Buttkicker Options - Experience Needed

[Mr Latte]

Ive seen a bit about the Rockwood models but uncertain how they perform, particulary to the Aura Pro models.

For 50 notes you did rather well though.
Look on ebay for Behringer 3102FBQ
Make sure you get the FBQ model, it has fantastic monitoring leds showing the frequencies being used and offers 31 band EQ from 20HZ not 60Hz like many hifi models.
I have 6 of these bought to be used.

 

[museumsteve]

Thanks mate...
I assume I'd need one equaliser per pair of shakers?

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks mate...
I assume I'd need one equaliser per pair of shakers?

Yeah they are stereo...

Try to get one in good nick, many of these have a hard life travelling to gigs.

EDIT:
The shakers you got what is the freq response on them?

 

[museumsteve]

22hz-55hz

 

[museumsteve]

Yeah they are stereo...

Try to get one in good nick, many of these have a hard life travelling to gigs.

There's new ones on ebay for around £100 delivered so may take a punt

 

[Mr Latte]

I recommend you consider buying one Aura Pro and perhaps one BK Mini LFE to compare before buying more of these ones. It would be good to see how these rate against each other too as I have not tested.

Although the 22-55hz is on paper worse than the Aura Pro 20-80Hz.
The Buttkicker Mini LFE would be a better performer costing approx £90 each similar to your Quake model with perhaps a little less oomph.

Depends if you have the newer or older power hungry earthquake tactile units?

 

[readyfe]

Okay, it's been a little while but here's where I am at.

GamePod GT2 EVO PRO is on order and ready for shipment, waiting on the WPS (this week hopefully).
Set up the 'ManCave' with a garden chair, my Rennsport Wheel Stand and currently running the Thrustmaster T500 F1 set up.
I've decided to run a 5.1ch setup which I am absolutely loving and a 720p projector and 88" screen.

Due to stock and availability in Australia I am limited to 2 Buttkicker products only:
Gamer2 (AUD$250) & Wireless Advanced (AUD$500).

Do I need the Advanced ??? Or can I have just as much fun with the one Gamer2 ? I've promised myself I'm not going to get carried away and sticking with 1 mono only...

Thanks...

 

[lemansfanatic]

Go for the gamer 2. Its probably the best/easiest way to get started into tactile and then down the road build upon if you want stereo. i dont know what the other buttkicker you listed was but i know some have gone with the larger more powerfull ones and have had mixed results. the gamer 2 isnt as powerful as an Buttkicker LFE but it will be more suited for vibrations vs jolting you. i think feeling the vibrations of the car acurately is the best you can hope for without going to a full motion rig. When i first started i thought the buttkicker LFE was going to make me feel like i actually hit a wall. i think it is powerfull enough to give you a pretty big shock but then i read people saying the transducer was TOO big when it came to react quick enough to reproduce the engine vibrations acurately, which in the end was more important to me. in summary, if you want to be jolted when you hit a wall, go motion rig $$$, otherwise it would be better to buy multiple smaller transducer units over one larger more powerful one.

 

[HoiHman]

Go for the gamer 2. Its probably the best/easiest way to get started into tactile and then down the road build upon if you want stereo. i dont know what the other buttkicker you listed was but i know some have gone with the larger more powerfull ones and have had mixed results. the gamer 2 isnt as powerful as an Buttkicker LFE but it will be more suited for vibrations vs jolting you. i think feeling the vibrations of the car acurately is the best you can hope for without going to a full motion rig. When i first started i thought the buttkicker LFE was going to make me feel like i actually hit a wall. i think it is powerfull enough to give you a pretty big shock but then i read people saying the transducer was TOO big when it came to react quick enough to reproduce the engine vibrations acurately, which in the end was more important to me. in summary, if you want to be jolted when you hit a wall, go motion rig $$$, otherwise it would be better to buy multiple smaller transducer units over one larger more powerful one.

Still in doubt wether is should buy another BKG2 (which are out of stock again) or go for the isane LFE or a couple of Aura Pro's

I received my BKG2 last week and i love it 👍
Got my seat setup with rubber isolators and the effect is pretty good.

In fact i love it so much, that i want to expand my tactile.
The problem i have now with my BKG2 under my seat is that if i turn it up high enough so i can feel the engine vibrations, the buttkicker bottoms out on heavy crashes ect (F1 2011/Dirt 2 & 3)

I'm thinking expanding it not to stereo left & right, but more something like:

-road/curbs and bumps : in the seat BKG2 or LFE or Aura
-engine vibrations : by the pedals BKG2

I'm probably gonna need an equalizer though to get the settings right.
I just do not know which equalizer to buy and how many sliders it should have under the 200hz Is a 15 band enough or do i need a 31 band

Any help or advice would be much appriciated

 

[lemansfanatic]

My plan is similar due to similar problems. it is a great little shaker for engine noises but bottoms out easily with crashes. let me know what EQ you find and how it works for you. I will look at Aura pros or pucks next for my pedals.

 

[GTP_geoff]

I'm probably gonna need an equalizer though to get the settings right.
I just do not know which equalizer to buy and how many sliders it should have under the 200hz Is a 15 band enough or do i need a 31 band

Any help or advice would be much appriciated

Can i start this post with a disclaimer? I haven't moved into the world of immersion yet, but plan to when I can dedicate a room to it once I move the family to a larger home. But I am a professional sound engineer having worked around the world in some lovely studios.

More bands mean the space between the frequencies are smaller giving you more control. i.e. a 31 band eq is going to be more accurate than a 15 band EQ. (obvious really)

Something that nobody has mentioned is how powerful the EQ actually is. i.e. how many dB a frequency can be cut or boosted.

A domestic EQ may only be able to cut or boost 12 dB.

Semi-pro gear like Behringer (not known for its quality) still only offers 12 dB.

So, in my opinion, a graphic EQ doesn't seem to be the solution? What you guys need is a Low Pass Filter that takes out all frequencies above your selection rather than just making them quieter?

 

[scoddee]

Can i start this post with a disclaimer? I haven't moved into the world of immersion yet, but plan to when I can dedicate a room to it once I move the family to a larger home. But I am a professional sound engineer having worked around the world in some lovely studios.

More bands mean the space between the frequencies are smaller giving you more control. i.e. a 31 band eq is going to be more accurate than a 15 band EQ. (obvious really)

Something that nobody has mentioned is how powerful the EQ actually is. i.e. how many dB a frequency can be cut or boosted.

A domestic EQ may only be able to cut or boost 12 dB.

Semi-pro gear like Behringer (not known for its quality) still only offers 12 dB.

So, in my opinion, a graphic EQ doesn't seem to be the solution? What you guys need is a Low Pass Filter that takes out all frequencies above your selection rather than just making them quieter?

It cuts the frequencies off that clean ? No slope ?

Scotty

 

[Mr Latte]

Do take into account while an EQ like the some of the Behringer range will offer 6-12db in cut/boost you also if using a decent "5.1 or 7.1 Av Receiver" for tactile amplification will have an option to increase the LFE output prior to the EQ to +10db on many models.

While the Behringer models I personally have used may not be the ultimate in quality. I think you will find it hard to get many models for around their price or that offer upto 31 bands and be much better quality. You are more than welcome to recommend a few however.

Using EQ with tactile is very useful on typical channels (L/R/C/RS/LS) with a full range signal. It gives you additional control in changing how the tactile feels and also more options over it's strength. Assuming of course if the user wants to utilise these traditional channels and not just the restricted LFE channel.

It is worth considering hardware like a "subharmonic synthesizer" for LFE channel tactile. I have tested the " ULTRABASS PRO EX1200" which can improve the low frequencies suitable for the "LFE" channel.

Like a speaker/sub configuration I have found using a bigger, more powerful and capable tactile unit for the LFE will give better results as the LFE channel tactile combines with the other channels. The Buttkicker Advance is superb candidate for this and we have several owners of that model who will testify to it's ability and performing better in the LFE role over smaller units and models.

Well I know my own previous testing has been rather pleasing but all this is hobbyist tinkering, trial n error and will require plenty of patience and configuring before achieving really good results.

 

[the_greeze]

^This^ 👍

Also, with regard Behringer quality (I have A500 amps and FBQ-1502 EQ's in my tactile setup), I have no issues with them at all. Worth remembering that the amps and EQ's are driving tactile units, not speakers, so sound quality isn't going to be an issue for me. As for build quality; they're as good if not better than many other AV components I've owned over the years.

These Behringer units get a 👍 from me for tactile applications...

 

[HoiHman]

Can i start this post with a disclaimer? I haven't moved into the world of immersion yet, but plan to when I can dedicate a room to it once I move the family to a larger home. But I am a professional sound engineer having worked around the world in some lovely studios.

More bands mean the space between the frequencies are smaller giving you more control. i.e. a 31 band eq is going to be more accurate than a 15 band EQ. (obvious really)

Something that nobody has mentioned is how powerful the EQ actually is. i.e. how many dB a frequency can be cut or boosted.

A domestic EQ may only be able to cut or boost 12 dB.

Semi-pro gear like Behringer (not known for its quality) still only offers 12 dB.

So, in my opinion, a graphic EQ doesn't seem to be the solution? What you guys need is a Low Pass Filter that takes out all frequencies above your selection rather than just making them quieter?

I'm a total newbie concerning tactile and audio in general.

I did find out that you can do intresting things with an equalizer.
I had my BKG2 connected to an old 7 band equalizer and i could immediately tell the difference.

However i made an inquiry about an equalizer at a dutch webshop and told them that i needed it voor tactile solutions. He gave me the advice to buy an audio crossover http://www.rjshop.nl/DBX-Opruiming-234-S-Audio-Crossover/nl/product/28098/ . Not that i realy have a budget, but over 200 euro's is more that i want to spend for just choosing the frequenties.

So i guess you're probably right about using something else than an equalizer, but i'm sure that Mr Latte and the_greeze know their tactile and i would love to "pink their brain" and hope they can help me in my situation.

It would be nice if an expert would step up and make an extensive FAQ about tactile solutions.

 

[readyfe]

Like a speaker/sub configuration I have found using a bigger, more powerful and capable tactile unit for the LFE will give better results as the LFE channel tactile combines with the other channels. The Buttkicker Advance is superb candidate for this and we have several owners of that model who will testify to it's ability and performing better in the LFE role over smaller units and models.

Hey Mr Latte,

So.. If I am sticking with 1 mono tactile (for now, for a while) then the Advance is the recommended one over the Gamer2 - basically, it is worth the upgrade? Knowing I will be running the GamePod GT2 EVO (I ordered the Rubber Isolation bushes also).

And later on I was thinking rather than going stereo tactile I can add a BK MiniLFE and run it off the BKA300-4 for under the Pedal Positioning System ?

Thanks, frede

 

[genius73]

wow, im confussed. a lot to take in. is it possible to power a tactile driver right from a powered 100w subwoofer. either line out of the woofer to a amp for the driver, or right out from the woofer with the r/L speaker wires. it would simplify things alot. thanks for any insight.

 

[readyfe]

The line out is not amplified I don't think, it is just the LFE signal. So you still need to amplify the transducer with something capable of handling low frequencies (LFE).

 

[Dragon_Dude]

wow, im confussed. a lot to take in. is it possible to power a tactile driver right from a powered 100w subwoofer. either line out of the woofer to a amp for the driver, or right out from the woofer with the r/L speaker wires. it would simplify things alot. thanks for any insight.

Yes, but if your connecting both L and R channels to one driver you may want to use a ground loop isolator to filter out unwanted frequencies.

 

[genius73]

ok thanks guys.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hey Mr Latte,

So.. If I am sticking with 1 mono tactile (for now, for a while) then the Advance is the recommended one over the Gamer2 - basically, it is worth the upgrade? Knowing I will be running the GamePod GT2 EVO (I ordered the Rubber Isolation bushes also).

And later on I was thinking rather than going stereo tactile I can add a BK MiniLFE and run it off the BKA300-4 for under the Pedal Positioning System ?

Thanks, frede

Are you for using the GT Evo Buttkicker seat bracket?
The Advance is a better quality of tactile, more impact at lower volumes and larger units like it and the biggest LFE model can disperse the effect much further. Having tactile on the pedals, gearstick is nice but personally I would recommend a stereo configuration and the larger "Advance" model for LFE, then see about the pedals etc.


Left/Centre/Right (past testing) wooden inserts were used in the gap to help transfer tactile into the seat base.


My own build uses the Gamepod BK plate but modified with the nicer Cobra seat mounts also attached. Still got lots of more testing coming soon myself and will work with various placements before I decide on the final set configuration.


Cobra mounts attached to the Gamepod base mount.


It very much is trial and error but I will give you whatever help from just experience I've gathered in the past with my own messing around with things and different tactile models.


Current testing is using the "Dayton Puck" this can slide up in below the cover on the front sides and the shoulder sections of the seat. They need some form of rubber pocket cover and secure mounting to prevent rattling. The Clarke TST209 produces more detailed tactile and more midrange but has less impact than the Mini LFE models.

I've found some models react differently and suit different roles too. The Dayton Pucks are great for fitting into small places but certainly will need fine tuning to tone down their annoying sound. They are really noisy if used on stereo so work better with LFE restricted to a low HZ setting and minimal power. Great for enhancing tactile already in place, well that's my latest plan. They provide an excellent solution if controlled to get your tactile to reach places it may be hard to with other models.


Just an example of my latest plans:
The BK LFE isn't attached here yet but may end up going on the metal Gamepod mount as a good foundation for the whole seat. It is possible if all goes to plan the seat will have 12-13 tactile. I'm not convinced with the "Centre Mini LFE" in below and the 4x Pucks are on trial, they are a recent addition.







Not wanting to take over this thread just wanting to inspire some of you and the above can be deleted if it offends or causes issues. Please do not ask me about my own build here, PM thanks.

 

[mikochu]

jeez.

 

[HoiHman]

👍 Well Mr Latte, you leave me speechless 👍

And i was just thinking that only two mini LFE's will rock my seat.

Very very nice

 

[lemansfanatic]

Im curious about these mini LFE units as well. what amp do you use to drive those? One per amp like the gamer 2? How do they compare performance wise to the gamer 2 and/or Dayton pucks?

 

[Mr Latte]

👍 Well Mr Latte, you leave me speechless 👍

And i was just thinking that only two mini LFE's will rock my seat.

Very very nice

Well this is only the seat, lots more going on for the cockpit and room, right down to acoustic tiles and a few surprises. I told you it could get hold of you but I'm just on a personal crusade for taking it pretty much to the max.

Im curious about these mini LFE units as well. what amp do you use to drive those? One per amp like the gamer 2? How do they compare performance wise to the gamer 2 and/or Dayton pucks?

A decent 4ohm amplifier is recommended. I personally prefer using a decent 7.1 amplifier with 100w or more per channel. Well ideal for running multiple units with surround decoding. You can use a stereo or multiple amps of course. Mini LFE is a well recommended choice.

 

[lemansfanatic]

A decent 4ohm amplifier is recommended. I personally prefer using a decent 7.1 amplifier with 100w or more per channel. Well ideal for running multiple units with surround decoding. You can use a stereo or multiple amps of course. Mini LFE is a well recommended choice.

Okay let me make sure, so signal chain would go: Computer audio out, to 7.1 surround, to equalizer/filter, then to each Mini LFE. That many units isnt going to draw too much power from the receiver (7 units or 1 per channel)? is there an equilizer that is recommended for this type of application? SORRY FOR THE HIJAK! (subscribed)

 

[VINCE__]

@Latte, my friend you are going to feel like a bowl of Jello after running a race. All that speaker immersion is awesome. Nice job and kudos to you on the diligent hard work.

 

[readyfe]

Okay let me make sure, so signal chain would go: Computer audio out, to 7.1 surround, to equalizer/filter, then to each Mini LFE. That many units isnt going to draw too much power from the receiver (7 units or 1 per channel)? is there an equilizer that is recommended for this type of application? SORRY FOR THE HIJAK! (subscribed)

So if you have 1 x 5.1ch Receiver and 5 Tactile devices. For each left and right you use an Equaliser (Behringer Ultragraph FBQ3102 Graphic Equaliser) and probably use another equaliser for the centre signal only using one channel. The equaliser will allow you to filter out normal speakers sounds and get to the lower frequencies otherwise all noises will make the transducer rumble.

So it's 1 x Receiver for a 5.1ch, 3 Stereo Graphic Equalisers & 5 Tactile transducers.. For a transducer to run off the Sub-Woofer (.1ch) line it will require it's own amplifer like the one with the gamer2 or other models like the Dayton range of woofer plate amps.

That's as simple as I can put it. But I could be wrong.....

Hope that helps..

 

[readyfe]

Latest update, just ordered my Buttkicker Wireless Advanced Kit.
Includes the BKA300-4 Powered Amplifier and the Advance BK4-4 Transducer...

Hopefully arrives late next week or early week after. The journey I feel has only just begun

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for comments guys...
The Advance is a really nice unit and will rock most cockpits.

So if you have 1 x 5.1ch Receiver and 5 Tactile devices. For each left and right you use an Equaliser (Behringer Ultragraph FBQ3102 Graphic Equaliser) and probably use another equaliser for the centre signal only using one channel. The equaliser will allow you to filter out normal speakers sounds and get to the lower frequencies otherwise all noises will make the transducer rumble.

So it's 1 x Receiver for a 5.1ch, 3 Stereo Graphic Equalisers & 5 Tactile transducers.. For a transducer to run off the Sub-Woofer (.1ch) line it will require it's own amplifer like the one with the gamer2 or other models like the Dayton range of woofer plate amps.

That's as simple as I can put it. But I could be wrong.....

Hope that helps..

That is pretty much it. The issue is finding a 4ohm Reciever these days and if your wanting to go into multiple amps then you also need a model with upto 7.1 PRE-OUT. It would be possible to wire 2x 4ohm tactile to match a 8ohm load which most current models use. Caution and trial/error is needed as tactile can be quite demanding for an amplifier.

A combination of PRE-OUT & MULTICHANNEL INPUTS is the route needed for my plans. For instance I have 4x 7.1 Recievers all branching off the 1st one which decodes or handles the audio source. This also required additional distribution boxes to increase having for example 1x right channel into my current plan of using 7x right/left channels with a combination in the seat, base platform, pedals and also subwoofer. I then will have a seperate amp for 2000w going into dual LFE subwoofers behind the seat and in below the Sim Experience actuators.

The more tactile you have the less volume is needed but you also get a wider and more controlled spread of effects. A single unit has what I've termed as a "HOT SPOT" in that most will run it at high volume it's tactile footprint is strong at the centre and can often be too strong, working beyond it's optimal performance. Having multiple units gives you a much more effective and better spread of effects even at low volumes.

You guys have a lot more to see yet, this is nothing....