist' then and so they will now. If I joke about it (and I have) then the joke is really about the situation and memories of what it was like when she was in power, not a personal attack.

*One for the Confessions thread there...

 

[Liquid]

Thatcher. I was born a few months after her premiership ended, but I am a keen reader of history and politics on both a national and local level. You can add North Wales to South Wales/Yorkshire/Nottinghamshire in a list of places badly affected by her policies. North Wales, a geographical region comprising of pretty much Wrexham and innumerable miniscule communities, and which has the lowest income per capita per head in the entire country, relied on both slate and coal and once they went, unemployment soared. This has heavily swayed local and regional opinion on her legacy.

And personally, I believe it boils down to the argument of "It wasn't taking away the work, it was taking away the work and having nothing to replace it". Communities divided, died or became derelict. Stagflation is a major problem here.

What irks me in particular is the fact that for an entire 18 month period, the press, especially the right-wing press, has championed journalistic freedom and anti-censorship movements, yet wail at the first notion of publicising something which doesn't fall into line with their ideology. Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead. And so is freedom of the press, because it's only free when it suits the publication in question, it seems. Not that it's without its problems, but I applaud the BBC everyday for doing what it does. It's one of the few outlets that publishes articles which report criticism of itself.

Anyway, we could argue the toss on Thatcher all day. ANC, Section 28, Pinochet.

I too am an emergent service worker, which I take to mean "Working class scum, but tried hard to better himself. Scum."

The Philpotts. Unbelievable. And so is the ideological scapegoating. Osborne sickens me. Let me put it this way, I'm like the Philpott children; I've been raised on a fair old amount of welfare, for one reason or another. Only difference between me and those poor souls is that my parents haven't tried to immolate me in my own home.

Therefore, welfare is good, m'kay?

/logik

 

[TyrrellRacing]

I would like to see a poll of Thatcher supporters who support the BBC not playing the full song. I'd estimate its >20%. Also since the BBC is a public service, self criticism is to be expected.

 

[Liquid]

Not denying that it's a public service, but BBC is a QUANGO, just like the NHS.

Channel 4 is also partially funded out of the television tax; something I feel is frequently overlooked.

 

[Liquid]

Why is Kingston-upon-Hull commonly called Hull? And not Kingston, or even Kingstown? It's an exception to the observation that -upon-river towns are known by the name of the actual town/city and not the river. Stratford-upon-Avon is known as Stratford, Newcastle-upon-Tyne is known as Newcastle, as is Newcastle-under-Lyme and Berwick-upon-Tweed is known as Berwick. Even Bangor-on-Dee is known as Bangor.

Always bugged me, this.

Inb4 "Why isn't Hull known as 'Mackrel filled sink hole'?

 

[Lizard]

Why is Kingston-upon-Hull commonly called Hull? And not Kingston, ]

Because Kingston is the common name for Kingston upon Thames.

 

[Liquid]

But even in my post, there was an example of two river towns sharing the same name...

A bit like Watford, Watford and Watford. And there're two Bangors in North Wales.

 

[Keef]

So let me get this straight:

1. She supported sound fiscal policy and small government, among other Austrian-style economic policies.
   
2. Though she aligned England with the US militarily, she opposed Reagan's ridiculous invasion of...Bravada? Sonata? Some pointless little Carribean country that was a complete waste of time and money.
   
3. She opposed the idea of a united Europe. Apparently she valued national sovereignty.

Well. She sounds like an absolute genius to me. Like a Ron Paul with tits. Why would anybody complain about her unless they were a socialist commie?

 

[Liquid]

For all the positives she brought in, she had love-ins with Augusto Pinochet, it emerged her government tried to cover up the Hillsborough disaster by blaming it on the deceased, in certain areas of the country she took away pretty much all employment without having anything to supplant it, did not oppose apartheid, did oppose German reunification, sold off council houses resulting in unaffordable landlording and no cheap housing, her government tried to bring in the anti-homosexual Section 28 and then there were the poll tax riots.

 

[Keef]

in certain areas of the country she took away pretty much all employment without having anything to supplant it

How did she do that? It doesn't seem very Austrian for a government to remove employment, nor for them to provide it.

did not oppose apartheid

I didn't oppose it because I didn't even know what it was until now. Neither the UK nor the US, among others, have signed the ISCPCA. I suppose that if it mattered people would be organizing a movement to get the government to sign it 40 years after everybody else did.

did oppose German reunification

Thankfully it went through though - somebody is going to have to take over all these silly European countries and keep them alive.

sold off council houses resulting in unaffordable landlording and no cheap housing

Life, liberty, property...I don't see anything about a free house in that list and neither do Austrian economists or any firm in a market economy. It never should have existed in the first place. Here in the US the introduction of public housing projects has typically led to nothing but the ruin of surrounding areas, leading to the eventual relocation of the public housing, leading to the ruin of the new surrounding areas, and all the while the old public housing area remains neglected for decades because nobody wants to live or do business there because it had not been maintained while the public housing existed and therefore that section of town remains vacant for decades until a Federal bailout comes to the city allowing them to use public money to rejuvinate an area that the public has no interest in...

Public housing is a bad thing and there's never a good way to deal with it.

her government tried to bring in the anti-homosexual Section 28

I wouldn't want to encourage people to become gay either! How the hell are we supposed to advance our species if everyone is gay?

and then there were the poll tax riots.

So what you're telling me is that a flat percentage rate tax for everybody - all the people paying the same portion - is a bad idea? I'm not sure any Austrian economist would agree with that. Hell, I don't think any mathematician would agree with that. I'm pretty sure 10% is 10% whether you're rich or poor. I think these riots were spurred on by socialist commies who either can't do basic math or weren't motivated enough to advance their position in life.

Basically you're telling me the only people who didn't like her were socialist commies which I had already inferred. I don't see socialist communism as a good thing but I can't speak for you.

 

[Omnis]

Can we talk about Amanda Thatcher now? I'd like to be the porphyrin to her iron moiety, if you know what I mean.

HEEMMMMEEEEEE!

 

[DK]

Because Kingston is the common name for Kingston upon Thames.

It's weird that you mention that, I was born there.

For all the positives she brought in, she had love-ins with Augusto Pinochet, it emerged her government tried to cover up the Hillsborough disaster by blaming it on the deceased, in certain areas of the country she took away pretty much all employment without having anything to supplant it, did not oppose apartheid, did oppose German reunification, sold off council houses resulting in unaffordable landlording and no cheap housing, her government tried to bring in the anti-homosexual Section 28 and then there were the poll tax riots.

Oh, and she stated in 1999 that "the Irish were all liars".

 

[axletramp]

"the Irish were all liars"

That's clearly not fair. You're all too drunk to lie convincingly.

 

[Hun200kmh]

It's weird that you mention that, I was born there.


Oh, and Peter Mandelson claims she stated in 1999 that "the Irish were all liars".

It is such a stupid generalization that you have to wonder if Thatcher was stupid, if that even comes as an option about someone that was the UK's Prime Minister for that many years.

Of course, whatever she said about Irish liars might be about the Irish politicians he was going to deal with. And then what she said is probably what the Irish think too (about their politicians).

Or she might be talking specifically about labour Irish politicians

Either way, Mr. Peter Mandelson seems to be a very astute person, and you gotta love the way he says this:

“But the truth is also that in cutting back the state necessarily, she overlooked what the state can also do successfully.”

We have many words in portuguese to define this sort of generalization in political language. Sadly, I didn't learn English in school good enough to find a suitable translation. Basically, this means both nothing, everything and all in-between. It is easy to state, looks reasonable and doesn't tie him to any specific option, program or even ideal. Absolute zero, like politics nowadays has become.

 

[TheCracker]

Can we talk about Amanda Thatcher now? I'd like to be the porphyrin to her iron moiety, if you know what I mean.

Ding dong the witch is dead