Britain - The Official Thread

[Scaff]

I dunno if it's as simple as that, since you still have convictions of far-right kids too:

How did you read what I posted and assume it was 'all white kids getting off'?

That's without the fact your second example was also convicted of having child pornography!

I'd recommend listening to the Radio 5 series "The Shamima Begum Story" which covers her experience in great detail and includes interviews with her, her friends and other connected individuals (I've got 2 episodes left).

You assume I've not listened to something you've not even finished, rather presumptive.

It's obvious that her closeness with Sharmeena was a huge motivational influence, and ISIS propaganda was extremely sophisticated and worked perfectly on many fully developed adults. What's frustrating (to me, at least) is you can't really reach a conclusion on what she really believes now, as she's attempting to create a finished product that will facilitate her entry back into the UK and it's obvious that she's lying at certain points to sustain it (the most notable being when she is challenged on whether she watched beheading videos prior to leaving).

Not a single bit of which changes the high probability she was groomed, nor is thinking anything a crime, and as for watching a beheading video, if that's a standard then a lot of people who were teenagers during the 2000's and 2010' are heading to jail.

Ultimately, she should be brought back here and an investigation be carried out.

Indeed she should, and that's the crux of it.

Are you aware that the UK is now the country with the second highest incidences of stripping citizenship from its citizens? That the government keeps trying to weaken the laws around this? The current government has basically used this as a weaponised dog-whistle to its base, a base with a high proportion of far-right supporters.

To be clear, my view is that the UK should not be able to do so for anyone born here, and for those not born here who have citizenship it should be hard to do and have a very, very clear line of due-process. as any failure to do so will end up being misused, as Windrush should have made 100% clear.

 

[HenrySwanson]

How did you read what I posted and assume it was 'all white kids getting off'?

No, not that 'all white kids getting off', but that it could be a mitigating factor, which it definitely could be because of bias but it's probably not going to be the only factor. I don't know enough about the specifics of each case to say why those 2 you posted were thought of as victims (the only link I can see is a diagnosis of ASD) and the others convicted, but since they shared race/political alignment it might not be as strong a cause as it may first appear.

That's without the fact your second example was also convicted of having child pornography!

There are multiple people included in the 2nd link; the 2nd example in the second link was convicted of both terrorism and child porno.

You assume I've not listened to something you've not even finished, rather presumptive.

Sorry that recommendation was for everyone, not specifically to you.

Not a single bit of which changes the high probability she was groomed, nor is thinking anything a crime, and as for watching a beheading video, if that's a standard then a lot of people who were teenagers during the 2000's and 2010' are heading to jail.

She may have been. And I'm not condoning thought-crime. What I'm saying is it's disappointing she wasn't upfront and honest about everything she was feeling before going to Syria since she already admitted to watching the videos (which she later denies). And to be clear, watching them isn't the problem - I watched the Nick Berg video in my twenties - it's what you do subsequently armed with that information. I guess I really would have liked a sincere account of her thoughts when seeing those videos and how they compared to the "paradise" idea Sharmeena and ISIS propaganda was feeding her. But this isn't unique to her; many prisoners maintain their innocence even after they've been found guilty. Maybe I was naive to expect a candid account similar to an Edmund Kemper or something.

Are you aware that the UK is now the country with the second highest incidences of stripping citizenship from its citizens? That the government keeps trying to weaken the laws around this?

That is interesting.

 

[Scaff]

No, not that 'all white kids getting off', but that it could be a mitigating factor, which it definitely could be because of bias but it's probably not going to be the only factor. I don't know enough about the specifics of each case to say why those 2 you posted were thought of as victims (the only link I can see is a diagnosis of ASD) and the others convicted, but since they shared race/political alignment it might not be as strong a cause as it may first appear.

Do you have any examples of it working the other way? I've not been able to find any.

There are multiple people included in the 2nd link; the 2nd example in the second link was convicted of both terrorism and child porno.

Two specific accounts are detailed, it's hardly multiple.

Sorry that recommendation was for everyone, not specifically to you.

Fair enough

She may have been. And I'm not condoning thought-crime. What I'm saying is it's disappointing she wasn't upfront and honest about everything she was feeling before going to Syria since she already admitted to watching the videos (which she later denies). And to be clear, watching them isn't the problem - I watched the Nick Berg video in my twenties - it's what you do subsequently armed with that information. I guess I really would have liked a sincere account of her thoughts when seeing those videos and how they compared to the "paradise" idea Sharmeena and ISIS propaganda was feeding her. But this isn't unique to her; many prisoners maintain their innocence even after they've been found guilty.

A good number of explanations exist for it, none of which justify revoking someone's citizenship.

Maybe I was naive to expect a candid account similar to an Edmund Kemper or something.

That's an odd comparison to jump to...

That is interesting.

Interesting isn't the word I'd use, terrifying would be

 

[HenrySwanson]

Do you have any examples of it working the other way? I've not been able to find any.

Looking at instances of grooming in terrorist cases I see the two you brought up and this one (another individual with ASD). The apparent disparity could be because the cases aren't prosecuted and so don't make the news, or maybe it could be due to differences between the demographics of far-right and Islamist terrorists. For example:

Assistant commissioner Matt Jukes said that 19 out of 20 children aged under 18 who were arrested last year for terrorism offences were linked to an extreme rightwing ideology.

Those falling for rightwing hate and then breaking terror laws were younger than those falling for Islamist hate, according to Jukes, the Met police’s head of counter-terrorism.

A good number of explanations exist for it, none of which justify revoking someone's citizenship.

Yeah there's no justification now (even the terror watchdog agrees).

But we know her story has changed from those initial interviews compared to her most recent ones. In the past, she freely admitted to watching beheadings before jetting off to Syria yet is now adamant that she only saw the Jordanian Pilot burning video, and when pressed on what she thought of that when she first saw it she responded that Sharmeena assured her it was fake (which is entirely believable - I had doubts of the Berg video's authenticity). If she'd stuck to the original story and elaborated on what her reaction was to seeing those other videos it wouldn't have been so shady, so that's disappointing.

That's an odd comparison to jump to...

Aside from coming across as very intelligent, he was also very open about his past crimes in the interview I saw.

 

[R55NA]

Britain.

What a terrible country.

I can't wait to leave it... I just need to win the Euromillions.

 

[Touring Mars]

Answers on a postcard if you understand what this graphic is supposed to mean...



Our Prime Minister, folks...

 

[Blitz24]

Answers on a postcard if you understand what this graphic is supposed to mean...



Our Prime Minister, folks...

So does that mean that slavery isn't illegal in the UK if you are illegal?

 

[Keef]

So does that mean that slavery isn't illegal in the UK if you are illegal?

That's what it suggests on the bullet point but the graphic suggests that it is in fact a full-fledged slavery system. Interns knocked this one out of the park lol.

 

[Famine]

So does that mean that slavery isn't illegal in the UK if you are illegal?

Yep. In essence, under this plan if you're trafficked over here illegally into slavery and get discovered, you get sent back home. There are zero protections for illegally trafficked victims of slavery.

Which does make me wonder if the traffickers can be prosecuted for it now, if the victims aren't really victims.

 

[Blitz24]

Yep. In essence, under this plan if you're trafficked over here illegally into slavery and get discovered, you get sent back home. There are zero protections for illegally trafficked victims of slavery.

Which does make me wonder if the traffickers can be prosecuted for it now, if the victims aren't really victims.

I guess slavery has not died yet in Britain. Old habits die-hard sadly.

 

[Famine]

I guess slavery has not died yet in Britain. Old habits die-hard sadly.

It hasn't died yet anywhere, despite the UK joining the USA in outlawing it in 1807 and using the full force of Royal Navy to seize slave ships.

We all have people illegally trafficked as sex workers, drug den workers, farm labourers - among others. There's an estimated 400,000 people in slavery in the USA, while the UK estimated 10,000 people here - but non-governmental estimates are much higher in both cases.

 

[Touring Mars]

The Tories are in total disarray over how to stop illegal migrants arriving on small boats...

The UK Obersturmführer Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, explained on Sky News earlier that people are "dying to try and get here", but added that "They are breaking our laws, they are abusing the generosity of the British people and we now need to ensure that they are deterred from doing that"... if people are willing to risk their lives to cross the Channel, I'm not sure that her policies are going to do much to deter people from trying; and it sure as hell will not deter the people traffickers one iota.

Braverman has also been widely condemned/ridiculed for said that "100 million" illegal migrants could come to the UK, and that "likely billions" would like to...

 

[Famine]

Braverman has also been widely condemned/ridiculed for said that "100 million" illegal migrants could come to the UK, and that "likely billions" would like to...

Some proper Diane Abbott/MagicTheGathering numbers there.

 

[Danoff]

abusing the generosity of the British people

That's the sentiment that gets trotted out in America as well. Meanwhile, immigrant labor is quite valuable, so valuable that it gets smuggled.

 

[Scaff]

It hasn't died yet anywhere, despite the UK joining the USA in outlawing it in 1807

To be fair to the US, they did leave a nice little loophole in place so they could still do it.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Match of the Day to air without presenter or pundits after Gary Lineker’s suspension

BBC commentators also refusing to appear after corporation takes its highest-paid presenter off air over impartiality concerns

www.theguardian.com

 

[Liquid]

Yeah, harrass the sports presenters and not the lawmakers.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Meanwhile, Fiona Bruce is trivialising domestic abuse by excusing Knighthood candidate Stanley Johnson of only breaking his wife's nose once, on actual TV.

 

[Touring Mars]

Match of the Day to air without presenter or pundits after Gary Lineker’s suspension

BBC commentators also refusing to appear after corporation takes its highest-paid presenter off air over impartiality concerns

www.theguardian.com

He has, in fact, been "told" he is not presenting MOTD for the time being...

However, co-presenters Ian Wright, Alan Shearer and Alex Scott have all pulled out of the show in protest at the decision.

I'm glad - Lineker is entitled to air his opinions on social media, and I strongly believe that the BBC have made a serious error of judgement here. The BBC is in a difficult position, what with their 'impartiality' rules and all, but they also need to get with the times and appreciate that major celebrities and sporting legends have a social media presence too. At this rate, MOTD will be presented by Suella Braverman this weekend.

 

[UKMikey]

So he likened them to Nazis and they just shut down his press presence? Way to disprove his point, Tories.

 

[Famine]

A fun factor in all of this is the fact Lineker's Tweeting is a way of demonstrating that he isn't a BBC employee...

... for tax purposes:

Gary Lineker’s political tweets could help him avoid £4.9m tax bill

Presenter’s tweets on Brexit and Tories could form part of case that he is not a typical BBC or BT Sport employee

www.theguardian.com

Gary Lineker’s lawyers say HMRC tax inquiry ‘looking in the wrong place’

HMRC is pursuing the Match of the Day host for £4.9m that it said should have been paid on income

www.theguardian.com

 

[Touring Mars]

What's sad and even quite shocking is that the BBC's decision to suspend Gary Lineker is arguably not even their worst decision of the day:

BBC will not broadcast Attenborough episode over fear of ‘rightwing backlash’

Exclusive: Decision to make episode about natural destruction available only on iPlayer angers programme-makers

www.theguardian.com

 

[Famine]

What's sad and even quite shocking is that the BBC's decision to suspend Gary Lineker is arguably not even their worst decision of the day:

BBC will not broadcast Attenborough episode over fear of ‘rightwing backlash’

Exclusive: Decision to make episode about natural destruction available only on iPlayer angers programme-makers

www.theguardian.com

This appears to not be true - and the headline is contradicted in the piece itself now...

Alastair Fothergill, the director of Silverback Films and the executive producer of Wild Isles, added: “The BBC commissioned a five-part Wild Isles series from us at Silverback Films back in 2017. The RSPB and WWF joined us as co-production partners in 2018.

It was not until the end of 2021 that the two charities commissioned Silverback Films to make a film for them that celebrates the extraordinary work of people fighting to restore nature in Britain and Ireland. The BBC acquired this film for iPlayer at the start of this year.”

 

[Touring Mars]

Yes, it does look like they were/are separate things originally and that there wasn't a decision made to 'drop an episode', however the decision to leave the 'film' on iPlayer - which could well be Attenborough's last piece of TV for the BBC - is very strange. Ironically, the amount of publicity it will now get is likely to send its ratings through the roof.

As for MOTD, the BBC are to air the programme with no presenters tomorrow, a decision which is likely to further inflame the situation.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Jesus Tiberius Krist I hate this country.

This whole Lineker thing. I don't even like Lineker, but the way both sides are trying to spin it... it's so emblematic of black & white politics, which inevitably ends in hypocrisy on both sides, and no winners. "Defund the BBC" cry the right wingers that post links to the Daily Mail, "Defund the BBC" cry the people that think Lineker is being unfairly punished...

... meanwhile the pro-right media billionaires sit in the corner rubbing their hands and filling out their ledgers as both eventualities play out in their favour. Lineker gets labelled as someone with a political opinion on the tax payers payroll by gammon xenophobic *****, yet the bloated feckless house of Lords, and the self serving cabinet/ex-cabinet members that are literally our political establishment line their pockets at the tax payers expense and go largely un-noticed whilst shagger Johnson nominates clubber Johnson to receive an unelected Monarch wankers highest public honour.

Tories.exe

 

[Famine]

As for MOTD, the BBC are to air the programme with no presenters tomorrow, a decision which is likely to further inflame the situation.

I suspect it'll be the most popular episode ever. I'm no moneyball fan, but highlights of all the matches without studio segment padding and the ****-brained musings of Alan "I once thought a man's head was a football, honest" Shearer sounds like bliss.

Though this wasn't the row over immigration I'd have thought affected the 75% foreign-owned Premier League* and its 65% non-British starting elevens.


*I'm aware my club is also owned by a Thai fish-canning tycoon. We do at least see him most match days...

 

[MatskiMonk]

Jonathan Pie..

Spoiler: Swearing

Spoiler: 1 × 'S' word

Spoiler: 10 × 'F' word

... fairly consistently nails it.

 

[UKMikey]

Why is Gary Lineker allowed to criticise the human rights record of Qatar but not the human rights record of the country he lives in?

 

[Liquid]

 

[Touring Mars]

Every time I see a familiar face on GB News (which is not often, as I only ever see it via Twitter videos like that posted above), I always think "What the hell happened to them?" - I remember quite liking Mark Dolan years ago, but now he is a colossal prick. Granted, he was probably a colossal prick beforehand too, but now he's actually being a colossal prick for a living.