Bush Admits to Authorizing Wiretaps

  • Thread starter Danoff
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ledhed
They took a bunch of raw data and went looking for PATTERNS to indicate who was calling to ...say PAKISTAN to and from or AFGHANISTAN ...etc...this has been going on since the 1980 's....so why the sudden uproar ?

They've been asking phone companies to break the law and circumventing the courts because they were afriad that they "wouldn't get authorization" since the 80's? Is that why Qwest and Bellsouth refused to comply with the request to break the law? Because it's common?
 
danoff
They've been asking phone companies to break the law and circumventing the courts because they were afriad that they "wouldn't get authorization" since the 80's? Is that why Qwest and Bellsouth refused to comply with the request to break the law? Because it's common?


I see that its a classified intel gathering program that no one wants to discuss PUBLICLY...I also see a lot of misinformation and outright bull crap along with speculation that passes as news .

The intelligence commitee is being briefed on the program ..house and senate..

The program Started in the late 80's and was expanded by the Clinton administration.

It tracks CALL PATTERNS using RAW data ...they are looking to match numbers with inteligence gathered in the field during operations in Afghanistan and Iraq ..they are LOOKING for people of interest who are CONTACTING these numbers from THE US . We are AT war.

Should they make it any easier for us to be killed ?

Its not like they are listening to you talk...

think " able danger " and google it..look at the results they got .

They GOT them from monitoring calls origionating in the US and going over seas to suspected NUMBERS gathered through human INT. ops . They also monitored calls comming in .

now they are looking for Sleeper cells..they put millions of numbers into a series of computers and search for patterns of calls to suspected numbers overseas ..they are looking for spikes in activity and other indications something is either in the works or being put into motion..its called a SMART way to defend yourself .

I will be suprised if anything at all but ZIPPED lips come out of the commitees and they just shut up and lets those we expect to protect us actually do their job .
 
ledhed
I will be suprised if anything at all but ZIPPED lips come out of the commitees and they just shut up and lets those we expect to protect us actually do their job .

Part of their job description is not breaking the law . And the law says that telephone companies aren't supposed to be giving this information out, and government officials aren't supposed to be threatening them with a lack of government contracts if they don't agree to break the law.

The program Started in the late 80's and was expanded by the Clinton administration.

The call logs were started after september 11th 2001, and that's why the phone companies were reluctant to oblige.

I see that its a classified intel gathering program that no one wants to discuss PUBLICLY

"Classified" doesn't mean "above the law". We have laws for a reason, we have courts for a reason - and that reason is so that our government officials can't violate our rights without going to jail. What is left of America if government officials can break any law they want and nobody can go after them as long as its "classified"? What good have you done in protecting Americans if you've destroyed the fundamental concept of the country to begin with.

One of the few things left that makes America great is the concept of rights. That we have certain rights that our government officials cannot violate or take away. That's exactly what's happening here, and our representatives didn't even get to weigh in on it.

Maybe this wiretapping business is important and useful. But that doesn't mean that our government officials should simply go out and do it - law be damned. We have a process for this, our judicial system gets to weigh in on it. Our representatives get to draft new bills that ensure Americans retain rights will allowing the NSA to do their job. That's what we pay them for. Not to violate our rights, to protect them, from both terrorists and themselves.
 
This is really a stupid argument... Bush did somthing illegal, and against the the constitution. He needs to start playing president, and stop invading peoples privacy. I do realise there is a terrorists threat, but think how it all begain? It's somthing that can be dealt in a better way. I for one think he has pushed the limits, does he think he can do anything he wants? It certainly looks like he think he can.

If i every found out that the Govn't or who ever is doing it. I would feel invaded... I know that are doing suspicious people, but who knows they could be doing alot more then you think.

There really isn't much to be say about this, other then that he needs to stop.
 
danoff
Part of their job description is not breaking the law . And the law says that telephone companies aren't supposed to be giving this information out, and government officials aren't supposed to be threatening them with a lack of government contracts if they don't agree to break the law.



The call logs were started after september 11th 2001, and that's why the phone companies were reluctant to oblige.



"Classified" doesn't mean "above the law". We have laws for a reason, we have courts for a reason - and that reason is so that our government officials can't violate our rights without going to jail. What is left of America if government officials can break any law they want and nobody can go after them as long as its "classified"? What good have you done in protecting Americans if you've destroyed the fundamental concept of the country to begin with.

One of the few things left that makes America great is the concept of rights. That we have certain rights that our government officials cannot violate or take away. That's exactly what's happening here, and our representatives didn't even get to weigh in on it.

Maybe this wiretapping business is important and useful. But that doesn't mean that our government officials should simply go out and do it - law be damned. We have a process for this, our judicial system gets to weigh in on it. Our representatives get to draft new bills that ensure Americans retain rights will allowing the NSA to do their job. That's what we pay them for. Not to violate our rights, to protect them, from both terrorists and themselves.


dan...you know me ..at least by my post..anyway..I do not trust the government to pick thier own nose... Right ?:)


its just that on this subject I see a bunch of smoke and no FIRE .

I'm sitting back waiting for the politics and bullcrap to play out.

in the mean time lets see some substance .

You KNOW I'm paying attention . I'll be the first to start throwing grenades if they screw with my privacy ...anymore than I already KNOW they do...and will be among the first to roast them for doing unconstitutional crap .

I'm still waiting to see beyond the smoke and mirrors and beyond what I already KNOW exist.

I honestly do not see them going beyond tracking calls looking for patterns ...just simple common sense things you do to look out for the next mad bomber..I PERSONALY do not see THAT as an invasion of privacy..IF I think they are actually listening to calls without a reasonable cause and without judicial review and not reguarding national security..its time to break out the rifle and head for the mountains...my Government just declared war on me .:)
 
Bush administration clearly has lost all control of the intelligence community -- extended to include congressional oversight processes. That is not a trivial point.

nice find there dannoff a very interesting read ..one that also brings up very well founded points .

Its a shame the main stream media suck so bad...And all the good stuff is hidden ....or considered by others to be from the so called " fringe ' groups and thus not worthy of considration .


at any rate ....I have neen pointing out stuff like this for years...

In 1970, Congress passed legislation called the Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act that was designed explicitly to break organized crime groups. The special legislation was needed because organized crime groups were skilled at making more conventional prosecutions difficult. The Clinton administration used the RICO Act against anti-abortion activists. From a legal point of view, this was effective, but no one had ever envisioned the law being used this way when it was drafted. The government was taking the law to a place where its framers had never intended it to go.

Following 9/11, Congress passed a range of anti-terrorism laws that included the PATRIOT Act. The purpose of this was to stop al Qaeda, an organization that had killed thousands of people and was thought to be capable of plotting a nuclear attack. Under the same laws, the Bush administration has been monitoring a range of American left-wing groups -- some of which well might have committed acts of violence, but none of which come close to posing the same level of threat as al Qaeda. In some technical sense, using anti-terrorism laws against animal-rights activists might be legitimate, but the framers of the law did not envision this extension.

What we are describing here is neither a Democratic nor a Republican disease. It is a problem of governments. They are not particularly trustworthy in the way they use laws or programs. More precisely, an extraordinary act is passed to give the government the powers to fight an extraordinary enemy -- in these examples, the Mafia or al Qaeda. But governments will tend to extend this authority and apply it to ordinary events. How long, then, before the justification for tracking telephone calls is extended to finding child molesters, deadbeat dads and stolen car rings

And were do I find it ?

In a Libertarian publication ?.... Ummm.... shouldnt ALL Americans be some form of " Libertarian " ?

Way too much stuff in their to parse through at work..so I'll have to get back to it..its NOT all right..but there's some really good things being pointed out and its worth a good looking into .
 
I'm actually printing out the article and making copies as we speak .

For a long time I thought I was alone in my thinking about this stuff .

needless to say that paper will be subsribed to...and on the favorites bar ..

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance .
 
Senate committee passes bill to authorize unwarranted wiretapping

This seems to be getting worse. Does this really have a chance to be passed by the Senate?


Who exactly is saying its UNWARANTED ?????? To who the terrorist ??

the system was working fine until the bleeding hearts came out and srewed it up crying like babies...lots of caught terrorist and plenty of leads on plots...but the idiot crying , whiners had to screw it up....

we are at WAR people , this is not some class debate or a game you get to reset when you die...you screw up real people die because of it.
 
Who exactly is saying its UNWARANTED ?????? To who the terrorist ??

the system was working fine until the bleeding hearts came out and srewed it up crying like babies...lots of caught terrorist and plenty of leads on plots...but the idiot crying , whiners had to screw it up....

we are at WAR people , this is not some class debate or a game you get to reset when you die...you screw up real people die because of it.

I don't think we've ever agreed so much on anything before ledhed. Very well said 👍
 
Who exactly is saying its UNWARANTED ??????
By unwarranted they mean that it is a wiretap being done without a warrant. Yes, in order to track the terrorists performing a wiretap is warranted, but these are being done without a legal warrant which is required by the Constitution.

The issue becomes are we tapping only international calls, which may or may not involve American citizens who are covered by the Constitution and if we take the time to obtain a warrant will it be too late?

Not knowing how the program works exactly and not knowing exactly how the terrorists work I cannot answer either of these questions.

If this same program were used to stop criminals in the US the case would be thrown out and the criminal set free. It still seems bad to think that this legal issue can allow a criminal to go free, but it makes it illegal for the government to tap into phones for any reason. It prevents government officials from being able to blackmail citizens and stops a party in power from having the ability to spy on the other.

It also allows us to be able to live a life without fear of our government. We fear terrorists and criminals, but do we need to fear the government? If the government were allowed to monitor us whenever and however they pleased what prevents us from eventually reaching a Big Brother type society?

Does it matter if the government is listening in to all my phone calls to my wife? No, I am innocent of any wrong doing. But do I want them to do it? No.
 
Who exactly is saying its UNWARANTED ?????? To who the terrorist ??

the system was working fine until the bleeding hearts came out and srewed it up crying like babies...lots of caught terrorist and plenty of leads on plots...but the idiot crying , whiners had to screw it up....

we are at WAR people , this is not some class debate or a game you get to reset when you die...you screw up real people die because of it.

Unwarranted, as in a warrant is not required.

Both sides of this debate micharacterize the difficulty. The problem is privacy vs. safety. Freedom vs. surveillance. Government vs. Individual. It's not as easy as saying "we need it, move on" or "we don't need it, abide by the law". This is a difficult subject that deserves some respect.

That being said, this is the proper way to go about protecting people. They need to do it in the open, and get the proper legal backing. For the government to simply break the law because they find the law inconvenient undermines everything our country standds for.
 
Honestly if you let something like this go unchecked then one day you might find that a political party is breaking into the offices of another political party and.....oh wait. :sly:

Seriously though, while I want security and I think that something like thsi can goa long way towards security I believe that it needs to be looked at and discussed (perferably without political bias, but what can you do?) in order to ensure that it is done properly and that we don't go against everything that makes our country great.
 
FK, Danoff, I see your points.

But when talking about international criminals that AREN'T covered by the constitution, why should the government have to go through all kinds of changes to tap THEIR phones?
 
no one knows the details of the program ..BECAUSE ITS FRIGGIN SECRET !!

It would'nt work otherwise...we have INSTEAD a bunch of freaken lawyers srewing around with a proven weapon that works ..

NO EVIDENCE has ever been presented that an AMERICAN citizen was Ileegally wiretapped..its a damned POLITICAL crapstorm that back fired and has gone insanely wrong ...and has the potential to KILL people .

We went NUTS at the government for allowing 9 /11 to happen....

SO WHAT DO WE DO ?

We screw up almost every frickin effort they try to PREVENT it from happening again like a bunch of village friggin idiots with ADD .
 
But when talking about international criminals that AREN'T covered by the constitution, why should the government have to go through all kinds of changes to tap THEIR phones?

NO EVIDENCE has ever been presented that an AMERICAN citizen was Ileegally wiretapped..its a damned POLITICAL crapstorm that back fired and has gone insanely wrong ...and has the potential to KILL people .

Which is why I said that it needs to be looked at and discussed (without political bias) to ensure that it isn't violating the rights of any Americans. Granted there is no evidence that any American citizens have had their phones tapped, but there is no evidence the other way either.

Yes, the actions of teh program need to remain a secret, which is why we have an intelligence committe to have oversight over these kinds of things. The program itself can be known about openly, as long as the actual activities within the program are still kept a secret, going no farther than the intelligence oversight committee.

I have no problem with this kind of program as long as it remains within the realm of the Constitution.
 
Which is why I said that it needs to be looked at and discussed (without political bias) to ensure that it isn't violating the rights of any Americans. Granted there is no evidence that any American citizens have had their phones tapped, but there is no evidence the other way either.

Yes, the actions of teh program need to remain a secret, which is why we have an intelligence committe to have oversight over these kinds of things. The program itself can be known about openly, as long as the actual activities within the program are still kept a secret, going no farther than the intelligence oversight committee.

I have no problem with this kind of program as long as it remains within the realm of the Constitution.



the problem is without political bias...

UNFORTUNATELY you have huge group of nitwits who will make anything political as long as it helps defeat the current party in power..to hell with the WAR crap..they think they will deal with it when its their turn..so what if a few thousand or a hundred or one or two people die in the mean time...the more IMPORTANT thing is to get the POWER back,,,screw everyone else..the end justifies the means .

I would like to persononaly line them up and shoot them but I must stick around and support my family..and last i looked it was still an illegal if not totally logical act .**** SARCASM ALERT ***********
 
the problem is without political bias...

UNFORTUNATELY you have huge group of nitwits who will make anything political as long as it helps defeat the current party in power..to hell with the WAR crap..they think they will deal with it when its their turn..so what if a few thousand or a hundred or one or two people die in the mean time...the more IMPORTANT thing is to get the POWER back,,,screw everyone else..the end justifies the means .
I was completey in agreement up to here:
I would like to persononaly line them up and shoot them but I must stick around and support my family..and last i looked it was still an illegal if not totally logical act .
Otherwise it sounds good.
 
ledhed
We went NUTS at the government for allowing 9 /11 to happen....

SO WHAT DO WE DO ?

We screw up almost every frickin effort they try to PREVENT it from happening again like a bunch of village friggin idiots with ADD .

The safety-first campaign always trys to brush civil liberties under the rug. Meanwhile the civil liberty campaign tries to hide the safety issues.

It isn't as simple as just letting them use their "proven weapon that works". The government is not and cannot be above the law... and the law has to be carefully designed to allow for protection of the country while preserving liberties.
 
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