Car handling --- Different online

[panjandrum]

iirc, the time difference on and off line was there since prologue.

Yeah, actually now that you mention it we did have the same problem with GT5P. Physics there were definitely different online.

I'm not sure all of us are understanding the basic issue here. It isn't that the tires are cold and then warm up and then the cars drive normally. That would be just fine. That is as it should be. It is that there is a significant handling difference *even when the tires are warmed up*. It seems to vary a lot from model to model. My Ferrari 512 changes some, but is at least recognizable as the same car. My Alpines (both models) on the other hand are the worst victims I've yet run across. Both of them are completely wrong. The difference in those isn't mild, it is extreme. They oversteer continually even at normal street-driving speeds. The Yellowbird on the other hand becomes a "snap-back king". I drive this car a lot and use the classic "mild tail out" turning technique 911s are famous for. This often requires slight counter-steering. Offline this is smooth and works great (unless you choose too soft a tire). Online even the most gentle counter-steering is likely to result in catastrophic snap-back. Again, this happens throughout the tire-wear sequence, so that pretty conclusively eliminates tire-wear/temperature as the only contributing factor. Something else is definitely going on here.

My initial reaction to the online damage is that it is great. I like the fact that it takes only a small accident to knock things out of whack. Feedback on the damage through the wheel feel convincing (wheel hop, pulling etc.) Visually it's pretty lame, but in terms of mechanical effects on the car? I like it so far.

 

[GripKing]

Its all up to cold tires which dont exist offline. End of story 👍

Are you sure there is no tyre wear in aspec i think your wrong i cant see them having no tyre wear in aspec else i would be able to do nurburgring 24 on the same set of tyres which is just stupid, some of the races in extreme seem to have tyre wear to me, but im not saying its a fact, can anyone comfirm there is no tyre wear in aspec?

 

[Keitaro333]

GripKing:
tire temperature and wear are 2 different things.
Temperature is definitely present in practice and a-spec (the color changes from dark blue to red (just floor a high powered car in 1st gear).
Tire wear is seen as the depletion of the bars that represent tires. In a-spec its present only in some of the endurance races (maybe extreme ones too, not sure) and i havent noticed it in practice.
Still wear shouldnt matter since i always test it in the first few corners of the nurburgring so my tires are new.

panjandrum:
i tried the Alpine 110 and it seemed the same to me. It was stock. Was yours tuned?
I noticed the difference in a tuned Merc 190E (330hp or so) and a 400hp NSX-R.

 

[GripKing]

Its all up to cold tires which dont exist offline. End of story 👍

so there is tyre wear and temperature rise and fall depending on how much wheels spin ect. i wish people would make silly staments

Thanks for confirming what i thought Keitaro333

 

[xchristox]

I don't understand why this topic is still alive. It's all down to the tire temperature, which is way more realistic online than in a-spec. Tires don't warm up in 1 or two corners like in a-spec, sometimes it takes a full lap to get them heated up perfectly.

And for everyone claiming the cars handle different BESIDES the tire temperature: it's bollocks. Cars handle exactly the same online or offline.

 

[GripKing]

its still alive cause we were trying to confirm what was going on online with respects to car handling and if you read the posts some people have done some good research which im very grateful for, doing +20 laps and still the cars don’t seem to drive the same. Keep up the good work lads! ,

 

[Keitaro333]

xchristox:
It could be that, yes. I have noticed that in practice the tires warm up faster than online and also seem to retain the heat better/longer than online.
But it does seem like too much of a difference sometimes. However realistic that is, i do think that the change is only in grip, not the physics itself.

 

[GripKing]

i get what you are saying chris and keitaro, but what i cant get my head around is even with my tyres warmed up afte 3 laps racing, minimal wheel spin ect good heat in them, it spins the wheels like i have less grip and snap oversteers like i have never experienced with that specific car, it is not to do with tyre temp im sure,well thats how it feels to me i may be wrong but you never know. just my 2 cents

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Are you absolutely sure about this? Do you have a screen-shot? Have you actually done this yourself? Does it make the cars handle properly online? Personally I don't see this as a spoiler and would like to discuss it, but I'll leave it up to you to decide if you want to remove the spoiler status.

I dont really understand what you're saying, yes I'm sure I learned how to read, yes I actually find out that some of my cars, my RE-FD for example dont handle the same online/offline. And here's a pictures of the credits :

Now I dont really know what is changing.

 

[andy63]

yes, i have noticed differences! i was running the Supra SuperGT car online and was like 5 tenths off! What? Same setup and everything. So you cant go as fast as offline.
Strange but true. Also it feels like the car handles worse online than offline.

xchristox: You are wrong. They dont. How do you explain that i am faster offline than online? Same amount of laps(maybe 10 laps) and during all these laps i am not even close my normal laptimes.
explain it please. I can run same laptimes all day(very cosistent) so thats not the problem that i am faster one day and slower next.

 

[klondike]

iirc, the time difference on and off line was there since prologue.

One reason Prologue was diferent online was it had a rubberband effect.

 

[panjandrum]

I dont really understand what you're saying, yes I'm sure I learned how to read, yes I actually find out that some of my cars, my RE-FD for example dont handle the same online/offline. And here's a pictures of the credits :

Now I dont really know what is changing.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that at completion there was an option to change the way online physics works.

 

[panjandrum]

i tried the Alpine 110 and it seemed the same to me. It was stock. Was yours tuned?
I noticed the difference in a tuned Merc 190E (330hp or so) and a 400hp NSX-R.

Thanks for being willing to take the time to check that. I see you use a FFB wheel also, so that's good.

All the cars I've mentioned so far are on stock suspensions (that's usually the way I like my cars). The Yellowbird is completely stock, except that I've tried it on a number of different tires. The Ferrari 512, the one which behaves in a most similar manner online and off is moderately tuned in terms of power and weight. The Alpines are also tuned to some extent. If I ever find another one in used cars I'll pick it up and try one completely un-tuned.

I also ran my fully-tuned Samba Bus, and it is pretty close to the same, but gets more understeery online and somewhat more likely to snap-back. There are just so many variables it makes my head hurt...

I also tried the "Game Stop" version of the McClaren F1 for a bit. It does get slightly more twitchy, and considerably more likely to begin rotating on-throttle and then be unwilling to come back, but overall it is recognizable as still being the same car (kinda like the 512 in this regard.)

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that at completion there was an option to change the way online physics works.

No worry all good

FR cars seems to handle differently online/offline, could be only an impression tho.

 

[Egghead43]

I was thinking of this thread today while I was trying to set a qualifying time for the Spec Miata Race.
I first tried Arcade mode, but I just couldn't get my car to handle like it was in the online practice room from the night before. I switched to GT Mode practice, but it still wasn't right. Finally I created an online event in my lounge and voila, handling was back to the way it was. 👍

There is definitely a difference, and yes I did multiple laps in each mode (10+). I was really struggling with understeer no matter how I tuned my car, but once I went to online mode I actually had to catch a few unintentional slides.

It's too bad really, as we have to qualify in practice mode so we can save our ghost replay, but I'm faster in online mode (in a Miata anyways ).

 

[panjandrum]

panjandrum:
i tried the Alpine 110 and it seemed the same to me. It was stock. Was yours tuned?.

I was able to purchase another Alpine 1600s and you are (mostly) correct. When completely stock the way it handles online and offline are much more similar than if you tune it up. However, it still isn't exactly the same. Also, it suffers from the "unable to maintain stability on a steady-state sweeper" problem, similar to the Yellowbird (see below), even when completely stock.

OK, I played with this a lot this weekend and have figured out the following things through extensive testing. Remember I am using a FFB wheel. If you are using a controller I have absolutely no idea if you will experience the same things.

1) The amount of difference between online and offline handling varies *tremendously* from model to model. For example, the RUF Yellowbird and both Alpines actually become undrivable in certain situations. For example, they are effectively unable to maintain their stability in a "steady state sweeper" like you'll find on Cape Ring. The RUF RGT and the Jaguar E Type Coupe, on the other hand, drive in a very similar manner online and offline. Not 100% the same, but not too bad. If I were to rate things on a scale of 1-10 (where 1=exactly the same and 10=unusable online), the RGT and E Type would be 2s or 3s and the Yellowbird and both Alpines would be 10s. (Note, the Yellowbird and the Alpine 1600s are, of course, my 2 absolute favorite cars and the ones I was most looking forward to racing, on stock suspensions, online.)

2) For cars which handle substantially different (worse) online, tuning them can exacerbate the problem.

3) The amount of difference in handling also appears to vary from track to track. So that (for example) my Alpine, which is completely undrivable on Trial Mountain, is at least nominally usable on Nurburgring (still completely off and terrible, but at least drivable).

4) You can "fix" at least some of these issues by adding LSDs and/or Racing Suspensions and diddling with them enough. You shouldn't have to do this of course; PD should be using one physics model both online and offline. For those of us (like myself) who like using stock suspensions it really sucks that in order to even use (for example) my Yellowbird online I have to completely modify the suspension settings.

Hope that helps clarify this issue a bit.

I've even made a couple illustrative videos I'll post if I ever find the time.

 

[RedSuinit]

My laptimes are pretty much exactly the same online and offline.

 

[Sail IC]

Running up to the Super GT event yesterday i learned quite a lot about the online physics. First I thought no way this could only be down to tire termperature and wear, but now I start to think that might be the only difference. And it makes a huge difference and its car dependent.

First I think off-line probably has maximum grip on each tire from the first corner or close to it. Online, temp/wear has a hugh impact and it works independantly on each tire. I did donats for a minute and the rear was completely out with front as new.

On my GT500 at Suzuka it takes until lap 3 until you have great grip. On lap 6 the grip is noticable less and wear limitations probably starts even earlier. My car is tuned to a slight oversteer (I like it that way) and when the tires a worn it has more oversteer than on cold tires. Probably because the rear are wearing faster than the front given my tune but gets up to temp quicker on cold tires.

On the opposite (I haven't tried), if you tune with a slight understeer, the front tires will probably heat up quicker and you might even get a slight oversteer after a while until the front wear off and the car will understeer badly.

If the car is tuned to be twitchy, it might be very fast offline with the massive grip you get there and be undrivable online on cold tires. My 458 Italia has a very aggressive tune and is very fast offline but undrivable online.

This makes tuning for a longer races with pitstops very interesting. The fastest one-lap car might not be the fastest race car. I view myself as a better tuner than driver, still have a lot to learn about tuning. I now find offline fairly boring and the only thing I want to do is to race my good Super GT friends and maybe some other online league.

 

[Phantom3D]

I drive alot in both practice and online. My times are usualy the same. (Mostly driving on the ring) So I don't think there is a difference at all. Well except the cold tires at the start of the race..

Would not worry to much guys..

 

[jjbk]

I do know when you go into a online room, your tune goes back to a default set so to speak, You have to go in and change it all back to your setup in offline. and when you leave the room you were just in for another, The tune goes back to standard again.

Not your modifications, just your tweaks, Suspension settings ect ect. you still have a stage 3 turbo if you fitted it. ( I hope you all understand what I am saying, I am tired)

 

[panjandrum]

I drive alot in both practice and online. My times are usualy the same. (Mostly driving on the ring) So I don't think there is a difference at all. Well except the cold tires at the start of the race..

Would not worry to much guys..

If you read through the entire thread, you will see a tremendous variation in the experiences people are having. It is good that you included that you are mostly driving Nurburgring. As I mentioned above, the amount of difference not only varies by car, but also appears to vary by track (I can't be absolutely sure about this last one yet, so it is still just at the theory stage). What would be very helpful is if people could let us know

1) what car(s) you have been using
2) basics of your tuning, if any (not the nitty-gritty of every setting, just stuff like have you lightened it? Chassis reinforcement? Etc.)
3) what controller you are using
4) track (as you have already done)

And why in the world do some many people here seem to think that their own experience somehow defines reality for everyone? It is great for you that whatever car/track/controller combination you have isn't giving you any problems, but your experience is definitely not universal.

And for all the "it's just tire temperature" guys the same applies. If you are driving a car/track/controller combination which works for you, that's great. In that case then yes, the difference in experience for you might be tire temperature related only. But again, this is not a universally shared experience. For example, in a completely stock RUF RGT, on Cape Ring, the car feels very squirmy in the first few corners. Then the tires heat up and the car feel similar (not 100%, but close) to the same car offline. However, I can drive the Yellowbird or either Alpine for lap after lap after lap and they remain utterly different than their offline renditions. Other people are reporting the same kind of problem with their setups (read the thread).

The only thing which has held true for me across all vehicles, tires, and tracks so far is that snap-back is dramatically increased in online mode. Again, I've tried this on only a tiny percentage of cars and tracks. I realize that this may not be the case for your setup, but on my end the snap-back is so bad that even on fairly hard tires the most gentle counter-steering is likely to end in disaster.

I was really hoping that I would find some kind of pattern with a specific upgrade part or tire, but I've been unable to do so.

 

[CCX]

I have to say, I agree. My SV seems to float about at the rear online.

 

[GrahamTurismo]

For everyone talking about how the online handling is worse and how you can't run as fast as you can offline and how the car "doesn't feel like I know it should" did you ever consider that maybe what you're used to is NOT right?

I'm glad Egghead posted in here because I am in the same boat as him... I too am working on qualifying for the Spec Miata race and I am also slower offline.

Has anyone even thought that maybe the offline handling is a bit more (dare I say?) arcadey? Perhaps how the car handles online IS the most realistic handling, and the offline handling is what's actually different. So what you may be "used to" in terms of how the car is supposed to handle is actually incorrect. We know that tire temp and wear is more realistic online, given that it takes some time to heat them up properly.

And yes, in Practice mode temperature DOES play a role, but they tend to warm up quicker than when online, and the tires do NOT wear down in Practice mode.

Lets also consider mechanical damage... isn't that ONLY available online? I think PD are striving to make the online experience the most realistic since that's where the replay value is, and lets face it; where the most realism is. When you are racing AI is not ever going to be as real as when you are racing real people.

So I believe that online is much closer to real world physics in the sense that the tire temp and wear are more real and the damage is more real, so the handling must also be more real.

Perhaps this boils down to something like A-Spec level. Remember all the talks about how damage was to get more severe as your level increases? Maybe handling realism increases as well... or maybe it doesn't and the 'campaign' experience will always be different. You have to understand that we are playing a game so perhaps the single player portion has a bit of a "physics assist" to allow unexperienced racers to enjoy the full game and get to race in all the races. So maybe they watered down the realism so that everyone could play and saved the hardcore physics for the online where everything is more realistic.

I'm merely using what I know based on what I have experienced so far in addition to what I have read here. I will say that I am at A-Spec level 20... but I have not done a single A-spec race yet. So I don't know how the handling is 'during the game.' So I am somewhat speculating on that aspect. But I do have all golds on every license and every special event I have done so far. Aside from those, the rest of my time with this game has been spent online and then a few hours in the last couple days in Practice mode.

 

[AGNT009]

Or maybe a guy named Kaz should just discuss this stuff with us in detail. Instead of everyone grasping at straws. Instead he lets us wander what the problem is, without telling us what they were thinking when they programmed something a certain way. I believe there is a difference off vs online. I took my nicely tuned McLaren Stealth online, and it had ridiculous understear, to where I was practically stopping to take turns. I was bouncing off every wall, then damage just killed it. Then getting hit by other drivers as Im turning it around destroyed it.

 

[filphil89]

Have you raced offline with your stealth where there was tire wear? If you drove online the same way you drive offline, surely you must have enough experience to know that the front tires wear faster than the rears if you drive at your top pace.

Online racing has the tire damage activated, which also included front and rear tires wearing at different rates. It's possible many people are overlooking this and mistaking simulated tire wear for a different physics system.

 

[Amin1992]

I tried using a Zonda R on Nurburgring online and i coudn't drive in a straight line with my usual driving style, had to drive really cautiously.

 

[rileyra]

i thought i was the only crazy one...there is definitely a difference whether it be tire wear or whatever cars feel different online vs offline. it may not feel so different for those of you with wheels, but for me an my ds3 it for damn sure does. if new driver need help that's fine, that's what aids are for. there's no reason to have different physics in one vs the other. we shouldn't need to tune differently for each mode. if the online is more realistic then so be it, it should be used for both so that what people come to learn through a-spec translates to online

 

[filphil89]

The thing is the tire wear IS present in GTLIFE. It's available after you reach level 22 where you race for an hour per race. From that I'm assuming it's also available for endurance races as well.

I don't think there is a difference between online and offline other than the tire wear being active as soon as you hop online. Differently worn tires means differently handling car at any given moment. Again these are only assumptions.

 

[ITSBLACKSTAR]

Seems like they just put GT5P professional physics online, which makes you unable to be the usual throttle happy person that you/I may or may not be in A-spec

 

[panjandrum]

For everyone talking about how the online handling is worse and how you can't run as fast as you can offline and how the car "doesn't feel like I know it should" did you ever consider that maybe what you're used to is NOT right?

Yes, I very seriously considered it but I had to discarded it. It may will be that neither of them are correct (although offline seems like a reasonably close facsimile to me. Slightly too easy, but I feel that way about pretty much all sims.) I'm basing this on real-life experience. I exclusively drive a variety RR cars in real life as my daily drivers (see avatar). I also use these same vehicles in autocross and ice-racing events. I also do endurance kart racing. I can honestly say that I'm very good at these activities. But there is another thread devoted to discussions of the physics by people with real life experience.) So trust me when I say that there is absolutely no possibility that the Alpines and the Yellowbird are handling online as they would in the real world. Now, again, this may only be with specific hardware configurations, and a number of other cars I've tried feel better. Maybe not perfect, but at least "OK".

The problem is that the symptoms are so randomly applied that for some cars I think both offline and online are very good. But for certain cars the online experience is so degraded that there is absolutely no question that something is terribly wrong.