California to ban power-hungry TVs?

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Seriously? People should be allowed to smoke everywhere, because everyone who doesn't like it may leave? So what if people smoke at my workplace, at my favourite bar, club, whatever? I stay at home all day to stay healthy?

People should be allowed to do whatever wholly legal activity they want on private property if the property owner permits it, yes.

If you feel strongly enough, you go elsewhere. If enough people feel strongly enough and go elsewhere, businesses get the idea that they're losing business (or profits, which are evil) by allowing smoking and ban it of their own accord - or fail to adapt and die. And no MPs ever got involved.


Or you could throw billions of dollars of public money at "fixing" the non-existant problem by trampling on property rights and watch thousands of businesses go under at the forced adaptation costs and loss of trade. 👍
 
People should be allowed to do whatever wholly legal activity they want on private property if the property owner permits it, yes.

If you feel strongly enough, you go elsewhere. If enough people feel strongly enough and go elsewhere, businesses get the idea that they're losing business (or profits, which are evil) by allowing smoking and ban it of their own accord - or fail to adapt and die. And no MPs ever got involved.


Or you could throw billions of dollars of public money at "fixing" the non-existant problem by trampling on property rights and watch thousands of businesses go under at the forced adaptation costs and loss of trade. 👍
Well put, I agree to this.

By the way, there is a law which protects non-smoking employees from smoke in Germany ("Arbeitsstättenverordnung; §5 - Nichtraucherschutz"), but it is worded quite "broadly", which allows employers to find easy solutions for all parties involved.
 
Well put, I agree to this.

By the way, there is a law which protects non-smoking employees from smoke in Germany ("Arbeitsstättenverordnung; §5 - Nichtraucherschutz"), but it is worded quite "broadly", which allows employers to find easy solutions for all parties involved.
Finally we're all on the same page. We tried for 3 pages, Famine did it in three sentences, but we finally agree on something. Schwoo.

And in comparison to your German smoking law, we happen to have a law in Ohio banning smoking in...everywhere except your home, basically.

But if the place does business which caters to any vice--drinking, tits, etc--nobody obeys the law. People who fork out money to get drunk or check out strippers are simply going to smoke where ever they please. That's just who they are. :lol:
 
Finally we're all on the same page. We tried for 3 pages, Famine did it in three sentences, but we finally agree on something. Schwoo.
Oh, I agreed to the stupidity of the light bulb ban all along. :P

And we just see the TV thing from very different angles. You think it's very bad, because you see the symbolic act of your government in another attempt to cut down your rights as a free citizen. I think it doesn't really matter, because I concentrate on the content of the case: flatscreen TVs are going to improve anyway, and the government is just trying to support that drift. I don't really see a need for them to intervene, but I don't understand it as that big of a deal either.
 
Don't get me wrong, I get what you are all pointing to, which is choice. Maybe you lot have more faith in people making good choices, I will always believe there are circumstances when choice should be taken away, be it for health or environmental reasons, like as someone mentioned, the banning of leaded fuel in the US in the 70s.
 
That could revive rear projection TV's. The latest ones by Sony etc had a perfect picture quality and moderate prices...
 
Don't get me wrong, I get what you are all pointing to, which is choice. Maybe you lot have more faith in people making good choices, I will always believe there are circumstances when choice should be taken away, be it for health or environmental reasons, like as someone mentioned, the banning of leaded fuel in the US in the 70s.

I don't understand this. It is every human being's right to interact in voluntary exchange with other human beings. If that means that I'm poisoning myself with cigarette smoke or crack that's my choice. You have no right to take that decision away from me.

Now, if I'm poisoning your air against your will, that's a different story. A law against power-hungry television sets is an attempt to curtail forcible pollution of other peoples' property. The principle is acceptable to me. It's a protection of property rights. The problem is the implementation. The people with the television sets are not the polluters. They're consuming a product (electricity) that they've exchanged money for. There is no pollution in that transaction. Simply put, televisions sets are not responsible for pollution. They simply consume electricity - they infringe nobody's rights.

To properly protect property rights trampled by pollution, it is necessary to go after the polluter. In this case, the polluter is the one generating the electricity. The polluter (power company) must be prevented from trampling property rights. This may require some sort of emissions cap. The polluter is then free to find whatever means necessary to avoid infringing the property rights of others. This might mean creating a wind farm, solar array, finding a cleaner burning fuel, finding a way to capture emissions, or by simply producing a limited amount of electricity. This, naturally, would translate into an increased price of electricity which would then encourage people to use less electricity thereby potentially prompting the purchase of a more efficient television set (if that is the financially practical way to reduce electricity - which I suspect it isn't).

That's how it's supposed to work. The end result is achieved and no infringement of rights is required. But preventing individuals from purchasing a set of electronics that consumes electricity is an infringement of rights.
 
I'm not sure if your chain of logic is factually correct. California's Energy Commission seems to want to introduce a standard which requires manufacturers to only produce TV sets which fulfil certain standards in terms of energy consumption. This law will not actively limit anyones personal choice of TV at the shops, since there will simply be no energy-guzzlers on offer. Wouldn't this be exactly the same as setting standards for pollution for the power companies?

And on a sidenote: given this law will make it, the result will be energy-saving TVs from a certain point in time. Applying the "proper" way as you described it, people would be pushed into buying energy-saving TVs through increased energy costs. Now, in all honesty, who of you would prefer the latter plan, because it preserves your rights as a free citizen? Who of you would welcome a law which increases your power bill instead of one that does nothing but bring the latest TVs to your local shops?
 
It's not increasing my power bill unless I choose to buy a power-hungry tv, but the choice is mine to make.

So yes, I would much prefer having the choice in my own hands, and preserving my (eroding) rights as a free citizen.
 
Applying the "proper" way as you described it, people would be pushed into buying energy-saving TVs through increased energy costs. Now, in all honesty, who of you would prefer the latter plan, because it preserves your rights as a free citizen? Who of you would welcome a law which increases your power bill instead of one that does nothing but bring the latest TVs to your local shops?
While I'm passing no actual judgement on either choice, the "proper" way at least attempts to solve the actual problem.
 
It's not increasing my power bill unless I choose to buy a power-hungry tv, but the choice is mine to make.

So yes, I would much prefer having the choice in my own hands, and preserving my (eroding) rights as a free citizen.
But you are aware that increased energy costs would drive your bill up for every watt your devices consume, not only your television?

While I'm passing no actual judgement on either choice, the "proper" way at least attempts to solve the actual problem.
Both ways will solve the problem, but just one will leave your rights fully intact.
 
I don't understand this. It is every human being's right to interact in voluntary exchange with other human beings. If that means that I'm poisoning myself with cigarette smoke or crack that's my choice. You have no right to take that decision away from me.

Now, if I'm poisoning your air against your will, that's a different story.

Thus the UK smoking ban in public places (I think it's actually defined as enclosed public places).

An outright ban on smoking, of course I'd be against.
 
Targeting TVs is a band-aid for the problem, because the actual problem isn't one of efficiency.
Well, all the Energy Commission is trying to achieve is to lower the statewide energy consumption of a device that runs in almost every home every day for many hours. If you see energy consumption as a whole as the problem, this plan will not solve it.
 
That wasn't what I was alluding to. I have no problem with energy consumption. I have a problem energy with production processes being ignored in favor of targeting energy consumption.
 
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That wasn't what I was alluding to. I have no problem with energy consumption. I have a problem energy production processes being ignored in favor of targeting energy consumption.
So what exactly do you propose that should be done instead of targeting the televisions?
 
Probably what Danoff alluded to and do some form of emissions cap if something had to be done.
Well, they seemingly do work on the production side as well, but I don't see why that should exclude the consumption side, given that there is energy to be saved as in this case.
 
Because if the energy creation side didn't cause pollution, there would be no real reason to limit the consumption side. I find clean energy to be far more important than energy consumption.
 
This law will not actively limit anyones personal choice of TV at the shops, since there will simply be no energy-guzzlers on offer.

That limits choice. More specifically, it limits the ability of free individuals to trade.

Wouldn't this be exactly the same as setting standards for pollution for the power companies?

Not in the slightest.

Thus the UK smoking ban in public places (I think it's actually defined as enclosed public places).

An outright ban on smoking, of course I'd be against.

I believe you also have a ban on smoking in private property (eg: bars, restaurants).
 
That limits choice. More specifically, it limits the ability of free individuals to trade.
But will anyone benefit from having a broader choice of televisions, given that the plan of the Commission will actually decrease the number of TVs on offer?
 
But will anyone benefit from having a broader choice of televisions, given that the plan of the Commission will actually decrease the number of TVs on offer?

Yes. Here's why.

1) Human rights would remain intact
2) If the TV is being offered and selling (ie: continues to be offered), it means there is a market for it. In otherwords, some people prefer it and think they benefit from the sale.
3) Consumer choice is good.

I'll give you an example of how this might work. Let's imagine for a moment that the projected reduction in pollution that this legislation would achieve is 1 unit of pollution. And let's imagine that it is 1 unit of pollution that we wish to save. If, instead of going after televisions, the government imposed a cap on pollution that required power companies to reduce their pollution by 1 unit, the end result would be higher electrical costs. The increase in cost is either used to help reduce consumption, improve processes, or, more likely, a combination of both designed to achieve an overall decrease in pollution of 1 unit.

The increased cost is then transferred to consumers. Some consumers may choose to spend more money. Others will choose to reduce their electrical consumption. If they choose to reduce their electrical consumption they'll likely do it in the least painful way to them. For some, this might mean buying a more efficient television. For others, this means adjusting their thermostat, replacing light bulbs with more efficient ones, installing an attic fan, insulating the house, or turning off lights or idle computers.

The idea is to send a signal to all consumers that saving electricity is a good thing. Of course part of that signal is currently being sent, but there is no better way to send it than directly. People respond to incentives. The more their electricity costs, the less they will use. At some point, this may require that they have enough solar panels to power everything on their own - but the cost/demand relationship will remain.

This is the most efficient way to reduce pollution. Go directly to the source and send the appropriate signal to consumers. Beating around the bush by restricting trade not only violates human rights, but it's also highly ineffective at conveying the intended message or achieving the desired effect. Furthermore, it increases legal compliance costs on companies that are completely unrelated to the creation of pollution. This artificially raises the price of their goods and hampers the economy. Beyond that, it discourages companies from entering the market - which results in a further reduction of choice and competition while raising prices.
 
You know what? I absolutely agree with you, what you described would be a better way to handle things. I'm just having a hard time believing that when energy prices were to rise in California due to tougher restrictions on emissions, the Californians would say:"Thank god for this, I'm happy they didn't install restrictions to make manufacturers produce better televisions and thus limit my right of free choice!". I think they'd rather say:"Oh it's them idiots again, making another vital component of my life more expensive!".
 
You know what? I absolutely agree with you, what you described would be a better way to handle things. I'm just having a hard time believing that when energy prices were to rise in California due to tougher restrictions on emissions, the Californians would say:"Thank god for this, I'm happy they didn't install restrictions to make manufacturers produce better televisions and thus limit my right of free choice!". I think they'd rather say:"Oh it's them idiots again, making another vital component of my life more expensive!".

Maybe they'd say "yay, less pollution". That's the idea anyway.
 
Maybe they'd say "yay, less pollution". That's the idea anyway.
It may be the German habit of complaining about everything, but I'm positive 98 out of 100 people would complain about raising energy prices instead of welcoming being less polluting for the greater good. People tend to see their personal (dis)advantages first.
 
You know what? I absolutely agree with you, what you described would be a better way to handle things. I'm just having a hard time believing that when energy prices were to rise in California due to tougher restrictions on emissions, the Californians would say:"Thank god for this, I'm happy they didn't install restrictions to make manufacturers produce better televisions and thus limit my right of free choice!". I think they'd rather say:"Oh it's them idiots again, making another vital component of my life more expensive!".

Though I agree with Danoff, this is a great rebuttal 👍 +invisirep
 
It may be the German habit of complaining about everything, but I'm positive 98 out of 100 people would complain about raising energy prices instead of welcoming being less polluting for the greater good. People tend to see their personal (dis)advantages first.

One has to wonder what the regulation is in place for then. If the population generally does not value a reduction in pollution - perhaps the legislation mandating pollution reduction is not warranted.
 
Thus the UK smoking ban in public places (I think it's actually defined as enclosed public places).
Unfortunately, government has taken to defining privately owned businesses as public.
 
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