Buttkicker Options - Experience Needed
- Thread starter readyfe
- 308 comments
- 48,391 views
- 1,818
- Alberta
- left888
There are a multitude of ways of going about getting your dose of rig tactile response. I myself have experimented extensively over the past two years. I see from time to time where some members go way overboard on tactile.
While there is nothing wrong with have 20 different pucks, shakers and buttkickers it is really not needed. I took a much more practical approach, I divided my rig into 3 separate zones. One buttkicker behind the pedals, another under the seat. Two Aura bass shakers on each side of the seat.
I experimented with different crossover frequencies and outputs from my 7.1 A/V receiver. Both the buttkickers are gamer 2's and are feed from a powered LFE channel at different frequencies. I should explain I now race strictly iRacing, I have every PC Sim racer out their and some are very good and others are marginal at best. When you want a hardcore racer iRacing leads the pack for me. For those that have not tried iRacing it is racing only, no music, just car engines and associated racetrack sounds.
So I found that having a left and right buttkicker under my seat had benefits, for me I could feel a better tactile response by have forward and back zones. I now only need to adjust each buttkicker amp for each different car. So for example I am too early on my apex and find myself going over a rumble strip the front end shakes nicely followed by the seat which absorbs much lower frequencies.
The Aura bass shakers are feed from the output of my A/V receiver to the input of a Dayton amp and they behave almost like trail braking does except from the seat buttkicker to the bass shakers on the lower seat.
So very easily I set up 3 zones and I might add a fourth zone using X-sim software. One of the good set ups on this forum is from the_greeze, check out his rig for a great set up.
Basically one does not need to spend hundreds of dollars to get a awesome tactile experience. I know several of you have PM'ed me for advice and I would be more then happy to continue this way, shoot me a PM if you have any questions.
While there is nothing wrong with have 20 different pucks, shakers and buttkickers it is really not needed. I took a much more practical approach, I divided my rig into 3 separate zones. One buttkicker behind the pedals, another under the seat. Two Aura bass shakers on each side of the seat.
I experimented with different crossover frequencies and outputs from my 7.1 A/V receiver. Both the buttkickers are gamer 2's and are feed from a powered LFE channel at different frequencies. I should explain I now race strictly iRacing, I have every PC Sim racer out their and some are very good and others are marginal at best. When you want a hardcore racer iRacing leads the pack for me. For those that have not tried iRacing it is racing only, no music, just car engines and associated racetrack sounds.
So I found that having a left and right buttkicker under my seat had benefits, for me I could feel a better tactile response by have forward and back zones. I now only need to adjust each buttkicker amp for each different car. So for example I am too early on my apex and find myself going over a rumble strip the front end shakes nicely followed by the seat which absorbs much lower frequencies.
The Aura bass shakers are feed from the output of my A/V receiver to the input of a Dayton amp and they behave almost like trail braking does except from the seat buttkicker to the bass shakers on the lower seat.
So very easily I set up 3 zones and I might add a fourth zone using X-sim software. One of the good set ups on this forum is from the_greeze, check out his rig for a great set up.
Basically one does not need to spend hundreds of dollars to get a awesome tactile experience. I know several of you have PM'ed me for advice and I would be more then happy to continue this way, shoot me a PM if you have any questions.
- 1,326
- SC
Lots of good advice in here, thanks guys
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,064
- N Ireland
Here's a tip and has been my own experience.
I started with the Buttkicker Advance, quite impressive but in reality 1x tactile is an enjoyable yet limited experience.
Added stereo Buttkicker Mini LFE units for directional effects but also using the bigger Advance model on the LFE channel. I can assure people that having a better/bigger Model for "low frequency effects" works better than using identical models. The reason is the LFE channel is fed the low bass from the other channels. So it strengthens the tactile they already produce. What began happening for me was experimenting in having extra tactile in pedals, gearstick, wheel shelf. So extend the tactile sensation to other body parts for additional immersion.
Utilising surround channels is when people are starting to see things as OTT. If they havnt personally tried a full 5.1 or 7.1 tactile configuration then they cannot justifiably make criticisim or comment. Many games utilise the surround channels extensively and having extra tactile at the sides or back of your seat will of course further enrich the experience. In some games you can even feel approaching cars engines in your back for example.
Utilising the "Centre" audio channel can be great for engine vibrations and used to good effect on pedals, gearsticks or wheel supports. Yet it gets lost in left - right or right - left transitions on my seat so I'd likely remove the "Centre" underneath the seat.
I will learn much more on my own build and really this is an unsupported yet experimental thing but sure is fun and addictive.
I started with the Buttkicker Advance, quite impressive but in reality 1x tactile is an enjoyable yet limited experience.
Added stereo Buttkicker Mini LFE units for directional effects but also using the bigger Advance model on the LFE channel. I can assure people that having a better/bigger Model for "low frequency effects" works better than using identical models. The reason is the LFE channel is fed the low bass from the other channels. So it strengthens the tactile they already produce. What began happening for me was experimenting in having extra tactile in pedals, gearstick, wheel shelf. So extend the tactile sensation to other body parts for additional immersion.
Utilising surround channels is when people are starting to see things as OTT. If they havnt personally tried a full 5.1 or 7.1 tactile configuration then they cannot justifiably make criticisim or comment. Many games utilise the surround channels extensively and having extra tactile at the sides or back of your seat will of course further enrich the experience. In some games you can even feel approaching cars engines in your back for example.
Utilising the "Centre" audio channel can be great for engine vibrations and used to good effect on pedals, gearsticks or wheel supports. Yet it gets lost in left - right or right - left transitions on my seat so I'd likely remove the "Centre" underneath the seat.
I will learn much more on my own build and really this is an unsupported yet experimental thing but sure is fun and addictive.
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- 816
- Albuquerque, NM
- jswilli1 / GTP_jswilli1 (GT5 only)
- jswilli1
Like Latte stated, having a Tactile setup in True surround on seperate channels is something to experience. My current setup is 1 Aura Pro in the pedals on center channel, 2 Clark TST209's for left/right channels, and 1 BK Advance off the LFE channel. The output from my PS3 is feeding a 5.1 signal to the transducers. I am not running Surround sound due to my Onkyo 805 not passing the 3D signal to the TV and shutting down the video processing in the amp. GT5 in 3D is nothing short of spectacular and coupled with tactile surround is pure joy. Nascar in GT5 (B-spec) or Remote Race will truly work out your Rig as you will feel every bump from the cars from the left, right, and center channels as you go three deep in the turns. I played in 2ch mode from the PS3 using sound fields with the same transducers and it is not the same! Tactile is still in it's infancy and I think will be the next big thing in gaming.
- 816
- Albuquerque, NM
- jswilli1 / GTP_jswilli1 (GT5 only)
- jswilli1
Latest update, just ordered my Buttkicker Wireless Advanced Kit.
Includes the BKA300-4 Powered Amplifier and the Advance BK4-4 Transducer...
Hopefully arrives late next week or early week after. The journey I feel has only just begun
You will truly enjoy this! I have had mine going on 3.5 yrs now and still enjoying what it has to offer!
- 816
- Albuquerque, NM
- jswilli1 / GTP_jswilli1 (GT5 only)
- jswilli1
- 218
- Glasgow, UK
- GTP_geoff
The slope is steep. The effect can be heard in dance music when the highs and mids drop right out, this is created with a Low Pass Filter (LPF) and when all the lows drop out, this is created with a High Pass Filter (HPF)
Here's a simple circuit that if given a 15 volt ac supply and a power amp would provide all the processing necessary for 1 channel if you don't have a dedicated LFE output from a sub.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-bass-processing-circuit-low-pass-filter-board-finished-amplifer-NEW-/220951586717?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL&hash=item3371bda79d#ht_1612wt_950
If anyone out there was a dab hand at soldering and fabrication, quite a smart unit with 5 or 7 channels of LPF could be made to control full surround "immersion"?
But I'm not sure how to integrate this to have control over each channel? Do the AV amps you guys have utilise pre-amp outs or is the only breakout the final speaker outputs? Another question is, do the AV amps actually drive the buttkickers or just supply the audio before you use dedicated amps?
Does any of this make sense Mr Latte? I'm creating more questions in my head than answering anybody elses.
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- 1,166
- The Netherlands
- HoiHman
- HoiHman
Love this thread:👍
Just started to expand my tactile setup. Lots of good info here!
I got suprised by an early delivery of the mini LFE's today. The two mini LFE's are running great (paralel) on the BKA130c (BKG2 amp)
I ordered the Behringer 31 band equalizer and it will arrive tommorow.
(still need to find a space to put it though)
This will give me some more controle on the desired tactile frequenties.
Just started to expand my tactile setup. Lots of good info here!
I got suprised by an early delivery of the mini LFE's today. The two mini LFE's are running great (paralel) on the BKA130c (BKG2 amp)
I ordered the Behringer 31 band equalizer and it will arrive tommorow.
(still need to find a space to put it though)
This will give me some more controle on the desired tactile frequenties.
- 1,818
- Alberta
- left888
One thing that often gets overlooked is the sound output of each game. Whether it is tactile surround 5.1, it is dependent on the sound engineering of each game. So you guys that are using EQ's can play around with you tactile surround and perhaps get great benefits. iRacing does have better engine sounds then GT5 but I'm not sold on whether tactile EQ is even needed, I have played around with my 10 band Pioneer EQ but for iRacing the benefits are minimal. I will talk to the_greeze about this, he is probably the most experienced with iRacing and tactile surround.
In my 3 zoned approach and iRacing I have found it is preforming very well. So I ask myself should I spend more money on my tactile approach or could that money go to other areas of my rig? Well the answer is easy, I am going to start on a new dash with more analog instruments and perhaps add that 4th zone with 2 more Aura bass shakers and another Dayton amp another day.
As mentioned earlier this thread offers some good perspectives. While I do have a decent supply of disposable income I do not see a need to spend the money some of you do on tactile. I want to have a well functioning rig but I will keep it well balanced as well.
I would much sooner be out on the track racing then talking about whether this or that will work. My advice is plan out your rig in zones that you want you tactile to work. Simplify areas instead of complicating them. It's fine to experiment on a WIP rig but with your race rig keep your tactile to 3 or 4 zones and plan what you want to do with other aspects of your rig. If it is a PC rig you can add so many more features such as button boxes and the likes.
In my 3 zoned approach and iRacing I have found it is preforming very well. So I ask myself should I spend more money on my tactile approach or could that money go to other areas of my rig? Well the answer is easy, I am going to start on a new dash with more analog instruments and perhaps add that 4th zone with 2 more Aura bass shakers and another Dayton amp another day.
As mentioned earlier this thread offers some good perspectives. While I do have a decent supply of disposable income I do not see a need to spend the money some of you do on tactile. I want to have a well functioning rig but I will keep it well balanced as well.
I would much sooner be out on the track racing then talking about whether this or that will work. My advice is plan out your rig in zones that you want you tactile to work. Simplify areas instead of complicating them. It's fine to experiment on a WIP rig but with your race rig keep your tactile to 3 or 4 zones and plan what you want to do with other aspects of your rig. If it is a PC rig you can add so many more features such as button boxes and the likes.
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- 1,166
- The Netherlands
- HoiHman
- HoiHman
Your right left888, if you're setting up your rig for only one game a EQ is probably not needed. However if you want a good tactile feedback in multiple racing games, you sometimes need to make adjustments and an EQ will come in handy.
The big problem is indeed that one is completely dependent of the sound that comes with the game. As i mentioned in the Fanatec topic, it would be nice if there would be a wheel with a "sub out". This would extend the FFB from the wheel to the seat. It would be great too have that as a extra zone.
The big problem is indeed that one is completely dependent of the sound that comes with the game. As i mentioned in the Fanatec topic, it would be nice if there would be a wheel with a "sub out". This would extend the FFB from the wheel to the seat. It would be great too have that as a extra zone.
- 1,818
- Alberta
- left888
Speaking of using various games you would probably need to make minor adjustments for each game with your EQ. It's to bad I can't store presets on my EQ or even on the buttkickers, then it would be easy to switch cars. When I switch cars in iRacing I need to make various tweaks to set them up. Currently I am running the new Cadillac CTS-VR and it is a handful of beastly sounds and performance 
Great idea on the sub out, the more I think about it I think I will add a 4th zone. Too many irons in the fire and I will lose focus.
How much are the mini LFE's HoiHman? Perhaps a set of those or 2 more Aura bass shakers I will add. I absolutely don't want to over do the shaking of my rig. It is real easy to add to much tactile effects and then you lose the immersion factor. Too much is no good.
Great idea on the sub out, the more I think about it I think I will add a 4th zone. Too many irons in the fire and I will lose focus.
How much are the mini LFE's HoiHman? Perhaps a set of those or 2 more Aura bass shakers I will add. I absolutely don't want to over do the shaking of my rig. It is real easy to add to much tactile effects and then you lose the immersion factor. Too much is no good.
- 1,818
- Alberta
- left888
Ya I did glance at that thread David wrote about it. I think I will run my 4th zone if/when I get around to it, I have an older PC I can run x-sim with. I do recall him mentioning something in regards to that. I will have to re-visit that thread.
There are so many threads over at iRacing on tactile effects, it is a great resource over their.
There are so many threads over at iRacing on tactile effects, it is a great resource over their.
- 1,011
- UK
- the_greeze
Since the latest iRacing build and updates, the sound has been greatly improved 👍. So much so, that I need to reconfigure the settings on the EQ's and amps (which is good; I'm all for improvement!) You can really feel the bass now (something I thought was a bit lacking in previous builds) and I think the surround sound is improved too.
As for whether EQ's are required; well, perhaps not so much in iRacing (you're right) but they are still useful for trimming out the high-end frequencies particularly on the Aura Pros I use. In GT5 I was constantly fiddling around with settings where as on iRacing, once the EQ's are set, all I change (dependant on car) is the overall audio volume and the output levels for each tactile unit. I have a small spreadsheet of settings I refer to to make it easier!
I'm gonna play around with the settings today so I'll report back soon
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- 1,166
- The Netherlands
- HoiHman
- HoiHman
Speaking of using various games you would probably need to make minor adjustments for each game with your EQ. It's to bad I can't store presets on my EQ or even on the buttkickers, then it would be easy to switch cars. When I switch cars in iRacing I need to make various tweaks to set them up. Currently I am running the new Cadillac CTS-VR and it is a handful of beastly sounds and performance
Great idea on the sub out, the more I think about it I think I will add a 4th zone. Too many irons in the fire and I will lose focus.
How much are the mini LFE's HoiHman? Perhaps a set of those or 2 more Aura bass shakers I will add. I absolutely don't want to over do the shaking of my rig. It is real easy to add to much tactile effects and then you lose the immersion factor. Too much is no good.
The mini LFE's are pretty expensive here in europe, but so is the BKG2 kit. Mine were 111 euro each.
You're right about switching cars and having to make adjustments, that's why i want my EQ within reach, so i can adjust from my seat.
This morning i suddenly "found" the space i was looking for, so i will be trying to mount there today. I will report back how i like the improvement with the EQ. I might even have also found a space to put an extra, but i have to think about that first (almost running out of budget)
Which bass shaker would you guys advise for the engine sounds and whats best under the seat or at the pedals?
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- 1,818
- Alberta
- left888
Since the latest iRacing build and updates, the sound has been greatly improved 👍. So much so, that I need to reconfigure the settings on the EQ's and amps (which is good; I'm all for improvement!) You can really feel the bass now (something I thought was a bit lacking in previous builds) and I think the surround sound is improved too.
As for whether EQ's are required; well, perhaps not so much in iRacing (you're right) but they are still useful for trimming out the high-end frequencies particularly on the Aura Pros I use. In GT5 I was constantly fiddling around with settings where as on iRacing, once the EQ's are set, all I change (dependant on car) is the overall audio volume and the output levels for each tactile unit. I have a small spreadsheet of settings I refer to to make it easier!
I'm gonna play around with the settings today so I'll report back soon
I agree the sound is improving with each build now. I gave the Ford GT, 20 or 30 laps at Spa and the Prototype half that on the new build. The C6R I haven't even touched yet. I have been giving the Caddy a workout. I modified Eric's setup for Lime Rock and have been getting in the low 50's. I love the engine sounds of that Caddy, the price was perfect.
I might re connect my EQ and give it another go, truth be told is I have a massive amount of clutter on my rig now, I would love to get it minimized. I definitely want to work with you on tactile immersion. I think you have a lot of experience in it, I would like to view your spreadsheets as well, I might have a few ideas you might be interested in.
I kind of thought those mini LFE's would be expensive. Well at least it gives me some more idea's. As I said above about EQ's, they are great if you have the room for them. If you could keep a lot of presets that would be ideal for switching cars or games.
I would go with the Aura bass shakers. These are the ones I have, along with a Dayton Amp.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,064
- N Ireland
Experiment with your own setup is the best answer.
The Mini LFE outperforms the Aura Pro and Gamer but the Aura Pro are good enough with low end stuff, the Mini LFE can produce more detail, noticeable on music testing and Id say they react better in their timing too.
Do try and use music for testing as well as games.
The BK Advance is what Id recommend for LFE in the long run and see for yourself how the Gamer compares to the Mini LFE. Do however look to try stereo tactile on the seat combined with a LFE unit and see if you like that.
Compare using Centre to LFE output on the pedals....
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- 1,166
- The Netherlands
- HoiHman
- HoiHman
Thanks Mr Latte, i will try the BKG2 first on the pedals on the Center speaker.
I got a question about the bottoming out of the buttkickers
I'm running two mini LFE's under my seat and they feel great, but in some games i have to turn them up to feel the engine vibration.
This can result that sometime the buttkickers buttom out, you can hear them rattling. For example: the jumps in Dirt2.
It's obvious that if i turn the volume down this will disappear, but i will also loose some of the vibration strenght.
Will this occasional rattling harm the buttkickers or not?
I got a question about the bottoming out of the buttkickers
I'm running two mini LFE's under my seat and they feel great, but in some games i have to turn them up to feel the engine vibration.
This can result that sometime the buttkickers buttom out, you can hear them rattling. For example: the jumps in Dirt2.
It's obvious that if i turn the volume down this will disappear, but i will also loose some of the vibration strenght.
Will this occasional rattling harm the buttkickers or not?
- 1,326
- SC
So i am seeing that prices for the advance are about the same as two mini LFEs...hmmm decisions decisions...
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,064
- N Ireland
I reckon good to get the Advance first...
It is strong enough to have an effect through most of your rig.
I first used mine on my Gamepod cockpit and you could feel the vibrations/tactile right into the pedals and wheel upright.
HoiHman got your PM and replied...
Buttkicker Gamer amps are not renowned for their reliability. I've seen stories in several forums over the last couple of years. However the newer model isn't as bad as the original.
Just as a subwoofer can bottom out it very much is dependant on combination of the source being played, the settings on your amplification/EQ etc or indeed crossover. With games a sound or effect that has an extended dynamic range or louder presence over other effects within the game is a common issue and culprit. Codemasters Dirt 3 menus and indeed I recall Shift 2 had menu effects that were much louder than the in-game effects and caused this issue.
I know of absolutely no reference that it harms an amplifer as it can happen even below peak amplification, yet it is more likely on the Gamer/Mini LFE and Mini Concert models due to their size and lliklyhood most people run them with the amplifiers close to or at max. It can happen on all the Buttkickers I've owned/tested including the Advance and top of the range LFE models.
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- 298
- Sydney, NSW
- readyfe
For someone who doesn't understand 'ohms' I have a DSE A2760 Amplifier lying around and wondering if I could use this to run 2 x BK Mini LFE. I will need to buy a Behringer EQ (as recommended in this post before) and can source the signal from my PS3's L&R Composite Out. This will work along side the Buttkicker Advance I'm setting up off my LFE signal on my receiver.
Specifications for A2760:
Frequency Response 20Hz ~ 20kHz (1+dB)
Output Power: >=50W+50W (8ohm+8ohm)
Peak music Power: 50W+500W (8ohm+8ohm)
Total harmonic distortion: <=0.5% (20Hz ~ 20kHz 50W)
SNR: >=85dB A-Weighted
Power Consumption <=250W
Thanks, Fred
- additional thoughts - might be a problem as I set the sound in the in game menu to Surround Sound which means the signal might not come out on the composite..?
Specifications for A2760:
Frequency Response 20Hz ~ 20kHz (1+dB)
Output Power: >=50W+50W (8ohm+8ohm)
Peak music Power: 50W+500W (8ohm+8ohm)
Total harmonic distortion: <=0.5% (20Hz ~ 20kHz 50W)
SNR: >=85dB A-Weighted
Power Consumption <=250W
Thanks, Fred
- additional thoughts - might be a problem as I set the sound in the in game menu to Surround Sound which means the signal might not come out on the composite..?
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- 298
- Sydney, NSW
- readyfe
Yes of course.. Two ways, they have a splitter from the receiver to split one sub line out to the woofer and the other to the BK. Other option is if your sub has a line out to run a line to your BK Amp..
Hope this helps.. There's some user guides on the BK site - I'll find you some links.
See attached
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Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,064
- N Ireland
Also if you look at wiring diagrams on Buttkicker's website it is possible to wire 2x units for an 8ohm load on one channel. See how this is done then both will work as a single mono unit.
That DSE A2760 amplifer may struggle though and a quick google gives the impression it's not the best of quality. Tactile is rather demanding so it's use at your own risk. Personally I'd say look for a recommended alternative and 4ohm if possible.
That DSE A2760 amplifer may struggle though and a quick google gives the impression it's not the best of quality. Tactile is rather demanding so it's use at your own risk. Personally I'd say look for a recommended alternative and 4ohm if possible.
