Britain - The Official Thread

[sumbrownkid]

The bystander effect played its hand no doubt but to see something this grizzly in front of your eyes, I can imagine feeling hollow after this.

 

[Dotini]

Helpless as a fly trapped in amber.

 

[Liquid]

I just watched the video. That's pathetic. Now, some of you know that I don't believe anybody should ever be compelled to help anybody in danger for any reason because that's akin to slavery. But let's be honest, most decent people have an innate desire to help. I'm not appalled at the fact that these people didn't help, more at the fact that they couldn't help because their ability to do so had been stripped...either by their government, or by themselves because they are who the government derives it's power from.

If this had happened in the US it's very likely an armed citizens would have taken control of the situation rather quickly. I know that because it's happened numerous times. You lot should probably take a good look at why these people weren't able to help, and then remove that roadblock so you don't have to sit around and wait for the rent-a-cops to come whistling loudly in their goofy hats.

Bystander effect.

Maybe those people wanted to help, but psychologically couldn't or wouldn't.

It's a powerful thing.

 

[Yukon]

I always make sure I'm in control of my emotions when listening to stories like this. However, I couldn't help become filled with absolute disgust and hate towards the two men that did this. They're sick. They're completely disgusting.

When I heard about this yesterday, the description I heard first was the following:

"Male in his early twenties, currently serving in the armed forces, hacked to death in the South of England."

I was honestly terrified that there may have been the slightest chance this could've been my brother. I had never feared once for his safety whilst he was in this country, until now. What's their excuse for this act? Religion? It's disgusting. The way they brandish their weapons like what they've just committed is totally acceptable and justified. I can't even comprehend how his family feel right now.

Just wrong, purely and simply wrong.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Apparently the croissant was made in celebration of the defeat of Umayyad forces in Tours or Ottoman forces in Vienna, so it is not an example of Islam instilling their culture into a vanquished nation. No mention of the Islamic origins of calzone either.

I said could have an impact, so don't go and insert words into my mouth.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Beg to differ. Terrorism has always had pretty much the same meaning since it first came into vogue in the 60's and 70's and its always been clear that individual acts motivated by personal gain, rage or any other personal motives are not terrorism. When the act is done in the name of a political, religious cause it becomes terrorism. The reason the focus is on Islam these days is because they commit the majority of terrorist acts. Period.

I,Along with most people just want the facts and am perfectly capable of making up my own mind. I don't want the media deciding for me what facts will overwhelm "gullible" people like me and only reporting that which I can discern the truth from with my limited mental capacity. Truth is, he comitted this act as a Muslim in the name of Islam. If people infer from that that all Muslims are evil, your issue is with them, not the media.

The term terrorism was use far before that, don't mix pop-culture's use of it with historical sense. Also if you want to see one-sided reporting that cast muslim's as a great evil, watch Bill O'Reiley, Glen Beck, Bill Maher, Shaun Hannity, Lou Dobbs to start out.

Media standards on framing Islam after 9/11
Britian's mainly focused media driven at Anti-Islam sentiment

I could give you more peer read articles if those don't do enough for you. Since they are educational pieces from University databases, that I use in my political class assignments or have seen others use.

Somebody clearly doesn't understand religious history, in particular, Islamic history. When the Islamic Empire was at its peak, the Muslims would infuse, much like the Romans would several centuries earlier, their culture into the vanquished nation. This not only affected religious beliefs in that area, but one might make the case culinary speaking as well. Take as way of two examples, the Calzone in Italy and Croissant from France. Both dishes honor Islam by maintaining a half-moon shape, more so to the Ottoman flag, and later Algeria, Brunei, and most muslim nations.

I actually understand it quite well, your post does nothing to rebuke anything I've said. You just state a view but don't address where I have misgivings on the religion. So I wonder if you missed my point, which was that the media should stay out of the business of sensationalizing reports with key phrases to stir anger, panic, or any type of knee jerk reaction in the wake.

I said could have an impact, so don't go and insert words into my mouth.

Yet what is archived (unless you can show otherwise), says different. You implied it had, you used absolutes, you didn't give any wiggle room that would suggest you didn't fully believe what you said.

Thanks F1GTR.

Lets not go down that road again, we've covered it quite a few times in various threads.

I understand not beating a dead horse, but in this instance one could infer that if able, this act may have been stopped. Especially when in the end it resulted in the two killers being shot either way. However, you're right and I digress.

 

[F1GTR]

I said could have an impact, so don't go and insert words into my mouth.

Somebody clearly doesn't understand religious history, in particular, Islamic history. When the Islamic Empire was at its peak, the Muslims would infuse, much like the Romans would several centuries earlier, their culture into the vanquished nation. This not only affected religious beliefs in that area, but one might make the case culinary speaking as well. Take as way of two examples, the Calzone in Italy and Croissant from France. Both dishes honor Islam by maintaining a half-moon shape, more so to the Ottoman flag, and later Algeria, Brunei, and most muslim nations.

Why would I need to insert words when they're already there? Yes, you might draw links between conquest and cuisine, but not when you are so obviously wrong with your use of examples since no vanquishing actually happened in those areas. The displacement or influence of native culture is self evident in colonialism anyway, not sure exactly what point you were trying to make.

Thanks F1GTR.

No problem. 👍

Anyway, back to the current topic, it seems that the conspiracy nuts have jumped on this incident too, but they did some shoddy colour correction to try and prove their point. Absolutely disgraceful.

 

[Keef]

The bystander effect played its hand no doubt but to see something this grizzly in front of your eyes, I can imagine feeling hollow after this.

Bystander effect.

Maybe those people wanted to help, but psychologically couldn't or wouldn't.

It's a powerful thing.

It's plausible but I wouldn't chalk it up to that without studying it first. While most people in such an environment - crowded, urban, typically decent - might stand idly by in the US also, most of the people in that environment won't have the ability to help not only because self-defense weapons are typically not allowed in those environments, but because most people in general don't carry self-defense weapons even when they can. Is it a "bystander effect" or is it the subconscious knowledge that they simply can't help? Are they stunned or are they aware that it's not only a ridiculous situation but they're utterly unprepared for it? It's not uncommon for people here who do carry self-defense weapons to step into the situation. Is it because they're hardasses and think they can keep everybody in line? Is it because they're aware of what's going on, they want to help, and know that they have the ability to? Maybe it's something even deeper psychologically - maybe the type of person who wouldn't carry a weapon and the type of person who would have fundamental personality differences which effect their ability to perceive the world around them and act appropriately in a relatively stable manner.

I don't know. It would be an interesting study. All I know is, bystander effect my ass.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I feel bad for his family too, you just don't kill someone for no reason and then try to apologize for people having to see it. Yet use the excuse it happens in Iraq to further justify it. If that's the case, go buy a plane ticket and do it in Iraq...bet yet do it to each other, but not some guy with a family that is just minding his own...or anyone in that case.

As if that man alone had had the utmost influence on that wars in Muslim majority nations?

 

[F1GTR]

Well the attackers first ran a car into the victim then went out and started hacking at him — witnesses say that they thought they were trying to help him at first — so perhaps by the time they realised that they weren't helping the victim it was too late? Also, the attackers didn't go on to harm more people, they were clearly lucid and were waiting for the police (any more action could have provoked the attackers further), I'd like to think if they continued to attack more people that others would at least try to tackle/mob them.

Also, the rapper/musician that I mentioned earlier turned down £75k to tell his story. Good on him:

http://metro.co.uk/2013/05/23/woolw...red-75000-for-his-eyewitness-account-3806490/

 

[Liquid]

I don't know. It would be an interesting study. All I know is, bystander effect my ass.

Well...

Maybe some people are afraid of legal repercussions of helping out, whereas others are legitimately frozen with fear.

And some others are just plain arseholes.

The case of Kitty Genovese is often cited as an example of the "bystander effect". It is also the case that originally stimulated social psychological research in this area. On March 13, 1964 Genovese, 28 years old, was on her way back to her Queens, New York, apartment from work at 3am when she was stabbed to death by a serial rapist and murderer. According to newspaper accounts, the attack lasted for at least a half an hour during which time Genovese screamed and pleaded for help. The murderer attacked Genovese and stabbed her, then fled the scene after attracting the attention of a neighbor. The killer then returned ten minutes later and finished the assault. Newspaper reports after Genovese's death claimed that 38 witnesses watched the stabbings and failed to intervene or even contact the police until after the attacker fled and Genovese had died. This led to widespread public attention, and many editorials.

On June 16, 2008, on a country road outside Turlock, California, friends, family and strangers, including a volunteer fire chief, stood by as Sergio Aguiar methodically stomped his two-year-old son Axel Casian to death, explaining in a calm voice that he "had to get the demons out" of the boy. He stopped at one point to turn on the hazard lights on his truck. No one moved to take the child or attack Aguiar. Witnesses said they were all afraid to intervene because Aguiar "might have something in his pocket", although some people looked for rocks or boards hoping to find something to subdue him. The fire chief's fiancee called 911. Police officer Jerry Ramar arrived by helicopter and told Aguiar to stop. Aguiar gave Ramar the finger and Ramar shot him in the head. Police officers and psychologists later explained that the inaction of the crowd was justified in that "ordinary people aren't going to tackle a psychotic," that they were not "psychologically prepared" to intervene, and that being frozen in indecision and fear is a normal reaction.

In April 2010 Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax was stabbed to death in New York City after coming to the aid of a woman who was being attacked by a robber. Yax was on the sidewalk for more than an hour before firefighters arrived. Almost twenty-five people walked by while he lay dying on a sidewalk in Queens, several stared at Yax; one of them took pictures, however none of them helped or called emergency services

In October 2011, a two-year-old girl, Wang Yue, was hit by a small, white van in the city of Foshan, China, then run over by a large truck when she was not moved by bystanders. A total of 18 people ignored her, some going so far as to walk around the blood. The girl was left for 7 minutes before a recycler, Chen Xianmei, picked up the toddler and called for help. The child died eight days later

In June 2008 49-year-old Esmin Green collapsed in the waiting room of Kings County Hospital Center in Brooklyn after waiting nearly 24 hours for treatment. She was ignored by other people present in the room and two security guards. She was helped after an hour passed but died. The hospital staff falsified their records to minimize the time she had lain on the floor unaided. Kings County Hospital had been previously cited for unsanitary conditions and patient neglect

---

Also, just watched Question Time.

There is some horrible irony in that Ian Paisley Jr. looks exactly like Jon Stewart.

 

[nealcropper]

Well, what a week.

First, the main news, which ties into another story from today. The gutless planks who butchered a hero in plain daylight, in viewing distance of a school, and in front of a lot of people.

They were quite obviously extremists, and were spouting about Allah. I know that all The people who have Islamic beliefs are not anything like these two scumbags, in fact all the Islamists I know have spoken out against these two. But why is it that people from this country can be radicalised seemingly so easily? And why is it always that they speak of Allah? When in fact the core belief of Islam is to honour all life?

There are obviously a lot of points to pick at here, but it all plays into, already upset "racists", in this country.

Which brings me to today's news. People have been targeting Mosques all over the country. One not so far from where I live. Obviously these people who are attacking mosque's don't fully understand their actions, and also the reactions that ensue.

But, people are getting more and more upset with the way that our government handles things like this, and not just this either. The immigration laws. How much more do we have to put up with? How will all this end?

Not well. Tensions are building on a daily basis. Honestly, not a single day goes by any more when I don't hear someone moaning about what's going on in this country at the moment. The financial status is almost secondary in people's minds.

Now I don't advocate any extreme actions by anyone, especially not by anyone from my own country. But just taking to the streets and protesting isn't doing any good. We need to take action. I don't mean violent action, I mean UKIP action.

They are not as bad as BNP, but their main policy's are what people want, it seems.

I can't see it lasting much longer to be honest.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Poppycock. Please provide links to these articles from mainstream, reputable news sources (not bloggers or rinky dink net news forums) who put across the idea that Islam is the cause of all the wrong in the world. I'd like to read them. Since you refer to it as a habit, please provide multiple references.

What tv personalities would you like me to give you, and from what event?
Because I could show you from 9/11, Fort Hood, UK Train bombings, Boston and this new one, just pick.

The term terrorism was use far before that, don't mix pop-culture's use of it with historical sense. Also if you want to see one-sided reporting that cast muslim's as a great evil, watch Bill O'Reiley, Glen Beck, Bill Maher, Shaun Hannity, Lou Dobbs to start out.

Media standards on framing Islam after 9/11
Britian's mainly focused media driven at Anti-Islam sentiment

I could give you more peer read articles if those don't do enough for you. Since they are educational pieces from University databases, that I use in my political class assignments or have seen others use.

Sorry dude, I'm not going to wade through studies, probably authored by some liberal with an axe to grind. You said you would provide videos from any of the incidents of Muslim Extremist Terrorism above, that show that major news media paint Muslims as the cause of all the evils of the world. Please do so.

And in case you don't know, Sean Hannity, Bill Maher, Glen Beck, Piers Morgan, Chris Matthews are not impartial news readers and don't pretend to be. They all have an axe to grind on one side of the fence or the other. They are entitled to their opinions one way or the other as we do have a free press. They are political commentators, they deliberately attempt to sway people to embrace their viewpoint. Everyone knows this. Anyone turning on their shows expecting impartial news coverage is not very bright. But even then, I would bet they have never painted Islam as the cause of all the problems of the world.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Sorry dude, I'm not going to wade through studies, probably authored by some liberal with an axe to grind. You said you would provide videos from any of the incidents of Muslim Extremist Terrorism above, that show that major news media paint Muslims as the cause of all the evils of the world. Please do so.

And you said you wanted links, these are educational pieces used for research and other formal projects. Thus the validity stands, you not wanting to read them and then openly saying so, shows a failing on your part. You further become impartial and somewhat ignorant by saying "probably authored by some liberal with an axe to grind", how would you even know if you refuse to read them. You saying that is the equivalent of what we said (about media) and then asking for proof. Double standards...

And in case you don't know, Sean Hannity, Bill Maher, Glen Beck, Piers Morgan, Chris Matthews are not impartial news readers and don't pretend to be. They all have an axe to grind on one side of the fence or the other. They are entitled to their opinions one way or the other as we do have a free press. They are political commentators, they deliberately attempt to sway people to embrace their viewpoint. Everyone knows this. Anyone turning on their shows expecting impartial news coverage is not very bright. But even then, I would bet they have never painted Islam as the cause of all the problems of the world.

It doesn't matter if they pretend or are dead serious, the fact that they perpetuate the notion and seem serious, is what fuels hate in viewers toward what they are ignorantly bashing to sell media. Are you that hard pressed for common sense? Most people expect actual news, a person shouldn't have filter a news source they turn to because it may be overly biased and for you to think it's okay is sad. Yet also ironic again, because you asked for us to show you impartial news, you now acknowledge that "yes it is impartial" without a single video. Thus to act as if media can't be impartial toward a religion even though you yourself say they are toward other subjects they cover. Also your concept of free press is bizarre, free press doesn't mean report whatever you want to make up or fill in facts, even The Onion tells people that they aren't real news and all their stories are made up.

 

[Johnnypenso]

blah blah blah..pretty much everything inferred incorrectly, misquoted or taken out of context...

This is exactly what I said, in response to someone else, not you.

"Please provide links to these articles from mainstream, reputable news sources (not bloggers or rinky dink net news forums) who put across the idea that Islam is the cause of all the wrong in the world".

You popped off without me asking anything of you directly and said, "What tv personalities would you like me to give you, and from what event?
Because I could show you from 9/11, Fort Hood, UK Train bombings, Boston and this new one, just pick".

I am still awaiting direct links to any mainstream newscast that "puts across the idea that Islam is the cause of all the wrong in the world". Not editorials or opinion pieces, but actual newscasts. You know, a guy at a desk reading the news, a reporter on the ground etc.

 

[Rage Racer]

I'm shocked about the police wasn't able to protect people. I've read that they were coming for about 20 minutes on the scene. The murderers could continue the massacre easily if they wanted to...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If this had happened in the US it's very likely an armed citizens would have taken control of the situation rather quickly.

An unarmed citizen took control of the situation in England. Ingrid Loyau-Kennett started talking to the perpetrators in the immediate aftermath of the attack. This is obviously what they wanted, since they started making political statements and made no move to attack anyone else.

I'm curious as to what you mean by an "armed citizen taking control of the situation", because there was clearly no point where they could actually intervene. They could not "take control" when the soldier was run down, because there was no immediate evidence of an attack; for all the bystanders knew, it was just someone who simply lost control of their car and hit a pedestrian. Nor could they "take control" during the frenzy of the stabbing, since that would likely draw the attention of other armed citizens who mistook them for being a part of the attack. And they could not "take control" after the attackers stopped, because the attackers themselves were armed and would likely fire back, and also because they made no move to attack anyone else.

So when, exactly, were they supposed to "take control of the situation"?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

This is exactly what I said, in response to someone else, not you.

"Please provide links to these articles from mainstream, reputable news sources (not bloggers or rinky dink net news forums) who put across the idea that Islam is the cause of all the wrong in the world".

You popped off without me asking anything of you directly and said, "What tv personalities would you like me to give you, and from what event?
Because I could show you from 9/11, Fort Hood, UK Train bombings, Boston and this new one, just pick".

I am still awaiting direct links to any mainstream newscast that "puts across the idea that Islam is the cause of all the wrong in the world". Not editorials or opinion pieces, but actual newscasts. You know, a guy at a desk reading the news, a reporter on the ground etc.

And I gave you something that isn't bloggers or what ever else you think they are because you are to lazy to read. How about you stop being myopic and read educational pieces that show sourced info on the media practicing such trends. Also if you want I will pm more videos (other than those below) to you since me trying to prove this really has nothing to do with Britain. How about that?

Also I doubt it would matter even if I did give you the videos because you'd come up with some asinine excuse like you did in the post prior to this. About how they are probably not serious. I didn't take anything out of context, you laid it out and came of ignorant and you only have yourself to blame. However, show me how it is out of context via pm.






Now Bill in the third video, says why do so many millions of muslims hate us, but then tries to take a safe route by saying "some" or "extremism". However, to him a vast number is Jihadist in nature or whatever you will...

 

[Grayfox]

Besides even if the people watching it.

How could they help?

A nut job with a meat clever, a butcher knife, and who knows what else and another nut job with a gun.

If you were in a car maybe you could have run them down but then you will be arrested for that as even terrorists have "human rights"

 

[Carbonox]

Besides even if the people watching it.

How could they help?

A nut job with a meat clever, a butcher knife, and who knows what else and another nut job with a gun.

If you were in a car maybe you could have run them down but then you will be arrested for that as even terrorists have "human rights"

I don't think I would care if I got arrested for running terrorists down with a car. Heck, in prison I could even be safe from any retaliation attacks.

 

[Grayfox]

I don't think I would care if I got arrested for running terrorists down with a car. Heck, in prison I could even be safe from any retaliation attacks.

Maybe not, depends where.

But many would see that kind of action as heroic.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

An unarmed citizen took control of the situation in England. Ingrid Loyau-Kennett started talking to the perpetrators in the immediate aftermath of the attack. This is obviously what they wanted, since they started making political statements and made no move to attack anyone else.

I'm curious as to what you mean by an "armed citizen taking control of the situation", because there was clearly no point where they could actually intervene. They could not "take control" when the soldier was run down, because there was no immediate evidence of an attack; for all the bystanders knew, it was just someone who simply lost control of their car and hit a pedestrian. Nor could they "take control" during the frenzy of the stabbing, since that would likely draw the attention of other armed citizens who mistook them for being a part of the attack. And they could not "take control" after the attackers stopped, because the attackers themselves were armed and would likely fire back, and also because they made no move to attack anyone else.

So when, exactly, were they supposed to "take control of the situation"?

Well then answer this (not that I agree with Keef), if these attackers were to fire back, why didn't they do so when the police arrived? And even if a bystander with a gun fired on them -like the police- how would the two know any different while they were busy killing a poor guy for no reason. How would they know that the bystander shooting them wasn't a police officer?

I agree that this is a time where no one could have taken control of the situation, as people have said to police and media that were there they thought the two were trying to help. By the time the realized what had transpired it was too late for the man anyways and what the lady did by calming them down was probably best just in case they wanted to go and kill more.

 

[Liquid]

I don't think I would care if I got arrested for running terrorists down with a car.

How amazingly civilised of you.

 

[TheCracker]

From the footage i've seen, the road was quickly blocked with congestion, even having the foresight to get in your car and attempt to run them over is highly unlikely.

I'd imagine that very few people saw the murder take place, many or most of them will not have comprehended what was actually taking place. The blocked roads and general movement of pedestrians will account for the crowds, but they'll have been unaware of the situation, their only knowledge would have come from the chinese whispers going around. No one can 'take charge' of a situation they are largely oblivious of.

 

[Carbonox]

How amazingly civilised of you.

My apologies, I'm not exactly one to care about their "human rights".

 

[NFSCARBON1]

My apologies, I'm not exactly one to care about their "human rights".

Hear hear. What they did was barbaric, they shouldn't have any human rights, as a human would not act in that manner.

All this does is further entice hatred between racist or ignorant people and innocent Muslims, which in turn will further aggravate Extremist Muslims.

It seems the likes of the EDL are preaching that all Muslims are scum, leading some of their members to carry out attacks.
It also seems the Extremist Muslims are preaching that British people are scum, leading some of their followers to carry out attacks.
Innocent people are always caught in the crossfire.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Hear hear. What they did was barbaric, they shouldn't have any human rights, as a human would not act in that manner.

All this does is further entice hatred between racist or ignorant people and innocent Muslims, which in turn will further aggravate Extremist Muslims.

It seems the likes of the EDL are preaching that all Muslims are scum, leading some of their members to carry out attacks.
It also seems the Extremist Muslims are preaching that British people are scum, leading some of their followers to carry out attacks.
Innocent people are always caught in the crossfire.

Exactly, sadly I don't think there will be anything to fix much here.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well then answer this (not that I agree with Keef), if these attackers were to fire back, why didn't they do so when the police arrived?

Becase they consider themselves martyrs for the cause. They were willing - and probably expecting - to die during their attack.

And even if a bystander with a gun fired on them -like the police- how would the two know any different while they were busy killing a poor guy for no reason. How would they know that the bystander shooting them wasn't a police officer?

They wouldn't have. But going by the way they paraded around and asked people to film them and take their pictures, the point of the attack was not to attack the soldier, but to attack the soldier and be seen doing it. If somebody started shooting on them before they had a chance to parade around for the cameras, they may have started shooting back.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It seems the likes of the EDL are preaching that all Muslims are scum, leading some of their members to carry out attacks.
It also seems the Extremist Muslims are preaching that British people are scum, leading some of their followers to carry out attacks.

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

It's ridiculous.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I did clearly state "news" and have also clearly stated that people like Bill O'Reilly are not impartial journalists and make no pretense about being one. But since you mentioned O'Reilly and the third interview I'll make some specific comments on that video, even though it it irrelevant.

- he is interviewing two Muslims who advocate that "some" Muslims hate the U.S.A and they attempt to explain their position. ...he didn't write their books and many Muslims do hate America...at no point does he say all Muslims or the majority of Muslims.
- one of the authors is a Muslim woman wearing no head scarf. In many Muslim countries she'd be forced to have her face covered and in some others she would not be allowed to go to school. Hundreds upon hundreds of Muslim women have been killed or maimed for not wearing the hijab and many girls simply for attending school.
- O'Reilly's asks them questions, allows them to make their point, and disagrees with them on their "logic" as to why "some" Muslims hate America
- the female Muslim author who has written other books says, "there is a problem with the way many of us practice Islam"
- O'Reilly says nothing untruthful in the interview and at no points advocates anything like, "Muslims are the cause of all evil in the world" which was the original contention you were supposed to answer. He asks questions and there is a free exchange of ideas.

Sorry, but that doesn't make the grade. I'll assume the video with the View is a joke and slipped in there by accident....lol.