Cars are built from 3d components

[Slurm]

SO I noticed in one of those videos with the developer speaking, that he says part of their making gt5 a strong backbone involves building cars from their components - "the bumper or bonnet are made individually to allow for future possibility of replacement of parts" to roughly quote him.

I find this extremely impressive and it hints at the possibility of a very detailed damage engine, and possibly having to replace bits of your car after a race where it gets banged up. It also opens the door to a more advanced "racing modifications" where splitters/bodykits could be bought.

And Spacemaniac quoted them saying something like "you build the tyre models first, then move onto the car" - 3d tyres anyone!? Sweet, That would be a great addition to the game, if simply by buying racing wheels and tyres you make your car look way beefier - instead of them just fitting into a little 2d template, getting shrunk down to whatever teeny size they were before, you'll have big, square shouldered slicks bulging out from under the bodywork. NICE!👍

 

[RedOak]

i came to the same conclusion.

 

[inferno]

Uh, the wheels are tires are already 3d. I already thought about the possibility of body kits, but also, with the hoods being separately modeled, i can imagine being able to raise the hood, say in your garage, and see the engine. Saaaweeeeet.

 

[Dave A]

That's actually old news, and it relates to the idea of being able to change body parts. Games that model cars piece by piece are nothing new, GT5 simply does it with better graphics than we've seen before.

I do not expect a fantasticlt realistic damage model, especially no on road cars because simply put, what you seen in Forza is is about the most the manufacturers will allow on road cars.

But Kaz mentioned that he wants to offer bodyparts, if not with the game at launch, then as downaloads.

 

[Mx²]

inferno, you raise a good point. now that we have modeled interiors, engine bays, we could open doors, open t-tops, put the top down and open the hood, it would make sense atleast.

 

[Aloha62_2]

it could in theory allow for user modified/created bumpers/spoilers. allow for a racing front bumper for each car that gives adjustable downforce?

 

[alexwrc]

Full 3D modelled parts is the only way to incluse a decent damage system imo, and that new tuning possibilities Kaz said. I don't mind the 1st reason really . If this is correct, GT will be ahead as always in new ideas came to the gaming.

Salu2.alexwrc

 

[Dave A]

The only time GT has been ahead in new ideas is GT1 and in a way GT4 with photomode in the sense it was new to the vast majority of people, but even then it wasn't a new idea. Adding damage and changable body parts is not a new idea. I expect GT5 to be leading, and to add new features to the GT series, but I doubt it will add anything actually new.

 

[alexwrc]

GT1 - The original, one of the most serious car games in that years. The "role play" style is still alive.

GT2 - The highest amount of cars, and new important circuits like Laguna Seca.

GT3 - Best graphics when released?

GT4 - The first one including photomode and The Ring.

I could describe more features what you already know, but the main one is always quality far of the rest of car games. If that 3D modelling is used as it must, GT could junp into another chapter depending on the complexity of this method and that possible damage system. All games have pre-done damages and that's not the solution. The 3D parts are only the solution for me, and that's a NEW idea then.

Salu2.alexwrc

 

[Earth]

The only time GT has been ahead in new ideas is GT1 and in a way GT4 with photomode in the sense it was new to the vast majority of people, but even then it wasn't a new idea. Adding damage and changable body parts is not a new idea. I expect GT5 to be leading, and to add new features to the GT series, but I doubt it will add anything actually new.

Who is ahead of GT in adding new features? I'm going to guess you think Forza is bringing new ideas and features to the table. The only feature I know exclusive to Forza is engine swaps. Paint shop etc have been in racing games before Forza was even thought of

As for adding nothing new, there is only so much you can add to a race car game. In the end it's about getting into a car and getting to the checkered flag faster than the other guy

Give GT credit. It bought sim racing to consoles. The ability to tune your car's parts. First game to have race and road cars. First to have large amounts of cars.

 

[Dave A]

GT1 - The original, one of the most serious car games in that years. The "role play" style is still alive.

GT2 - The highest amount of cars, and new important circuits like Laguna Seca.

GT3 - Best graphics when released?

GT4 - The first one including photomode and The Ring.

Don't confuse content, with new ideas. I'm not having a go at GT, I'm siomply correcting your statment "GT will be ahead as always in new ideas came to the gaming." which is incorrect,, since GT1 the GT series has not been anywhere when it comes to new ideas. The series is great, and has been a leader in the market, but not because of new ideas. GT1 introduced the idea of buying a road car and tuning it up right upto the point where it's a racing car. I'm not sure if any other games had done that before, but modding a car had been done. GT1 did it all on a grander scale. Other games feature the concept of buying a car, winning a race, earning credits, then buying another car or tuning your existing one. But GT1 did it to a greater degree. That is not creating a new feature, that is improving an existing feature, two very different things. The race mods were something I'd never seen before, and the game structure in GT1 was new as far as I'm aware.

GT2 added content, that's it, nothing new in terms of ideas beyond the rallying, but rallying in a computer game was not a new concept at the time. So all GT2 did was add content, it was a great game, don't mistake me for saying otherwise because I am not.

GT3 had great graphics, but great graphics is not really a new feature, that's to be expected when a new console comes out, better graphics. Great graphics are good, but they arn't really to do with the statment you made before.

GT4, added content, added the photomode, but it wasn't the first game to include such a feature. Sega GT 2000 gave users the chance to take photos of thier cars during replys even. And that wasn't the first game to feature a photomode. So even in terms of racing/driving games, GT4 as not the first to include such a feature. At the time, it did it best, but it wasn't being a leader of new ideas, it was just improving an existing one.

I could describe more features what you already know, but the main one is always quality far of the rest of car games. If that 3D modelling is used as it must, GT could junp into another chapter depending on the complexity of this method and that possible damage system. All games have pre-done damages and that's not the solution. The 3D parts are only the solution for me, and that's a NEW idea then.

Salu2.alexwrc

On the subject of damage, games for the most part do not have pre-set damage models these days. That's how damage used to be done. Games like Colin McRae DiRT (the best damamge model you'll find in a videogame to date) has seperately modelled parts that fall off and crumple and it uses poly deformation to good use. Colin McRae DiRT was not the first game to do this, the origian ToCA on the PS1 featured poly deformation rather than pre-set damage models. And talking of parts that are modelled as pieces, Destruction Derby Raw on the PS1 had that. The Need for Speed underground games had seperately modelled body parts, as do the Forza motorsport games. So how would GT5 having this, suddenly make it new.

I'm not talking about it being a good game, but it isn't innovative, it isn't leading when it comes to new ideas.

Who is ahead of GT in adding new features? I'm going to guess you think Forza is bringing new ideas and features to the table. The only feature I know exclusive to Forza is engine swaps. Paint shop etc have been in racing games before Forza was even thought of

Nope, I wasn't thinking Forza, though on the engine swaps alone, it's pretty much level with GT when it comes to introducing new ideas to gaming. The Need for Speed series probably leads when it comes to adding new ideas.

As for adding nothing new, there is only so much you can add to a race car game. In the end it's about getting into a car and getting to the checkered flag faster than the other guy

True, but that's besides the point of the argument. The comment I was respponding to was "GT will be ahead as always in new ideas came to the gaming"[b/] which is wrong, not matter how much you or I like the GT series, it's just wrong.

Give GT credit. It bought sim racing to consoles.

I do give GT credit, where it's due. I don't call GT the leader of innovation when it's clearly not. I'll say the GT series is a great series and has a lot of potential to keep going and being great, but I won't say it's good for being something it isn't.

The ability to tune your car's parts. First game to have race and road cars. First to have large amounts of cars.

It wasn't the first to allow you to tune your cars setup, or to upgrade your cars parts. Nor was it the first to have road and race cars in the same game. At the time, GT1 did have the most cars in it comared to any other game, that's all. It just reqorked and improved ideas that toher games already used. The GT series is a great series, but it rarely brings anything new to the table.

 

[Tornado]

Give GT credit. It bought sim racing to consoles.

Even if V-Rally and TOCA: Touring Cars hadn't come out a few months before the first Gran Turismo did, Road & Track Presents: The Need for Speed came out in 1994 for the 3DO and '96 for Playstation and Saturn.

All games have pre-done damages and that's not the solution. The 3D parts are only the solution for me, and that's a NEW idea then.

Jarrett and Labonte Stock Car Racing had both poly deformation and parts that separated and fell off the car. In 2000. I believe the recent TOCA games share this system.

 

[Wolfe]

Don't hold your breath for a detailed damage engine. It's just an easier way to apply individual aftermarket body parts (the alternative is to model an entire car for every possible combination of parts).

Even if V-Rally and TOCA: Touring Cars hadn't come out a few months before the first Gran Turismo did, Road & Track Presents: The Need for Speed came out in 1994 for the 3DO and '96 for Playstation and Saturn.

I would definitely agree that The Need for Speed was a simulation in its day. 👍

 

[DARCwizard]

Even if V-Rally and TOCA: Touring Cars hadn't come out a few months before the first Gran Turismo did, Road & Track Presents: The Need for Speed came out in 1994 for the 3DO and '96 for Playstation and Saturn.

Jarrett and Labonte Stock Car Racing had both poly deformation and parts that separated and fell off the car. In 2000. I believe the recent TOCA games share this system.

Don't hold your breath for a detailed damage engine. It's just an easier way to apply individual aftermarket body parts (the alternative is to model an entire car for every possible combination of parts).


I would definitely agree that The Need for Speed was a simulation in its day. 👍

+1:tup: I played the 3D0 version and that is one of my best racing game memories before gran turismo!! For its time, it was probably the best racing sim on a console....

 

[alexwrc]

Well Dave A, new ideas are just improvements for you. Then probably there aren't many new ideas because each one has a previous one.

Ideas or not, GT was ahead in car gaming with features on the top of the similar games of every generation. I can expect GT5 will be on the top again as always was, and we will be amazed with things - ultimate new things or improved things - like they weren't seen before, at least in that specific way.

For me, The Ring and photomore, the pillars of GT4, was new things never seen before and that makes the difference. Of course I was able to take screenshots in my PC games since long years ago, ar enjoy a dozen on tracks in the Mega Drive. I also played "car simulators" on 1983 PCs...

In other hand, the poly deformation never was enough. The 3D modellation is the first step to create a credible damage system rather flying bumps and bended fenders, wich are also 3D modelled and polydeformable. When I read 3D parts I wish more than these external things, but I won't bet for GT with this anyways. If GT can jump the limitation of pre-done or almost pre-done deformation, there will be something new, an improvement, or even a new improvement.

Finally, I think anything can't be on the top just improving other things. New ideas, new concepts must be added unless customers were stupid to buy non original stuff.

Salu2.alexwrc

 

[Earth]

V-Rally & TOCA. I played TOCA and then played GT and quickly forgot about it. So they don't really count in my personal book. Hehe. .I didn't say GT was the FIRST to bring sim racing to consoles. It opened up the door for them to be widely accepted as Final Fantasy 7 opened up the door for RPGs to be widely accepted.

As for need for speed, has that series ever truly been a sim? I have very faint memories of playing Road & Track NFS, as it was the very first Playstation 1 game I played (renta). Personally I don't believe NFS 1-4 was a sim anymore than the new fast and the furious games are a sim. NFS 1-4 were still fun games though

Live for Speed, what games allowed you to race a minivan vs a Toyota Supra race car before GT? How about adding tuner parts like a racing muffler and turbo intercooler?

If it weren't for GT you probably would never see sim racing games on console with the quality of Forza

 

[Dave A]

Well Dave A, new ideas are just improvements for you. Then probably there aren't many new ideas because each one has a previous one.

No a new idea isn't just an improvment to me, a new idea, is a new idea, a first for gaming, an innovation. An improvment is an old idea, improved upon, something GT generally does quite well in implementation.

Ideas or not, GT was ahead in car gaming with features on the top of the similar games of every generation. I can expect GT5 will be on the top again as always was, and we will be amazed with things - ultimate new things or improved things - like they weren't seen before, at least in that specific way.

I never sai GT wasn't or wouldn't continue to be ahead in terms of gaming.

For me, The Ring and photomore, the pillars of GT4, was new things never seen before and that makes the difference.

But ofcourse, GT4 wasn't the first game to feature The Ring, you just said "things never seen before", both The Ring, and a photomode had both been included in games before. A photomode of sorts was even in SEGA GT 2002 which came out long before GT4, and as I said earlier, that wasn't the first game to have a photomode and I'm not talking about pressing "prt scr" on your keyboard while playing a PC game.

I

n other hand, the poly deformation never was enough The 3D modellation is the first step to create a credible damage system rather flying bumps and bended fenders, wich are also 3D modelled and polydeformable.

Like I said, it's already been done, Colin McRae DiRT does it best, but you'll never see that level of damage on road cars in a game regardless of how good the damage model is. Codemasters have been suing the technique of modelling cars by parts and deforming the parts individually for years.

When I read 3D parts I wish more than these external things, but I won't bet for GT with this anyways. If GT can jump the limitation of pre-done or almost pre-done deformation, there will be something new, an improvement, or even a new improvement.

Maybe GT5 will have damage and will use Polydeformation better than anyone else when it comes to the race cars, but it's not new, it's not a new concept nor is the idea of doing it in conjunction with seperatly modelled parts.

Finally, I think anything can't be on the top just improving other things. New ideas, new concepts must be added unless customers were stupid to buy non original stuff.

Salu2.alexwrc

Hardly any games these days offer anything original, you buy a game based on your opinion of it being good or not, not on it being original or not.

V-Rally & TOCA. I played TOCA and then played GT and quickly forgot about it. So they don't really count in my personal book. Hehe. .I didn't say GT was the FIRST to bring sim racing to consoles. It opened up the door for them to be widely accepted as Final Fantasy 7 opened up the door for RPGs to be widely accepted.

The original Need For Speed was very much a sim in it's day, ofcourse, it falls very short of the mark today. Other sims would be games like Indycar Racing by Papyrus, and Microprose F1. There was quite a few sims back in the day, but they were only sim's when compared to what was around back in the day much like GT1 isn't a patch on games today physics wise.

Live for Speed, what games allowed you to race a minivan vs a Toyota Supra race car before GT? How about adding tuner parts like a racing muffler and turbo intercooler?

I don't know where this comment is aimed, but LFS is the most realistic sim available. If you want to know what a sim shpould feel like, that is the game to play. Most of the cars are fictional, but the physics engine is the best available.

If it weren't for GT you probably would never see sim racing games on console with the quality of Forza

True, and I doubt anyone would say otherwise, but it has little to do with GT being innovative in bringing new ideas to the table, it was just a great game.

 

[alexwrc]

No a new idea isn't just an improvment to me, a new idea, is a new idea, a first for gaming, an innovation. An improvment is an old idea, improved upon, something GT generally does quite well in implementation.

The difference between "improvement" and "new" seems to be very thin in this thread.

I never sai GT wasn't or wouldn't continue to be ahead in terms of gaming.

We can agree this

But ofcourse, GT4 wasn't the first game to feature The Ring, you just said "things never seen before", both The Ring, and a photomode had both been included in games before. A photomode of sorts was even in SEGA GT 2002 which came out long before GT4, and as I said earlier, that wasn't the first game to have a photomode and I'm not talking about pressing "prt scr" on your keyboard while playing a PC game.

I'd like to know what game was the first to fit the Nords, and I guess it's not very old accourding to the track lenght. I've been searching about the Sega photomode, and I haven't found anything more than the replay studio. I guess it has true photographic adjustments...

ILike I said, it's already been done, Colin McRae DiRT does it best, but you'll never see that level of damage on road cars in a game regardless of how good the damage model is. Codemasters have been suing the technique of modelling cars by parts and deforming the parts individually for years.

Maybe GT5 will have damage and will use Polydeformation better than anyone else when it comes to the race cars, but it's not new, it's not a new concept nor is the idea of doing it in conjunction with seperatly modelled parts.

GT must jump into another chapter now as I said, or it will have a standard system, and that starts with 3D modellation as Colin have. The key is the damage system based on 3D, not games wich have being using it. That new engine must be that, new; even knowing cars are breaking since years ago in a ridiculous way (action wich evidently only can be "improved", because no one will "invent" what cars crashes)

Hardly any games these days offer anything original, you buy a game based on your opinion of it being good or not, not on it being original or not.

Yeah, and our opinion is based on what games offer, and evidently GT1 is not GT4 because there are much more than improvements.

Salu2.alexwrc

 

[Tornado]

As for need for speed, has that series ever truly been a sim? I have very faint memories of playing Road & Track NFS, as it was the very first Playstation 1 game I played (renta),

The first NFS game was very much a sim game (as was Porsche Unleashed). Maybe it falls short of a perfect simulation today, but GT came out 3 years afterwards and it wasn't any more sim-like than The Need For Speed was.

GT was ahead in car gaming with features on the top of the similar games of every generation.

Nonsense. GT merely made such features more popular and widespread. But they had been done before, and some games had/have more features than the GT games of the same generation do.

I'd like to know what game was the first to fit the Nords, and I guess it's not very old accourding to the track lenght.

It may not have been the first game to feature it, but GPL had the original longer 14 mile course.

 

[Wolfe]

I don't know where this comment is aimed, but LFS is the most realistic sim available. If you want to know what a sim shpould feel like, that is the game to play. Most of the cars are fictional, but the physics engine is the best available.

I think he was referring to you by your former name, but with a "for" instead of "4."

Live for Speed, what games allowed you to race a minivan vs a Toyota Supra race car before GT? How about adding tuner parts like a racing muffler and turbo intercooler?

Which Gran Turismo was the first to include a minivan? I can't even recall seeing one in GT4, much less one of the first games.

Upgradable cars have been around since at least the days of 16-bit 2D parallax racing games (eg. Top Gear 2 on SNES, in 1993). Again, as Dave A is saying, the idea isn't new, it's just been utilized in a better way than ever before.

I'd like to know what game was the first to fit the Nords, and I guess it's not very old accourding to the track lenght.

As Toronado said, it's Grand Prix Legends. I don't think there's any earlier game.

 

[Tornado]

Which Gran Turismo was the first to include a minivan? I can't even recall seeing one in GT4, much less one of the first games.

The first one would be GT4 (no, the F1 car with a box on top of it from GT2 does not count as a minivan.), I believe.
Which means Tokyo XTreme Racer Zero (and probably TXR2 as well, but I'm too lazy to check) beat it there as well.

 

[amar212]

In terms of "Groundbraking", there are many console racing games that did some things first. GT is also one of them. However, some details are spreading thoughout genre for 2 decades and there is probaably never be a single game that will unite all of those into one single experience. For example:

Test Drive (Atari, 1987)
- cockpit-view

Formula 1 '97 (PSone, 1997)
- in-cokpit view with view getting dirty - had a button assigned to change the "protective vinyl"

Ferrari F355 Challenge (arcade, Dreamcast and PS2, 1997):
- force feedback wheel (on arcade and later PS2)
- H-shifting (on arcade)
- most advanced simulation at a time
- cockpit view
- multi-screen set-up
- 8 opponents
- 6 cabinets LAN play (on arcade)
- animated pit-crew
- 8 changes of time of the day for every track - "Magic Wather" system
- post-race results and set-up printing (arcade had a built-in printer to do that)

LeMans 24 Hours (PSone, 1998)
- full 24 hours LeMans race with day-night time change and 12 opponent cars (if I remember well - an it was running on freaking PSone)

F1 Racing Championship (1999, PS2)
- in-helmet view (it was stunning to race this game, best console F1 racer ever IMHO)

Metropolis Street Racing (Dreamcast, 2000)
- real-time day-night change depending of your local time of the day

Sega GT2002 (Xbox, 2001)
- photo-mode
- animated partial-3D garage

Project Gotham Racing 2 (Xbox, 2003)
- full 3D garages

Mercedes-Benz World Racing (Xbox, PC, 2003)
- free roam open-space enviroment in full

TOCA Race Driver 3 (PS2 Xbox PSP PC..., 2005)
- in-cockpit sound
- in-cockpit view-field
- most advanced damage system ever on consoles
- sandtraps actually stops you in full
- licenced tracks count and world-variation is just incredible

...and it goes on and on... Until GT6 .

 

[Wolfe]

Ferrari F355 Challenge (arcade, Dreamcast and PS2, 1997):
- force feedback wheel (on arcade and later PS2)

The arcade version of Out Run (1986) had that.

- H-shifting (on arcade)

The arcade version of Hard Drivin' (1988) had that. With a working clutch and a starter that you had to use if you killed the engine.

- most advanced simulation at a time

That's not a groundbreaking new feature.

- cockpit view

You just said Test Drive did it first.

- 8 opponents

There were earlier games with many more.

- 6 cabinets LAN play (on arcade)

Daytona USA came out three years earlier and could do 8 cabinets. I'm sure there are other, even older multi-cabinet-capable games out there.

- animated pit-crew

I'm sure it wasn't the first.

Sega GT2002 (Xbox, 2001)
- animated partial-3D garage

Project Gotham Racing 2 (Xbox, 2003)
- full 3D garages

Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed (PC, PSX, 2000) had a 3D garage that allowed you to open the doors, trunk, and hood, as well as zoom in and look at the 3D interior from the inside. PGR2 doesn't even let you do that.

Mercedes-Benz World Racing (Xbox, PC, 2003)
- free roam open-space enviroment in full

Only because they didn't bother putting invisible walls everywhere. Viper Racing (PC, 1998) and the San Francisco Rush series (arcade, N64, 1996) did the exact same thing.

TOCA Race Driver 3 (PS2 Xbox PSP PC..., 2005)
- in-cockpit sound

You mean different sounds depending on the view? I don't know which game did that first, but I know for a fact that NFSU did.

- most advanced damage system ever on consoles
- licenced tracks count and world-variation is just incredible

Those aren't new or groundbreaking. That's just doing things better than ever before.

Does anyone know of any games that did these things even earlier than in the games I pointed out?

 

[Kamus]

Only because they didn't bother putting invisible walls everywhere. Viper Racing (PC, 1998) and the San Francisco Rush series (arcade, N64, 1996) did the exact same thing.

Viper racing actually had another really nice atribute. Their damage model.
The damage model on this game was pretty good, and it didn't seem to be based on precalculated damage. (like forza for example.) But instead seemed to be computed in real time. (correct me if i'm wrong here, if anyone knows.)

So, this was very good, not only did your car take a beating from crashing into other cars or trees, etc. but it would also take damage from landing after going airborne too high, this was the first time i'd seen it done so well.
Your car would break down if you didn't slow down before a ramp that could potentially damage it after you landed.
Richard burns rally has this too, but of course this is a much more advanced simulator.
in the GT series it's very dissapointing just how reckless you can be with your driving with out any penalties, you shouldn't be able to take flight at insane speeds and have nothing happen when you land.
So, we need damage that is not precalculated. But physics that are computed in real time. Not just a collection of advanced and complex physics to simulate vehicle behaviour, that actually takes longer to program,
and the results are going to be limited since those formulas are for very specific car behaviours.
So in a nutshell, the future of sims is going to rely on pretty much overwhelming the CPU's so they can generate the physics for themselves, instead of relying on hand tuned phyisics formulas.

I think Viper Racing holds a place as far as inovations go in that regard.

 

[Tornado]

Does anyone know of any games that did these things even earlier than in the games I pointed out?

I know a couple.

There were earlier games with many more.

Daytona USA had 40, for example. Virtua Racing had 16.

I'm sure it wasn't the first.

Virtua Racing had it.

You mean different sounds depending on the view? I don't know which game did that first, but I know for a fact that NFSU did.

Sports Car GT did it as well.

The damage model on this game was pretty good, and it didn't seem to be based on precalculated damage. (like forza for example.) But instead seemed to be computed in real time. (correct me if i'm wrong here, if anyone knows.)

You are correct.

 

[Earth]

OK, give me the console games that had these features of GT1 before GT1 was released

- Car Wash
- Used Cars
- Racing modification for road cars
- Arcade & simulation modes
- License tests
- Multiple championships with wide variety of cars
- Ability to buy cars
- Ability to sell cars
- Real Names for the car colors
- Detailed stats sheet for each car, type of suspension, engine size etc
- physics modeled for FR FF and MR cars
- (multiple) endurance events
- draft / splistream
- music that didn't suck
- tire wear
- photo realistic graphics (for the time)
- 20+ different cars. GT1 had around ?150?
- realistic tuner parts with real names with realistic effects. Top speed is not A+ from A- but you only see your HP increase realsticly
- weight reduction for cars
there is a miniman in GT4. And I'm sure somebody is going to remember some craptacular 16bit game that had a feature similiar to something I posted. as i just remembered Days of Thunder on the SNES had tire wear and fuel use.omg..it beat GT

 

[Tornado]

- Car Wash

Ah yes. A poorly done feature that had no effect on anything until GT3, with cars getting dirty in such a subtle way that had the car wash menu not been there no one would have noticed.

- Racing modification for road cars

If you mean ability to add and adjust downforce of cars, that had been done before as well.

- Arcade & simulation modes

Sim mode in GT parallels a career mode in every other racing game. And Arcade mode parallels a single race mode. Calling it by a different name does not make it a new feature. And regardless of which, Need For Speed II had options entitled "Arcade" and "Simulation" which modified how the physics engine was in race.

- License tests

Which equals the tutorial that some other racing/driving games used already.

- Multiple championships with wide variety of cars
- Ability to buy cars
- Ability to sell cars

Rage Racer. Road Rash.

- Real Names for the car colors

A potentially game-ruining experience that was avoided.

- Detailed stats sheet for each car, type of suspension, engine size etc

Road and Track Presents: The Need For Speed.

- physics modeled for FR FF and MR cars

Road and Track Presents: The Need For Speed.

- draft / splistream

Ayrton Senna's Super Monaco Grand Prix 2.

- music that didn't suck

Completely subjective garbage and you know it.

- tire wear

Ayrton Senna's Super Monaco Grand Prix 2.

- photo realistic graphics (for the time)

The "for the time" clause totally invalidates any point you might have had. I can easily turn around and say Virtua Racing had "photo realistic graphics for the time" and it would mean about as much. I also fail to see how graphical prowess is an innovation.

- 20+ different cars. GT1 had around ?150?

Ah, yes. Because quantity of anything is innovation.

- weight reduction for cars

Super Hang-On.

there is a miniman in GT4.

Which obviously makes the fact that there was one in Tokyo XTreme Racer Zero (which came out in 2001) irrelevant, yes?

I'll let others tackle the ones I didn't cover.

 

[amar212]

....

If I were a mod, I'd ban you forever

Thanks for pointing out those, here in Europe we obviusely didn't have such an early start. Even worse in my country, but then - what the hell. Thanks for pointing out hose though 👍

 

[Venturetto]

F1 Racing Championship (1999, PS2)
- in-helmet view (it was stunning to race this game, best console F1 racer ever IMHO)

OMG! Totally agree with that! 👍

 

[Slurm]

Jeez. You guys + semantics = ZZZzzz

Someone says GT is leading with new features and it sparks a two page debate. LOL