Can you do a wheelie

You say your modifying the power of the car, not the physics engine. The particular cheat you used is 8x acceleration.

In my opinion, this 'cheat' is not changing the cars performance, but rather changing how the physics engine interprets that power. We know car performance is non-linear (thats is, you cannot perfectly emulate it with an algorithm), so to get exactly 8x acceleration at the car performance stage would be incredibly hit or miss. By simply multiply some constant by 8 in the underlying physics engine though, we can achieve that easily.

In that respect, an '8x acceleration' is changing the underlying engine.

That's my 2 pennies. :)
 
I think the car that is most capable of doing wheelie launch is subaru 360. With max ride height above 200, engine at the rear, lightweight, very funny behaviour at maximum spring rate. This car is THE CAR for wheelie launch :lol:.
 
daan
So you didn't even do it while driving? You mucked about with the replay? And you've now deleted your evidence? Why didn't you do when driving, so that you could have then saved the replay?

Can somebody please explain to this member how replays are saved, i've said it 4 times already and he still doesn't get it. Somebody who actually knows what they're talking about (possibly MasterStorm) would be preferable?! :rolleyes:

Btw, the only sensible reply i have recieved in this whole thread is from MasterStorm, he brings something of knowledge to all of this silly little drama, so before you all make up your own ideas about how a physics engine works, consult him.

@ MasterStorm: You are correct, it is modifying the power of the car, not engine power but an odd calibration from the driving wheels; it was simply a multiplier of acceleration. Although i understand what you mean about the actual physics engine being changed, as far as i could tell from the HEX code, the only address it linked to was differential and driving wheels. But perhaps i missed a link within the game between the diff and body physics?! I dunno... either way, without cheating it's not possible
 
I don't think an increase of power can make a car wheelie.
I do max speed test often, and an increase of power make the tire spin at R5 tire. Not even close to make it wheelie at launch.

To give an illustration,
this is the video of 750hp+ subaru 360 in GT2. Even with this much power, the car not wheelieing at launch, it spin the tire instead.

On the other hand, using very sticky tire (cheat), subaru 360 can do wheelie at launch. I set tire stickiness to about 2x supersoft tire.


I use GT2 as an example because I still can't find the tire traction code for GT4.


Relating this to 8x acceleration code, it is either:
- acceleration code change the physics entirely
or
- acceleration code alone can not make the car do a wheelie launch

I am waiting for the video too Der Meister, if it turn out that you can make car do wheelie launch using that 8x acceleration code, I will conclude that 8x acceleration change the physics to more unrealistic.

If you can't make video, I am ok with cockpit screen showing the sky with speedometer showing 30mph or something. Can we save car image with speedometer on USB? If we can't, use digital camera or webcam. I don't mind a really crappy picture if it can be used as proof.

Or if it's still not possible, maybe show it with car that will not wheelie at high speed. An RR perhaps.
 
I am quite sure that the physics engine is not modified while using AR MAX. I believe it's simply changing the data that the engine interprets. Can we not all come to the conclusion that, in the ordinary , untouched, tweaked, fiddled with, etc... version of the game, wheelieing from the starting line is not possible?
Clearly, the only way you can perform a wheelie from the starting line is with excessive manipulation of the games code. But don't get me wrong, you can generate excessive lift (leading to a wheelie at a high speed) if your setup promotes that.

Why make a mountain out of a molehill? Surely by now this has been done & dusted.

FormulaGT
 
Can somebody please explain to this moron how replays are saved, i've said it 4 times already and he still doesn't get it. Somebody who actually knows what they're talking about (possibly MasterStorm) would be preferable?! :rolleyes:
I would'nt make a habbit of calling other members here morons, especially when the'yre moderators. I could ask you if you've ever "had it away on your toes after acting like a herbert". I bet you don't have a clue what I mean, does that make you a moron. I know exactley what I mean, it's English language it's just not been put in a way you understand.
 
I am quite sure that the physics engine is not modified while using AR MAX. I believe it's simply changing the data that the engine interprets. Can we not all come to the conclusion that, in the ordinary , untouched, tweaked, fiddled with, etc... version of the game, wheelieing from the starting line is not possible?
Since an ARMAX code can even modify game flow code (skip video, etc), It can change the physics. If you change the GT4 gravity data, it can make the car float in the air, etc.
I don't know wether address 20352214 (8x acceleration PAL code address) represent data or game code though.

I almost agree that there is no car can do wheelie lunch. I still curious with some unique car. I don't think my curiousity will be answered before this thread close though.

It just that I have doubt about 8x acceleration code, I doubt car can do wheelie launch only using that code.
 
I am quite sure that the physics engine is not modified while using AR MAX. I believe it's simply changing the data that the engine interprets.
It 'could' represent car data, but as I said before, the physics for a car are non-linear. Putting this into example will probably make things clearer...

The 1886 cars have 1BHP and go around 10mph. The various Le Mans cars in GT4 have around 1100BHP, and go about 350mph when tuned right. The current world land speed record holding car Thrust SSC has 110000BHP, and is capable of 850mph. At the same time though, the Le Mans cars will accelerate to 100mph much faster than Thrust SSC does (because jet powered cars have a spool up time and a large inertia due to thier weight).

If we plot these on a graph, we see that there is no simple formulae that matches all the data, because things like aerodynamics and suspension and the weight of the car all play a part. We cannot simply multiply the horsepower by a factor of 8 and hope to achieve 8x acceleration, because the other factors will then come into play differently. Because of this, its very difficult to achieve exactly 8x acceleration at the cars data level, and certainly not possible to make a simple generic cheat that would work for all cars.

On the other hand, by changing a constant in the underlying formula by a factor of 8 (that is, multiply or divide by 8), then we can achieve this much more easily. This is because we dont need to know anything about how the game interprets/applies car data at this level, we simply just scale the output to achieve our result. Almost all physics engines contain some constant scaling values already, so targetting and modifying these is the easiest way to achieve our result.

Although that modification may be trivial (and possibly achievable by changing the car data instead, albeit with difficulty), in my opinion it is still a change to the underlying game engine.

Can somebody please explain to this person how replays are saved... Somebody who actually knows what they're talking about (possibly MasterStorm) would be preferable?! :rolleyes:
In regards to the saving of replays, rather than storing a series of images and sounds, Gran Turismo instead saves a timeline of button presses. When the replay is played back, it simply reads back these button presses and applies those to the car, rather than reading from the game pad.

This is like how a music box works, where pins along a sheet of paper cause notes to be played. The paper does not store any actual sound, only the pins which tell the music box what to do.

Because we only have the keypresses to go by, and not a series of images, then if the replay was recorded with cheats present (for example the 8x acceleration), then these must also be active when the replay is played back, otherwise the button presses in the original run and the replay will be interpretted differently, and will not look the same.

This would be like putting our sheet of music into a different music box, where it might play out of tune or maybe play faster/slower.

Because whe need to have all these cheats present, and because some of them require precise timing of application (the mega turbo cheat I think was mentioned), it makes it very difficult record the replay, because replicating the run is very difficult (due to the timing). It's not impossible, but I can imagine it would take a lot of time, which when your trying to record as well can be frustrating.

Another example, as opposed to the music box would be the MIDI file format, where only the notes and an instrument ID are stored, rather than any actual sound. The notes are reconstructed back into audio during playback, much in the same way GT replays are reconstructed from the keypresses. Like the GT replay files, this is the reason why MIDI files are so small. :)

Btw, the only sensible reply i have recieved in this whole thread is from MasterStorm, he brings something of knowledge to all of this silly little drama, so before you all make up your own ideas about how a physics engine works, consult him.
Thankyou.
 
MasterStorm
In regards to the saving of replays, rather than storing a series of images and sounds, Gran Turismo instead saves a timeline of button presses. When the replay is played back, it simply reads back these button presses and applies those to the car, rather than reading from the game pad...

...Because whe need to have all these cheats present, and because some of them require precise timing of application (the mega turbo cheat I think was mentioned), it makes it very difficult record the replay, because replicating the run is very difficult (due to the timing). It's not impossible, but I can imagine it would take a lot of time, which when your trying to record as well can be frustrating.

In addition to what MasterStorm has said here, when the R3 button is pressed in the game (with the cheat activated) it allows the cheat to work. However the button pressed (being R3) has no effect on a car in standard rules without codes. So therefore the replay reads that R3 was pressed, but there is no reaction (according to the game) so therefore it doesn't show a reaction. So that means that when you view the replay (if i gave you one), you would see nothing other than a car driving up the straight as normal.

FormulaGT
Why make a mountain out of a molehill? Surely by now this has been done & dusted.

I agree. I cannot prove this with any graphical evidence. I don't have an AR MAX, i have to go to my parents house to use my brothers disc (which is what i did), but is a big hassle considering they live 3hrs away! The only reason i was there was for a family bbq, so i don't intend on trying to acheive this "wheelie" again any time soon.

So considering that can we just leave it, i was trying to prove that it can be done with no rules applied. But i was unaware that people wanted only conformation on its plausablity under normal conditions.

MasterStorm
Thank you

Not needed. But no problem none the less.

**********************************************************

I should probably say this somewhere else, like perhaps make a new thread on this or something, but considering everything said was in this thread i'll say it here.

I appoligise to anyone i have insulted in here, i've had a difficult week involving my girlfriends parents, but i wont make excuses for my actions. I was out of place saying those things to all of you, and i am truely sorry to each and every one of those people & GTplanet overall.

Cheers, DM
 
I think it's quite funny that he's insulting daan because he thinks he doesn't know how the GT series stores replays...

That's daan...
 
Since an ARMAX code can even modify game flow code (skip video, etc), It can change the physics. If you change the GT4 gravity data, it can make the car float in the air, etc.
I don't know wether address 20352214 (8x acceleration PAL code address) represent data or game code though.

I almost agree that there is no car can do wheelie lunch. I still curious with some unique car. I don't think my curiousity will be answered before this thread close though.

It just that I have doubt about 8x acceleration code, I doubt car can do wheelie launch only using that code.

It 'could' represent car data, but as I said before, the physics for a car are non-linear. Putting this into example will probably make things clearer...

...:)


Thankyou.

Thankyou both for your informative posts:tup:. I'm not one with linear data or how data is influenced, but that did clear some things up!

*Sorry for the massive post-quote cut, MS! It would've taken up too much space though.

----------------X---------------------

Clear up any more remaining questions/queries, of course, but do we really need to elaborate further on this matter? This is seeming as though it will to turn into a flameing session:crazy:.

FormulaGT
 
Clear up any more remaining questions/queries, of course, but do we really need to elaborate further on this matter? This is seeming as though it will to turn into a flameing session:crazy:.

FormulaGT

You're right -- the question was answered in post #'s 2 and 3.

If Der Meister would have posted his findings without acting like a bigot, and simply said "hey guys, look what I managed to do with Action Replay codes!" then we would likely be finding ourselves in a perfectly friendly discussion about what is or is not possible with tweaking the game's physics engine via cheat devices.

Instead, well...you can see what has transpired.
 
Der Meister
Can somebody please explain to this member how replays are saved, i've said it 4 times already and he still doesn't get it. Somebody who actually knows what they're talking about (possibly MasterStorm) would be preferable?!
If you are positively trying to become disliked here, or even banned from the forums altogether, continue to talk to members like this. If you would prefer the effects to take place faster (and clearly you would, having done so), talk to a moderator like this. Particularly one who, as Famine points out, knows exactly what he's talking about.
You beat me to it again, mighty one

Wolfe's post #72 reflects my opinion, and I think any other sane person's opinion, so I'll not post here again.

DE
 
If you are positively trying to become disliked here, or even banned from the forums altogether, continue to talk to members like this. If you would prefer the effects to take place faster (and clearly you would, having done so), talk to a moderator like this. Particularly one who, as Famine points out, knows exactly what he's talking about.
You beat me to it again, mighty one

Wolfe's post #72 reflects my opinion, and I think any other sane person's opinion, so I'll not post here again.

DE

I refuse to repeat myself to any other member here anymore, it seems that nobody reads every post before replying. Perhaps anyone who hasn't read my previous last post in its entirety would like to scroll up and read it again?! 👍

daan makes GT4 videos, am I correct? I have already stated that I have no way of making a video, only a replay, and a replay cannot produce any evidence, as MasterStorm and myself have already stated.

I've admited that I was wrong, now can we just leave this?! As FormulaGT has said "this is turning into a flame section".

wolfe2x7
If Der Meister would have posted his findings without acting like a bigot, and simply said "hey guys, look what I managed to do with Action Replay codes!" then we would likely be finding ourselves in a perfectly friendly discussion about what is or is not possible with tweaking the game's physics engine via cheat devices.

Yes, well without us "bigots" non of you would look so good or have any sense of humour, so just be thankful for us instead of complaining. :sly:

DE
You beat me to it again, mighty one

:rolleyes:

What's all this Brown Nosing about? I think I'm starting to see why the forums take offence to homosexual statements!
 
Thankyou both for your informative posts:tup:. I'm not one with linear data or how data is influenced, but that did clear some things up!
No problem. The non-linearity issue is mainly when the output of some formulae affects itself, making it quite complex.

For example, if we calculate our acceleration in one split second from a standing start, then additonally we calculate that downforce increases, aerodynamics come into play and the engine gets hotter. Even though they may have barely changed, when we calculate the acceleration for the next split second, these factors will have some small effect on the result. Of course, there are more factors which change and affect the result too.

If we were to apply enough extra power in the first split second to accelerate twice as quickly, then all those additional factors would change by different ammounts, and so in the second split second, the ammount of extra power needed to maintain double acceleration would not be the same.

Because of this we cannot simply just scale the cars power to achieve a fixed acceleration boost. Instead the benefit would be variable depending on all those factors. The only way to get a fixed acceleration boost, would be to make some adjustment to the formulae that calculates acceleration.

If it helps, you can imagine this like a hot cup of coffee which you want to cool down precisely twice as fast as normal. If we try adding ice, then it will cool quickly at first, but eventually the ice melts, and we end up with a larger ammount (the molten ice adds to the volume of liquid) of still slightly warm coffee, which then cools normally. If we try putting the coffee in a refrigerator, then it will cool quickly, but will keep cooling past room temperature, which is not what we want. If we change to coffee beans to some magical quicker cooling ones, then the coffee tastes different. Eventually we realize the only answer if some very complex and advanced coffee cooling machine, or to change the laws of nature. :nervous:

*Sorry for the massive post-quote cut, MS! It would've taken up too much space though.
Not a problem at all. infact, this is why the quote tag has a back reference to the original post. :)

Clear up any more remaining questions/queries, of course, but do we really need to elaborate further on this matter? This is seeming as though it will to turn into a flameing session:crazy:.
I'm happy to at least try and answer any technical questions/queries, and I have been trying to keep this thread and discussion useful. If a flame war does break out, it might be an idea to salvage my posts into a new thread. 👍
 
MasterStorm
If a flame war does break out, it might be an idea to salvage my posts into a new thread.

No, that wont be necessary. From now on I refuse to post here. It seems my 'Lazy Grammar' is a hot topic for the Mod's, and even after I've appoligised and explained myself some people still feel the need to be jerks.
 
wow.......what an arguement,and got two memebers banned because of this (or i might be wrong,and i feel sorry for Der Meister and IH8GWB.....)and this threas is almost 10 moths old......well,if somebody happened to be viewing this thread,please tell me what happened to this thread.if this thread is dead or was moved to another thread (or it might just be pointless)if you do know what happened and know where the new thread is,please alert me and post the link here.greatly appreciated! :)

Muzaffar
 
wow.......what an arguement,and got two memebers banned because of this

No one got banned because of this thread. It didn't help their cause though.

and this threas is almost 10 moths old......
So why are you bringing it back?

well,if somebody happened to be viewing this thread,please tell me what happened to this thread.if this thread is dead or was moved to another thread
The discussion in this thread just stopped. It wasn't locked or moved elsewhere. Its all here.
 
Soooo ah ya, the new guy asks after reading through all this wonderful dialogue..... Has anyone every done a standing start wheelie w/o a cheat? I wasn't able to really figure that out...:dopey:
 
Soooo ah ya, the new guy asks after reading through all this wonderful dialogue..... Has anyone every done a standing start wheelie w/o a cheat? I wasn't able to really figure that out...:dopey:

No.
 
oic,well then....hope i could restart this post (but i hope it dont end up like last time)the starting wheelie looks kinda interesting....maybe i should give it a try (most likely it would be a failure since nobody could do this without cheat) wish myself luck and try to pull this off (or not) but who knows.....

And thx alot daan for the update....could have known nothing about this post....
 
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