Britain - The Official Thread

[Rage Racer]

BREAKING: Russian ally of Putin critic FOUND DEAD - Associate of Berezovsky dies in UK
NIKOLAI Glushkov, a Russian businessman and close associate of late Putin critic Boris Berezovsky, has been found dead in the UK, according to reports.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...vladimir-putin-critic-Boris-Berezovsky-latest

The Emperor's on the roll...

 

[Dennisch]

The KGB is very busy lately. Perhaps it's time for 007 to investigate.

 

[Rage Racer]

Who's next? Chichvarkin? I guess he's afraid of eating or drinking now...

 

[Liquid]

UKGB

Cue the Russian statements of "Well, Britain sure looks like a safe place to live". Wink, wink.

 

[Dotini]

Oh, the thrill of escalation!

...blunt warning to the Prime Minister, Russia’s foreign ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova added nobody should threaten a nuclear power, according to the nation’s the state-run RIA news agency.

In a series of tweets the Russian embassy in the UK said: “Moscow will not respond to London’s ultimatum until it receives samples of the chemical substance to which the UK investigators are referring.

“Britain must comply with the Chemical Weapons Convention which stipulates joint investigation into the incident, for which Moscow is ready.

“Without that, there can be no sense in any statements from London. The incident appears to be yet another crooked attempt by the UK authorities to discredit Russia.

“Any threat to take ‘punitive’ measures against Russia will meet with a response. The British side should be aware of that.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...-attack-nuclear-power-world-war-3-theresa-may

 

[UKMikey]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...-attack-nuclear-power-world-war-3-theresa-may

Good ol' Daily Express. Is this story seriously suggesting that Russia would respond with nuclear arms if the UK were to impose sanctions upon trade with them? No wait, the Sun, Express and Star are saying that the UK plans to launch cyber attacks on Russia. The reputable end of the British press, then.

Here is an alternative recounting of the situation from BBC News in which cyber attacks and nuclear retaliation appear to be absent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43377856

 

[Dotini]

Good ol' Daily Express. Is this story seriously suggesting that Russia would respond with nuclear arms if the UK were to impose sanctions upon trade with them? No wait, the Sun, Express and Star are saying that the UK plans to launch cyber attacks on Russia. The reputable end of the British press, then.

Here is an alternative recounting of the situation from BBC News in which cyber attacks and nuclear retaliation appear to be absent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43377856

From your link:

What could the UK do?
Britain could expel Russian diplomats, as it did after the poisoning of former Russian Federal Security Service operative Alexander Litvinenko in 2006 with radioactive polonium.

But many argue that this, and the other measures that were taken after that killing - including visa restrictions on Russian officials - did not go far enough. The man identified as the main suspect, Andrei Lugovoi, is not just at large, he is now a Russian MP.

It could also:

• Expel senior diplomats, perhaps even the Russian ambassador, Alexander Yakovenko, and known Russian intelligence agents
• Take some sort of action to bar wealthy Russian oligarchs from accessing their mansions and other luxuries in London, as suggested by Tory MP and House of Commons foreign affairs committee chair Tom Tugendhat. One way this could happen is through the use of Unexplained Wealth Orders, which allow government officials to seize assets including property until they have been properly accounted for
• A boycott of the Fifa World Cup in Russia later this year by officials and dignitaries - a symbolic move that UK allies are unlikely to emulate
• Pass a British version of the 2012 US Magnitsky act, which punishes Russians involved in corruption and human rights violations with asset freezes and travel bans. It is named after a Russian lawyer who died in custody after revealing alleged fraud by state officials. MPs have been pushing for a Magnitsky amendment to be added to the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill now going through Parliament
• Taking Russian broadcasters such as RT (formerly Russia Today) off the air - broadcasting regulator Ofcom has said it will "consider the implications for RT's broadcast licences" after Mrs May speaks on Wednesday. Moscow has threatened to bar all British media from working in Russia if RT is targeted

Personally I like really getting down to business straightaway. Do it all, now. We will stand behind you. About 3500 miles behind.
"Wise men say only fools rush in" -Elvis Presley

 

[UKMikey]

From your link:


Personally I like really getting down to business straightaway. Do it all, now. We will stand behind you. About 3500 miles behind.
"Wise men say only fools rush in" -Elvis Presley

Thanks for beating the drum but until I see some actual concrete measures posted by a reputable source like a broadsheet newspaper I'll hold off painting the windows white, digging a trench at the bottom of the garden or planning a fallout room.

The only one of your possible measures - which are actually mentioned in a speculative supplementary article, not on the page I posted - I've seen actually discussed openly in parliament is Boris Johnson's suggestion we boycott the World Cup which'd hardly make a difference from a diplomatic point of view (or as some would argue a sporting one).

It appears the first casualty of war is indeed the truth.

 

[Rage Racer]

So, Russia wants a sample of the poisonous substance used to poison Skripal. Then, there will be an explanation.
If RF doesn't respond to the ultimatum, what will Britain do? Poison another Russian defector or fled businessman?

UPD. Yup, looks like Chichvarkin might be next.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/world/europe/london-russia-spies.html

Yevgeny Chichvarkin, a mobile-phone tycoon who complained publicly about official corruption, fled Moscow for London in 2009 and was later accused of kidnapping and blackmail. Mr. Chichvarkin, who met for an interview in a fashionably moth-eaten pink cardigan and gaudy pantaloons, now owns Hedonism, a Mayfair wine shop where one bottle of vintage cognac is priced at $340,000.

Mr. Chichvarkin said he had realized that he was under surveillance shortly after moving here, when he observed a group of two or three men standing for hours around 100 yards from his front door. Peering at them more closely, he saw that they were passing the time by peeling and eating sunflower seeds, a habit common among men from the Russian countryside.

I guess they were also wearing track pants and squatting.

 

[Touring Mars]

Britain will expel 23 Russian diplomats and Russians will face additional security checks before being allowed to enter the UK...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hes-it-for-salisbury-spy-attack-politics-live

 

[Liquid]

They must have pretty strong evidence behind closed doors that Russian national(s) carried this out in order to justify punishing Russian citizens entering the UK considering that officially, no-one has yet been arrested for a chemical attack or attempted murder.

 

[Touring Mars]

Theresa May has also suspended all high-level 'bilateral contacts' with Russia and has said that no UK officials will attend the FIFA World Cup in Russia this summer - a move pre-empted by the SFA and the Scottish national football team.

 

[polysmut]

They must have pretty strong evidence behind closed doors that Russian national(s) carried this out in order to justify punishing Russian citizens entering the UK considering that officially, no-one has yet been arrested for a chemical attack or attempted murder.

Jeremy Corbyn had advance viewing of the Prime Minister's statement and responded to it in the house of commons. He asked about the previously mentioned possibility of a state manufactured weapon falling into the hands of a perpetrator other than the Russian government. This suggests that if the UK government has strong evidence that the RF government is responsible, as Mrs May suggested is the case, they haven't shared it with Mr Corbyn along with the PM's statement.

 

[TheCracker]

a move pre-empted by the SFA and the Scottish national football team.

The England team will follow suit by coming home straight after the group stages. 👍

 

[Rage Racer]

So, the investigation isn't completed, and the police doesn't have a single suspect, but May already knows who did it.

Of course, it was Russia. Only Russian agents would use a Soviet-developed nerve gas in the middle of Britain to poison a defected spy who had already told everything he knew to his new bosses 20 years ago. Then was arrested (in 2004), put to prison for 6 years then released, and no one in Russia cared about him since then.

Moreover, a gas that didn't finish him. But hurt 20+ random people around. Just during another diplomatic tension. And right before the presidental elections. And in less than 100 days before the FIFA World Cup.

Totally unbreakable evidence.

 

[polysmut]

So, the investigation isn't completed, and the police doesn't have a single suspect, but May already knows who did it.

Of course, it was Russia. Only Russian agents would use a Soviet-developed nerve gas in the middle of Britain to poison a defected spy who had already told everything he knew to his new bosses 20 years ago. Then was arrested (in 2004), put to prison for 6 years then released, and no one in Russia cared about him since then.

Moreover, a gas that didn't finish him. But hurt 20+ random people around. Just during another diplomatic tension. And right before the presidental elections. And in less than 100 days before the FIFA World Cup.

Totally unbreakable evidence.

If Russia did do it, perhaps the motivation was different to a straightforward killing. The method used seems like a message, because it is so indiscreet.

 

[Dotini]

There is no reason to prove Russia did it. Of course they did. Russia can't prove that it didn't do it, so makes a perfectly fair and logical scapegoat to pin a spectacularly stupid crime on that so handily deflects attention from Brexit, the weather and sundry woes. In your heart, you know Russia is your enemy anyway, so not to randomly undermine, provoke and attack them at any and every good opportunity would be a waste of office. When we topple their evil regime, we will parcel out the good leftover bits and resources to you, our friends and allies. What would you like, the water, oil, gold, forests, rare earth minerals or some of each? It's time to make the Empire great again!

 

[UKMikey]

The current hysteria puts me in mind of this punk poem I heard in the early 1980s.

THEY MUST BE RUSSIANS

They slither round corners with scarves round their faces
They always turn up in improbable places
They lack the good taste of the British, our graces
They’re horrid – they must be the Russians!

They’re always involved in some dastardly plot
They’re never content with whatever they’ve got
And they are the cause of the Great British Rot!
They’re horrid – they must be the Russians!

They sit in the Hilton and scowl at the waiters
They drink a foul potion distilled from potatoes
And everyone knows they detest us and hate us
They’re horrid – they must be the Russians!

They’ve Benn and the Trots who all want to enslave us
And countless Red spies who all want to deprave us
But Maggie’s alright – she’ll defend us and save us
From the muggers from Moscow, the Russians!

And her mate in the White House, a fine, manly figure
He knows how to handle a Jew or a ******
When Maggie gets Trident and Ron gets the trigger
We’ll give ‘em deterrent, those Russians….

Oh, hang on a minute – my brain’s on the blink
I think that the Kremlin’s been spiking my drink
How unpatriotic – I’ve started to THINK!
It must all be down to the Russians…

My mate here just tells me they’ve got a new plan
They’re holding a party in Afghanistan
And he’s got an invite, as number one fan:
They can’t all be horrid, the Russians!

Hey, look – over there – they’re down in the park
They’re holding a meeting out there in the dark
The speaker looks just like that John Cooper Clarke –
They all dress so formal, the Russians…

I’m going to meet them: I want to be friends
Find out if they follow the West’s latest trends
And have long discussions, the means and the ends –
I’m getting quite fond of the Russians….

Hey, hang on – they’re smiling and there’s music playing!
It’s punk rock – the Malchix – oh, I feel like staying!
They’re handing out ice cream, and bopping, and swaying –
I THINK I’LL GO BACK WITH THE RUSSIANS!

 

[Famine]

Other completely coincidental and wholly explained deaths in the UK with which Russia has had zero involvement:

September 2003 - Stephen Moss; Lawyer with links to two Putin critics (Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky) and Cipriani Dining Club member. Died of sudden heart attack, aged 46, at home in London.
March 2004 - Stephen Curtis; Lawyer with links to two Putin critics (Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky) and Cipriani Dining Club member. Died in helicopter crash in clear conditions on approach to Bournemouth airport.
October 2006 - Igor Ponomarev; Diplomat. Dies in London of a heart attack, with surprisingly similar symptoms to thallium poisoning, aged 41.
November 2006 - Alexander Litvinenko; Critic of Putin. Dies in London following poisoning with Polonium-210. Ponomarev and Litvinenko had both just met Mario Scaramella, an Italian security consultant investigating links between Italian politics and FSB activities.
January 2007 - Yuri Golubev; Business partner of Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Died of a sudden heart attack, aged 64, at home in London.
February 2007 - Daniel McGrory; Journalist investigating Litvinenko death. Died of sudden heart issues, aged 54, at home in London
February 2008 - Badri Patarkatsishvili; Business partner and friend of Berezovsky. Died of sudden heart attack, aged 52, at home in Surrey.
August 2010 - Gareth Williams; MI6 agent linked to Russian mafia. Died accidentally in "a sex game gone wrong", found in an MI6 safe house inside a zipped up North Face sports bag, inside a bathtub.
November 2010 - Paul Castle; Property dealer linked to Berezovsky and Cipriani Dining Club member. Commits suicide by jumping in front of a tube train.
November 2012 - Alexander Perepilichnyy; Russian tycoon linked to alleged Litvinenko hitman. Dies of sudden heart attack while jogging near home in Surrey. Ruled not suspicious, despite stomach contents including "heartbreak grass" - Gelsemium elegans - a deadly alkaloid plant that can cause heart attacks.
December 2012 - Robbie Curtis; Property dealer linked to Berezovsky and Cipriani Dining Club member. Commits suicide by jumping in front of a tube train. Yes, I've copied this directly from the Paul Castle text above.
March 2013 - Boris Berezovsky; Wealthy critic of Putin and Cipriani Dining Club member. Committed suicide by hanging at his home in Berkshire.
November 2014 - Johnny Elichaoff; Property developer and Cipriani Dining Club member. Committed suicide by "rolling" off a shopping centre roof in Bayswater, London.
December 2014 - Scot Young; Property developer and Cipriani Dining Club member. Committed suicide by jumping from the fourth floor window of a London flat and impaled on railings below.
May 2016 - Matthew Puncher; Nuclear radiation dosimetry expert and Litvinenko case investigator. Committed suicide by stabbing himself five times with two different kitchen knives in his own house in Oxfordshire.

 

[Dennisch]

Quack quack, but in Russian.

 

[mustafur]

So, the investigation isn't completed, and the police doesn't have a single suspect, but May already knows who did it.

Of course, it was Russia. Only Russian agents would use a Soviet-developed nerve gas in the middle of Britain to poison a defected spy who had already told everything he knew to his new bosses 20 years ago. Then was arrested (in 2004), put to prison for 6 years then released, and no one in Russia cared about him since then.

Moreover, a gas that didn't finish him. But hurt 20+ random people around. Just during another diplomatic tension. And right before the presidental elections. And in less than 100 days before the FIFA World Cup.

Totally unbreakable evidence.

When they asked Russia if anyone could of had access to their military grade poison, they refused to answer.

If the Shoe fits...

 

[ExigeEvan]

Why are we accusing Russia when it's clear that having dinner with Danny Cipriani is a fatal experience.

Pray for Kelly Brook.

 

[polysmut]

When they asked Russia if anyone could of had access to their military grade poison, they refused to answer.

If the Shoe fits...

I thought they asked for a sample so they could collaborate with the UK and/or the international community in the investigation?

 

[Rage Racer]

Apparently, Great Britain has bad climate for Russian people. It causes heart attacks and thoughts of suicide...
How else can I explain the fact that there are plently of RF government critics living in USA and Israel and doing well, but only UK has bad environment for them?..

If Russia did do it, perhaps the motivation was different to a straightforward killing. The method used seems like a message, because it is so indiscreet.

Maybe. But why now? Does Kremlin need a scandal like this at this time?

When they asked Russia if anyone could of had access to their military grade poison, they asked to provide a sample of the poison.

FTFY.

Considering that the Novichok-5 they're talking about is 5 times more toxic than VX that was used to kill Kim Jong Nam (who died very quickly after having a rag on his face) in Malaysia, it is weird that Skripal and his daughter were walking for an hour after being poisoned and didn't even die. Unless they recieved a super-low dose. Anyway, Russia should verify the structure of the compound they indentified as A-232. Not necessarily by sample (if there's not enough of the poison left), but at least spectrum data (IR, NMR, mass, etc.) would be fine. Then, Russia may be able to say something about the origin of the substance.

But even if the poison was A-232 "Novichok-5" as they say, this is only a start of the investigation.
(I'll tell later why, I'm leaving now.)

 

[Touring Mars]

Apparently, Great Britain has bad climate for Russian people. It causes heart attacks and thoughts of suicide...

How else can I explain the fact that there are plently of RF government critics living in USA and Israel and doing well, but only UK has bad environment for them?..

That's maybe because the Russians know that they are getting away with it in the UK - frankly, it's about time this stopped, but the UK's response to previous incidents has not been robust enough.

-

A generous analysis might be that whoever perpetrated this attack has gone to some considerable effort to implicate Russia. While it remains a possibility that Russia itself - or more specifically, the Putin regime - did not order/finance/sanction this attack, their reaction in recent days has been one of insolence and sarcasm, which is doing nothing to allay suspicions that the Kremlin is behind this (and other) incidents (see @Famine's post above).

The Russian claim that the UK has attacked itself in order to disrupt the World Cup is idiotic. If (and it's a big if) Russia is not directly responsible for this attack, it is more likely that the motive is to drive a wedge between the UK and Russia for whatever reason, since that is the outcome - attempting to shift the blame onto the UK is not only completely groundless, but it doesn't even chime with simple common sense - the UK has nothing to gain (and potentially a lot to lose) by a souring of relations with Russia.

However, I am still struggling to accept the Russian assertion that they had no motive - punishment/retribution for past actions is a pretty obvious motive if you ask me, but whether Skripal himself was still relevant to Russia is a moot point. Arguably, the message it sends out to others is an even clearer motive - and that is something that even Putin himself has said publicly... there is little doubt where Putin stands when it comes to dealing with people he considers as traitors. If someone still had an axe to grind with Skripal himself, there is any number of things that could have 'happened' to him (again, see above), yet that isn't what happened - the choice of weapon combined with the intended target sends a pretty clear message, and, regrettably, so does the fact that the attackers can get away with it.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Apparently, Great Britain has bad climate for Russian people. It causes heart attacks and thoughts of suicide...
How else can I explain the fact that there are plently of RF government critics living in USA and Israel and doing well, but only UK has bad environment for them?..

The lengths you'll go to to defend Russia as if they can do no wrong is hilarious. Suggesting that the UK government has attacked it's own people with a nerve agent and has been killing off ex-Russian spies that they've allowed to stay in the country for years with no motivation and no evidence? I think you might want to take your tin foil hat off.

 

[Famine]

Apparently, Great Britain has bad climate for Russian people. It causes heart attacks and thoughts of suicide...

Not just Russian people. British people closely linked to those Russian people (and very specifically Boris Berezovsky and Mikhail Khodorkovsky) through financing property in the UK are also affected by this spate of unexpected heart attacks and the desire to step in front of underground trains.

And helicopter crashes. There's a lot of that going round too.

But as I said, all of those deaths have been completely explained and found not to be suspicious in any way, except for the Litvinenko poisoning which resulted in a request for extradition of an alleged FSB hitman, who's now an MP... The guy who stabbed himself to death with five wounds from two kitchen knives was ruled as suicide. The guy who died of a heart attack while jogging with heart attack-causing plant matter in his stomach was ruled as natural causes. The secret agent who died inside a padlocked sports bag, in a bathtub, in an MI6 safehouse, was ruled as death by misadventure in a gay sex game gone wrong.

They're all completely explained, not suspicious and not connected to the Kremlin at all.


But that said, it's not just living in the UK (or, specifically, the South East) that seems to afflict these Russian and Russia-linked folk:

November 2016 - Sergei Krivov; Security officer at Russian consulate in New York. Dies within the consulate. Consulate officials originally claimed he fell from the roof, then that he'd died of a heart attack, police report filed say he had head trauma. Coroner ruled haemorrhage due to chest tumour.
December 2016 - Oleg Erovinkin; Russian intelligence agent, alleged source in Trump dossier. Dies of causes unknown (rumoured to be, but not officially confirmed as, a heart attack) in his car in Moscow, aged 61.
December 2016 - Andrey Karlov; Russian ambassador to Turkey. Shot dead by gunman at art exhibition in Ankara, gunman shouted "do not forget Syria".
January 2017 - Andrey Malanin; Russian diplomat to ambassador to Greece. Dies of "natural causes" in his home in Athens, aged 54.
January 2017 - Alexander Kadakin; Russian ambassador to India. Dies in hospital in Delhi, following sudden heart attack, aged 67.
February 2017 - Vitaly Churkin; Russian ambassador to the UN. Dies of sudden heart attack in his office in New York, aged 64
March 2017 - Denis Voronenkov; Putin critic. Shot dead outside a hotel in Kiev.
March 2017 - Nikolai Gorokhov; Russian lawyer representing Sergei Magnitsky in a tax fraud case. Fell from fourth floor window of Moscow apartment, but survives despite head injuries. Magnitsky himself was beaten to death in jail in November 2008.
August 2017 - Migayas Shirinskiy; Russian ambassador to Sudan. Dies of sudden heart attack while swimming in his residence in Sudan, aged 62.


Again, all of these are totally explained and absolutely not suspicious or connected to the Kremlin.

 

[TheCracker]

but it doesn't even chime with simple common sense - the UK has nothing to gain (and potentially a lot to lose) by a souring of relations with Russia.

👍 With Britain coming out of trade agreements with the EU due to Brexit. The possibility of cooling (trade) relationships with the US, the UK needs to be building bridges with potential trade partners, not isolating them. It makes zero sense to point the finger at Russia if the evidence isn't already compelling enough.

 

[Liquid]

However, I am still struggling to accept the Russian assertion that they had no motive - punishment/retribution for past actions is a pretty obvious motive if you ask me

An English friend of mine worked for Russia Today in Moscow for 10 years and still writes for them here in Bratislava part-time. He was saying to me the other day that one thing Vladimir Putin holds above all else is loyalty, adding that it has been detrimental to him in the past when in Russian domestic politics he has stood by people he really shouldn't have but did so because they had been loyal to him.

He detests betrayal and disloyalty and does not forget.

 

[Dotini]

So far the sanctions or actions levied by the UK against Russia seem trivial, painless, and without any real bite. It will be interesting to what the retaliatory sanctions are that the Kremlin is threatening. Probably they will also be low level, and painless. So maybe this whole thing is a pantomime, a farce, a mummer's show? Is, or is not, Russia your real enemy? What is the base truth of Russia's relationship with the western democracies? Maybe, just maybe, Russia is working more closely with you than is realized. I think that is perhaps true when it comes Russia/USA relations. Lots of bark, but no bite. Meanwhile, under the surface, there is cooperation on the meaningful stuff.