Burqa

[Vince_Fiero]

I believe it was relevant here: ultra-conservative Egyptian presidential said he would force women to wear the hijab (veil)

by the way: saw a Luxembourgish man who exaggerated his protection against the cold and looked like he was wearing a Nicab, still no issue for me.

 

[XoravaX]

by the way: saw a Luxembourgish man who exaggerated his protection against the cold and looked like he was wearing a Nicab, still no issue for me.

Yeah, cold protection is a problem if face-covering clothing is banned, especially in Finland - from Monday to Friday last week the temperature was below -15C all the time in the south, worst -28C, and down to as bad as -40C in north-eastern parts.

Also, in Finland (and possibly other countries with mandatory conscription) we somewhat have a problem (face-covering clothing ban -wise) with reservists, and the fact that they aren't employed by the Army. Would you be scared to see equipped (though usually unarmed, firearms aren't allowed in public in general) reservist going to/returning from a refresher exercise?

They would have problems if the police would start being bureaucratic and demand proof they are going or have been in an exercise. Military passport (army ID card with service place, rank and such) would be required and if left somewhere it could get you arrested if the new ban would've been applied. Especially when some people have bought their own gear they don't have to return to the wares (eg I have a kevlar helmet, flakproof goggles, a balaclava and a snow camo suit of my own - that isn't me in the pic, just someone in a winter exercise (tho it's a "propaganda shot" evidenced by that he's got a bulletproof vest with plates that aren't issued to common soldiers)).

I have to admit a ban doesn't come without problems, though I'm sure they could be solved. But I also have to admit that more important than the ban would be to get the immigrants as a part of our society, whether they still dress up like they used to or not.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Saw someone with the Nicab today (first in Luxembourg):

Since the person was in couple and was communicating normally, leading her partner, there was absolutely nothing shocking to it for me.

But the feeling was completely different when I once entered an aircraft with a bunch of older women with this dress, with big working hands. The issue was mine though, not theirs.

To be honest, even I'll be amazed if I saw a muslim woman wearing a burqa in tiny nation like Luxembourg.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

To be honest, even I'll be amazed if I saw a muslim woman wearing a burqa in tiny nation like Luxembourg.

We live from the finance industry: Luxembourg has become a domicile of choice for Islamic finance in Europe

So Luxembourg can expect some changes in that. I did study together with a woman that followed her man to Luxembourg for this business, however she does look very normal, till someone serves her pig, ...
N.B. that was a misunderstanding, where she mainly expected lettuce in a salad, Luxembourgers have a tendency to put ham and bacon in it as well and quite some.

 

[STI9]

There was a woman in the UK who applied for a teaching job in a primary school. I remember reading this in the newspaper some time ago. She passed the interview and got the job. The following monday (her first day on the job) she appeared with a burqua. Now how can you teach primary children how to speak correctly and sound out words when they cannot see your mouth, or understand a muffled voice.

I think they are completely ridiculous and a threat to security. Surely that alone is a good enough excuse for them to be outlawed.

Its just not acceptable in modern society to go around with your face covered.

 

[DK]

How can a piece of cloth about a couple of millimetres thick muffle your voice?

 

[Omnis]

How can a piece of cloth about a couple of millimetres thick muffle your voice?

Only by inspiring the wearer to speak like Christian Bale in The Dark Knight.

 

[sumbrownkid]

There was a woman in the UK who applied for a teaching job in a primary school. I remember reading this in the newspaper some time ago. She passed the interview and got the job. The following monday (her first day on the job) she appeared with a burqua. Now how can you teach primary children how to speak correctly and sound out words when they cannot see your mouth, or understand a muffled voice.

I think they are completely ridiculous and a threat to security. Surely that alone is a good enough excuse for them to be outlawed.

Its just not acceptable in modern society to go around with your face covered.

You're confusing western society with modern society. Dubai is modern yet has burqa clad women.

 

[STI9]

How can a piece of cloth about a couple of millimetres thick muffle your voice?

Quite easy, try it

 

[DK]

Quite easy, try it

I've tried it, and it didn't seem like my voice was muffled at all.

 

[STI9]

I've tried it, and it didn't seem like my voice was muffled at all.

Dont be wide, my point is still valid.

 

[FoolKiller]

I think they are completely ridiculous and a threat to security. Surely that alone is a good enough excuse for them to be outlawed.

I was wearing a scarf this morning because it was precipitating ice and snow, around freezing temperatures, and the wind was blowing. I purposely had it up over my mouth and nose so I could avoid breathing cold air because I only recently recovered from a sinus infection and the last thing I want to do is irritate my breathing passages again. I work in a government building which frequently gets bomb threats, requires that I swipe a photo bearing security ID to enter, and I can be fired for holding the door open for a fellow employee if they don't have their security ID on them, even if I recognize them. I did not take my scarf and gloves off until I got in the elevator.

Did anyone in security try to stop me from entering because the only part of me visible was my eyes? No. Want to know why? Because the strip of fabric wrapped around my head could hardly conceal anything, unless I had a grenade or something similar stuffed in my mouth. It is also possible that my perfectly legitimate, and completely uncontroversial, trench coat (about the size of say traditional Muslim robes - pardon my lack of knowledge of their official names) could be hiding something very dangerous, as has actually happened in reality, but we aren't the kind of tyrannical society that treats people like terrorists for wearing perfectly legitimate clothing.

Well, not outside of airports, at least.


So the question is, do you also find a trench coat, scarf, gloves, and maybe even a hat to be a security threat? Should we ban the wearing of outer layer clothing designed to go with professional attire if it covers your face? Just to add to this, my wife calls my gloves Dexter gloves.

 

[Zenith]

^That.

It's inane to outlaw anything that is "ridiculous" and/or "a security threat." There's simply nothing on this earth that isn't.

Loaf of bread *BAM* bomb concealment.

I can use a motorcycle helmet to conceal my identity even more effectively than a Burqa. Robbers frequently use them. Should we outlaw full face helmets as well?

 

[Vince_Fiero]

... completely ridiculous and a threat to security. Surely that alone is a good enough excuse for them to be outlawed. ...

No it is not a good enough excuse.
You want to get a law against being ridiculous, that law is ridiculous, so it invalidates itself.

threat to security: it is only a "feeling of in-security", your feeling = your problem; not theirs.
Someone that goes and starts a bond fire in a crowded shopping mall seems like a thread to security, he should stop the fire immediately and pay to repair his intervention, but what damage did the person with a Burqa do?
It is just their right to wear a Burqa against your right to dislike anything someone else does, why do you need a law to submit others to your vision?

Did anyone in security try to stop me from entering because the only part of me visible was my eyes?

They should have to see if you did not use a stolen card, but that is part of my job speaking.

but we aren't the kind of tyrannical society that treats people like terrorists for wearing perfectly legitimate clothing.

We presume innocence, in airports all go through the same checks.

Should we ban the wearing of outer layer clothing designed to go with professional attire if it covers your face?

The French law forbids face covering clothing, they admit you can not apply this in practice, but ????

 

[Pierced Lead]

Dont be wide, my point is still valid.

No it isn't. My sister and mother wear the veil and their voices never seem to be muffled and even in the noisy busy local markets they have no problem communicating with other people.

 

[STI9]

Well when the minority group start getting decisions in their favour, there is something wrong.
When you travel to another country you are supposed to respect their laws and rules. If I went abroad I would gladly follow their laws as I am a guest. Now when people come to visit a country and all they do is complain about human rights and lack of expression, I say **** off back home. You dont like our laws or our way of running things then leave.

 

[sumbrownkid]

You're bellyaching about the few freak chances of idiots using the burqa for illegitimate purposes that may harm people. Over the thousands that do happen to wear it and love to enjoy the rights bestowed to them, but all they want is just a little more respect to their identity as a people and not as a thing?

If Western society claims to be democratic and progressive, then why the hell is the government determining what people should wear?

 

[STI9]

If Western society claims to be democratic and progressive, then why the hell is the government determining what people should wear?

Its not determining what you should wear, simply what not to. These people can wear one if they like but they should know they will probably be dicriminated for it. (not by me, that is not a threat). I have a friend who is coloured from the middle east and we travelled to Portugal with a lot of other friends in a large group. We were all white apart from him yet he was the one "randomly selected for screening".
Im not saying everyone who wears a burqua is a terrorist bomber, just that there is always a chance a bomber is wearing one. I do accept though that it may be a very small number who do this.

 

[Zenith]

Well when the minority group start getting decisions in their favour, there is something wrong.

This could not be more wrong. Just because a majority of people say something does not make it correct. This is a well known fact.

When you travel to another country you are supposed to respect their laws and rules. If I went abroad I would gladly follow their laws as I am a guest. Now when people come to visit a country and all they do is complain about human rights and lack of expression, I say **** off back home. You dont like our laws or our way of running things then leave.

And in this country our very first right is our freedom of expression. This includes religious practices. The only exception to this rule is when it infringes the rights of others, which a burqa does not.

People are not complaining about human rights or freedom of expression. They have that and they know it. They complain about the opposite, the people who seek to diminish the rights of people they don't agree with or fear.


You have no right to restrict another persons religious practices because you believe it is "ridiculous." So, by your words...

if you don't like our laws or our way of running things then leave

 

[STI9]

Its a basic principal that the majority rules. Thats the whole point of voting.
And as I believe, women do not NEED to wear the burqua. The religion does not force them to do so - it is a choice.

 

[Zenith]

Its a basic principal that the majority rules. Thats the whole point of voting.

Majority "rules" does not mean majority is correct. You walk into a room where everyone else says 2+2=5. That doesn't mean they're correct.

If a majority of people here want you banned from the site because they think you're "ridiculous" (even though you haven't violated the AUP) should you be banned?

We have a Constitution for this exact reason. The majority should not, and does not always rule. People are fearful and selfish. They will happily vote to restrict anything they don't like or find "ridiculous" That's why we have a Judicial Branch. That is why we have the concept of inalienable rights.

Furthermore, the majority does not agree with you. The majority understands the purpose of the Judicial Branch and it's doubtful that the majority wants to ban Burqas.

Would you prefer to live in a direct democracy?

 

[STI9]

If the majority of people on GTP want to ban me then I'm ok with that, as long as its a majority decision.
Anyway, Im sure the view in the US is different to the UK one.

A poll in 2011 taken in the UK indicated that 66% of the population would ban burqas in public.
http://labs.yougov.co.uk/news/2011/04/14/two-thirds-brits-want-burqa-ban/

 

[Zenith]

If the majority of people on GTP want to ban me then I'm ok with that, as long as its a majority decision.
Anyway, Im sure the view in the US is different to the UK one.

A poll in 2011 taken in the UK indicated that 66% of the population would ban burqas in public.
http://labs.yougov.co.uk/news/2011/04/14/two-thirds-brits-want-burqa-ban/

It doesn't matter.

The majority of British people do not wear Burqas in the same way the majority of people are not interested in cars, own guns, practice ballet, or what have you. Once again, to allow people to make decisions about things that do not affect them is the downside of democracy and why democracy has always been limited. That is why any legislation to ban Burqas will be (and has been?) shut down by the Supreme Court.

What if there was a vote to execute you for no reason? Would you just allow it? Of course not. It infringes your right to life. Direct democracy is medieval and outdated.

 

[Liquid]

A poll in 2011 taken in the UK indicated that 66% of the population would ban burqas in public

66% of the British population don't give two figs about politics and are just as clueless.

 

[STI9]

66% of the British population don't give two figs about politics and are just as clueless.

And you can prove this ?

It doesn't matter.

The majority of British people do not wear Burqas in the same way the majority of people are not interested in cars, own guns, practice ballet, or what have you. Once again, to allow people to make decisions about things that do not affect them is the downside of democracy and why democracy has always been limited.

So are you saying the population of a country isnt allowed to decide what type of things come in from other countries. Burqas are not remotely british so you think if the british people dont want them then tough, they have to deal with it ?

 

[Zenith]

So are you saying the population of a country isnt allowed to decide what type of things come in from other countries. Burqas are not remotely british so you think if the british people dont want them then tough, they have to deal with it ?

Precisely. There's a reason why countries obsessed with being as isolationist and culturally conservative as you describe do not exist. They fail.

Let's go back to the execution problem.

If you were executed tomorrow, it wouldn't affect anyone but you, your family, and your friends. What if a measure was voted on and turned up with a 66% majority that STI9 should be executed by firing squad? After all, it won't affect most British people and majority rules.

Is this right? Shouldn't the population of a country be allowed to decide what they want to do with their country? So what if you want to live. That's not what the majority says.

People aren't allowed to make decisions like this because the consequences do not affect them.

 

[Liquid]

And you can prove this ?

I don't know anybody who gets involved in discussion on a regular basis. All people in our country do is complain about how bad the Government is. Except when it's election time, then they complain about how bad the Government is and vote.

This could be down to my social status and the people I know, but generally most people are disinterested in politics.

So are you saying the population of a country isnt allowed to decide what type of things come in from other countries. Burqas are not remotely british so you think if the british people dont want them then tough, they have to deal with it ?

Did we have a vote to decide that Ford could trade in the country? Or if the German invention of the car was even permitted in the first place? Or if Alstom were allowed to build some of our trains?

Christianity isn't a British invention but people wear their crosses if they want. Jews wear their kippas and stars of David, if they want. It's their choice. We shouldn't impose sanctions on what people can and can't wear. It's an infringement of civil liberties.

 

[STI9]

This could be down to my social status and the people I know, but generally most people are disinterested in politics.

Ok then I'll give you that one because almost all the people I know are interested in politics. Or because your in Wales (not an insult)

The difference is that wearing a necklace or a hat isnt anything unusual. But to walk around all the time covering your face is just...well I dont really know how to describe it. As stated before maybe if its cold then ok. But do you see anyone going around with a covered face in normal weather conditions, for non-religious reasons ? No.
Also, all of the terrorist activity has hardened peoples views. I dont know about the US, but definately over here.
Doesnt matter what you say, US and UK are different. In terms of law - and European law is different again. A definate "yes" or "no" will probably never be reached for this question, people will probably just stop caring or turn Vigilante. But probably just stop caring.

 

[Liquid]

Ok then I'll give you that one because almost all the people I know are interested in politics. Or because your in Wales (not an insult)

It is an insult, but an accurate one.

The difference is that wearing a necklace or a hat isnt anything unusual. But to walk around all the time covering your face is just...well I dont really know how to describe it.

Then don't wear one if you don't want to.

As stated before maybe if its cold then ok. But do you see anyone going around with a covered face in normal weather conditions, for non-religious reasons ? No.

Because it's their choice to wear things in whatever weather or not. Also, define normal.

Also, all of the terrorist activity has hardened peoples views. I dont know about the US, but definately over here.

Do you trust people with ski masks or motorike helmets?

Doesnt matter what you say, US and UK are different. In terms of law - and European law is different again. A definate "yes" or "no" will probably never be reached for this question, people will probably just stop caring or turn Vigilante. But probably just stop caring.

Wrong. Some wonderful 'democracies' like France have already outright banned it. But that's the French being the French.

We're a liberal, tolerant and acceptable society. Or at least I thought we were. I don't think I was consulted when we suddenly decided that we had the right to tell people what to wear and where they are allowed to.

 

[STI9]

Do you wear a Burqa mazda ?