Britain - The Official Thread
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HenrySwanson
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She makes a good point.
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Love this women. Absolute gem.
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Liz Truss expected to launch political comeback on Sunday
Former PM whose No 10 stint ended after 49 days understood to have written piece for Sunday Telegraph
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Yeah, but what about the lettuce? Any news on it's comeback?
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They've had a strangle hold on office for far too long and the media are not inclined to push towards anything else, even though the tories are leaning further and further right with every new PM. The centre/left will have to present someone who comes across like a tory PM for the public to be swayed, but they're unlikely to do so, and honestly, shouldn't have to. Prospects for any real positive change are increasingly bleak.
Roo
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It's like 1997 all over again.
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They might, because there's no good actual alternative. I cannot vote for Labour in it's current state. The fact that we have a choice between far right and right of centre is depressing. Two party politics sucks.
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I've had food poisoning powered bowel movements that were a better alternative to another term of the liars, fraudsters and self-serving scumbags that we've allowed to takeover the country.
It's also unfortunate that neither of those two parties want to end FPTP.
... only one thing for it.
UKMikey
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How to be a human roadblock: refuse to work with people who want to reduce pollution, don't do anything yourself, don't devolve powers to people who want to do your job for you and refuse to release any data that supports your conclusions.
Therese Coffey is a festering pustule on the arse of humanity.
Therese Coffey is a festering pustule on the arse of humanity.
HenrySwanson
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Big news from Scotland..
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That news being....?
Nicola Sturgeon resigns as Scottish First Minister.
Nicola Sturgeon resigns as Scottish First Minister.
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Quite a shock, but I reckon Nicola Sturgeon's handling of the Gender Recognition Reform (GRR) bill and the resulting debacle over gender self-identification pretty much made her position as First Minister untenable.
I fundamentally disagree with Sturgeon and the SNP on their core policy of Scottish independence, and Sturgeon has allowed this issue to continue to dominate the SNP agenda, even when they really ought to have benched it and focused on other things, like running the country better.
I'm glad to see her stepping down, but I admire her abilities as a politician, and very much respect her decision to stand down - plenty of world leaders, past, present and wannabes - could and should take a leaf out of her book and act with the same amount of decorum as Sturgeon has.
I fundamentally disagree with Sturgeon and the SNP on their core policy of Scottish independence, and Sturgeon has allowed this issue to continue to dominate the SNP agenda, even when they really ought to have benched it and focused on other things, like running the country better.
I'm glad to see her stepping down, but I admire her abilities as a politician, and very much respect her decision to stand down - plenty of world leaders, past, present and wannabes - could and should take a leaf out of her book and act with the same amount of decorum as Sturgeon has.
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Has anyone else read the news about Shamima Begum having her citizenship removal upheld? I don't have a qualified opinion on the topic, I think it is way more complex than most people seem to think, but I have one question on the subject that, because people have such a definitive, binary opinion on it, not many people seem to be addressing:
How young does someone have to be where it is agreed by a supermajority that that person was taken advantage of or otherwise too immature to appreciate the gravity of what they've done?
Begum was trafficked out of England at the age of 15 and at the age of 20 said in an interview that the Manchester Arena bombings were justified. That's a horrific thing to say and I disagree with it completely. But I assume that she was influenced before she was trafficked. If that influence started... at 12 years of age? At 8 years of age? At 4 years of age? Where is the line?
Edit: And of course, she isn't the only ISIS recruit from the UK who has had subsequent citizenship issues but this is the one that stirs the most 🤬.
How young does someone have to be where it is agreed by a supermajority that that person was taken advantage of or otherwise too immature to appreciate the gravity of what they've done?
Begum was trafficked out of England at the age of 15 and at the age of 20 said in an interview that the Manchester Arena bombings were justified. That's a horrific thing to say and I disagree with it completely. But I assume that she was influenced before she was trafficked. If that influence started... at 12 years of age? At 8 years of age? At 4 years of age? Where is the line?
Edit: And of course, she isn't the only ISIS recruit from the UK who has had subsequent citizenship issues but this is the one that stirs the most 🤬.
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It's a tricky one because there are grey areas everywhere in Begum's case.
She was 'trafficked' to some extent, but she and her friends also left the UK of their own accord... they were radicalised to some extent as well, but it's not clear that any particular individual or group radicalised them specifically, let alone someone with nefarious intent i.e. to my knowledge anyway, they were not simply victims of specific people who targeted them for sexual trafficking from the outset. The extent to which they radicalised each other/themselves is not clear, but I'd be very surprised if it was zero.
Are they entirely to blame for what happened to them/what they did? I guess not. But, by the same token, I'd say that a good chunk of the responsibility for their actions - from allowing themselves to become radicalised to voluntarily travelling to Turkey before entering Syria - lies with the girls themselves.
Where do you draw the line? Well, the age of criminal responsibility is 10 in the UK, and hence by 14/15, it is safe to assume that people know that they are breaking the law. They were stupid, they were naive, they were deceived and they were exploited - but they were also knowingly involving themselves in 'jihad', and for that they do bear responsibility.
She was 'trafficked' to some extent, but she and her friends also left the UK of their own accord... they were radicalised to some extent as well, but it's not clear that any particular individual or group radicalised them specifically, let alone someone with nefarious intent i.e. to my knowledge anyway, they were not simply victims of specific people who targeted them for sexual trafficking from the outset. The extent to which they radicalised each other/themselves is not clear, but I'd be very surprised if it was zero.
Are they entirely to blame for what happened to them/what they did? I guess not. But, by the same token, I'd say that a good chunk of the responsibility for their actions - from allowing themselves to become radicalised to voluntarily travelling to Turkey before entering Syria - lies with the girls themselves.
Where do you draw the line? Well, the age of criminal responsibility is 10 in the UK, and hence by 14/15, it is safe to assume that people know that they are breaking the law. They were stupid, they were naive, they were deceived and they were exploited - but they were also knowingly involving themselves in 'jihad', and for that they do bear responsibility.
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I think its clear that her case is being used as an example/threat to others potentially being radicalised. If the government are shown to be happy playing hardball with a young, naive girl left alone in a refugee camp, they're not going to be any more lenient with a 17 year old man/boy who knowingly and willingly gets radicalised but then expects to be let back into Britain.
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I think she should absolutely face consequences for her actions, but removing citizenship is unjustified in my humble opinion.
Setting a precedent that you're not British by birthright even if you meet all the criteria, just because there might be some foreign blood inherited, is bad. Given the high levels of immigration over the last 20 or so years, there's now a lot of people born here that are British only at the whim of the Home secretary. I know to a degree that's the case anyway, but for instance, the government couldn't remove my citizenship as I'm at least several generations British on both sides, I'd be stateless and they can't do that. Descendants of migrants effectively become subject to different punishment and that's wrong - though it does mean a decent number of the Tory government could have their citizenship removed if they were a threat to national security... hmmmm... toddle-the-****-along Braverman.
It sounds like we can't just lock her up here anyway, seemingly for reasons of jurisdiction and lack of actual evidence - which seems a bit crazy too. But it seems like we've got a much bigger headache if she's let back in, than we do if we just keep her out, so I can see why the actions been taken.
Setting a precedent that you're not British by birthright even if you meet all the criteria, just because there might be some foreign blood inherited, is bad. Given the high levels of immigration over the last 20 or so years, there's now a lot of people born here that are British only at the whim of the Home secretary. I know to a degree that's the case anyway, but for instance, the government couldn't remove my citizenship as I'm at least several generations British on both sides, I'd be stateless and they can't do that. Descendants of migrants effectively become subject to different punishment and that's wrong - though it does mean a decent number of the Tory government could have their citizenship removed if they were a threat to national security... hmmmm... toddle-the-****-along Braverman.
It sounds like we can't just lock her up here anyway, seemingly for reasons of jurisdiction and lack of actual evidence - which seems a bit crazy too. But it seems like we've got a much bigger headache if she's let back in, than we do if we just keep her out, so I can see why the actions been taken.
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This is the part that conflicts me the most. Do 15 year old girls go on trains to elope with their teachers of their own accord? Of course they do. Do we as a society accept that it's truly of their own accord or do we see that their frames of reference are entirely altered by malicious, knowing, adult influence?
Begum should be tried for her crimes, and she has certainly committed them in my opinion, but she should be treated as a British citizen and given the lassitude of a British prison cell. There may be a view that her eventual release would bring a potential influencer into British society, but to my mind she's a free martyr right now and in a far better position to extend influence, if that even continues to be her wish.
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Sorry for the OT but nice to see you around Ten 👍
Scaff
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Unless it's white kids getting radicalised by the far-right, then they are victims, which they are, but so are all radicalised kids.
Rhianan Rudd: MI5 had evidence teen terror suspect was exploited
The girl, who took her own life, should have been seen as a victim not a terrorist, her mum says.
www.bbc.co.uk
'Terror threat' boy spared custody over synagogue bomb Twitter post
Custody is not "in the public interest" for a boy who said he would bomb a synagogue, a magistrate says.
www.bbc.co.uk
The latest legal case is quite clear that reasonable suspicion exists that she (and the two others) were traffiked and sexually exploited by a particular group, it also was quite clear that the authorities failed in their protective duties and that MI5 downplayed the level of radicallisation and grooming...
"The court also ruled that the UK’s “protective duties” may have been violated when Begum’s school, police and the local council failed to prevent her from travelling to Isis territories after one of her friends did the same.
Mr Justice Jay voiced concern that MI5 had “downplayed the significance of radicalisation and grooming”, even while admitting that what happened to Begum was “not unusual”.
The judge said that “reasonable people will profoundly disagree” with Sajid Javid’s decision to remove Begum’s British citizenship in 2019." Source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ficked-isis-sexual-exploitation-b2287356.html
...despite how this is being reported in some quarters, the ruling was clear that grooming did occur, and it's damning in that regard and the authority's failures to protect, the judge didn't overrule simply because Javid's actions were legal, as in it's within the government's powers to do so.
Let's also not forget that they were smuggled across the Syrian border by a Canadian spy!
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HenrySwanson
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I dunno if it's as simple as that, since you still have convictions of far-right kids too:Unless it's white kids getting radicalised by the far-right, then they are victims, which they are, but so are all radicalised kids.
Rhianan Rudd: MI5 had evidence teen terror suspect was exploited
The girl, who took her own life, should have been seen as a victim not a terrorist, her mum says.www.bbc.co.uk'Terror threat' boy spared custody over synagogue bomb Twitter post
Custody is not "in the public interest" for a boy who said he would bomb a synagogue, a magistrate says.www.bbc.co.uk
14-year-old boy one of youngest in UK to be convicted of terror charges
Boy, who cannot be named because of his age, charged with possessing a terrorist publication
Counterterror police chief warns of ‘new and worrying trend’ of teenage neo-Nazis
Coronavirus has created a ‘perfect storm’ for online radicalisation, Neil Basu says
www.independent.co.uk
I'd recommend listening to the Radio 5 series "The Shamima Begum Story" which covers her experience in great detail and includes interviews with her, her friends and other connected individuals (I've got 2 episodes left). It's obvious that her closeness with Sharmeena was a huge motivational influence, and ISIS propaganda was extremely sophisticated and worked perfectly on many fully developed adults. What's frustrating (to me, at least) is you can't really reach a conclusion on what she really believes now, as she's attempting to create a finished product that will facilitate her entry back into the UK and it's obvious that she's lying at certain points to sustain it (the most notable being when she is challenged on whether she watched beheading videos prior to leaving). This contrasts with the interesting story she tells of her background and experiences on her journey. I can't blame her though - one of the jailed ISIS fighters who is interviewed also comes across this way, although that's more comical as he insists he only travelled to Mosul from Syria for....ice cream.
Ultimately, she should be brought back here and an investigation be carried out.
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