Comet Elenin

[Dotini]

If the jets come from charge differences, wouldn't they point toward the Sun?

The few comets we've seen up close are rotating or tumbling. I'd guess the discharges - if any - would come from ridges, peaks, faults or such. The ionized tail - the plasma tail - always points away from the Sun. I realize this doesn't answer everything. I'm trying - but I'm just another layman with more questions than answers. Help me.

Respectfully submitted, open to correction,
Dotini

 

[BobK]

In partial response to Foolkiller's questions, I found this:
Hartley 2 is not a ‘snowball’ nor are any other comets. Comets are no different from a rocky asteroid, in fact all comets are simply asteroids with a cometary orbital path. (that’s why they all look like asteroids in all the comet photos !)
The reason for the ‘bright jets’ is due to an electric field charge potential difference between far away in the solar system, and close to the Sun. As the comet gets closer to the Sun the more positive electric field charge near the Sun causes the comet to electrically discharge its negative charge that the comet has stored up due to its capacitance ability to hold electrons. The far edges of the solar system and beyond are negatively charged compared to the positive charge near the Sun. This is why the ‘jets’ come from the ‘high spot’s on its surface, the electric charge that is trying to ‘equalize’ with its surroundings will come off of sharp points, like a van de Graff generator will do with a thumb tack on it.
The Sun is NOT ‘heating’ (sublimating) the comet.
The reason OH radicals are found in close proximity to the comet (and mistaken for water) is because any single Oxygen that is driven off is combining with Hydrogen protons from the solar wind and making OH radicals.
http://www.universetoday.com/77426/first-close-images-of-hartley-2-its-a-peanut-with-jets/
http://www.plasma-universe.com/99.999%_plasma

Upon checking the cited articles, it turns out that the quote above does not come from the article itself, but rather from a comment somebody posted.

I've said you've been disingenuous in the past, seems to me this is leading into outright dishonesty.

 

[Dotini]

Upon checking the cited articles, it turns out that the quote above does not come from the article itself, but rather from a comment somebody posted.

I've said you've been disingenuous in the past, seems to me this is leading into outright dishonesty.

Sorry about that, BobK. I've clarified the citation link-line in the post. I'm searching for the truth, believe it or not, and sometimes primary authority is only the beginning. Do I have your approval to continue posting on this subject, or not?

Respectfully requested,
Dotini

 

[wfooshee]

I just have this to say: The is no "Electric Universe." Objects do not respond to each other simply by charge, or exchange of plasma, nor is the Universe made up of nothing but ions.

Comets are "dirty snowballs," as cited several times in the thread from respected sources. The jets are volatile materials erupting from the comet under pressure after being heated (not charged, not ionized, not otherwise "zapped," but heated) by approach to the sun.

That does not say that this material is not then affected by exposure to the solar wind and the charged particles it contains.

Dotini, your efforts and reducing cause and effect to completely unrelated phenomena is simply . . . wrong.

A comet's tail may contain ionozed plasma. The comet never erupted any plasma, though, it erupted voltile material that had been mixed in with the rocky dust of its nucleus, and that material, which has been repeatedly identified spectroscopically, on exposure to the solar wind, would be affected and altered.

You can't just look at the result (there's plasma around that comet) and jump to an unsupported conclusion (the comet was charged all along) by simply skipping the actual observed effect (volatiles are boiling off from the nucleus) and seeking an alternative observation (charges interact and the comet spews plasma) that just isn't there.

 

[Dotini]

I just have this to say: The is no "Electric Universe." Objects do not respond to each other simply by charge, or exchange of plasma, nor is the Universe made up of nothing but ions.

Comets are "dirty snowballs," as cited several times in the thread from respected sources. The jets are volatile materials erupting from the comet under pressure after being heated (not charged, not ionized, not otherwise "zapped," but heated) by approach to the sun.

That does not say that this material is not then affected by exposure to the solar wind and the charged particles it contains.

Dotini, your efforts and reducing cause and effect to completely unrelated phenomena is simply . . . wrong.

A comet's tail may contain ionozed plasma. The comet never erupted any plasma, though, it erupted voltile material that had been mixed in with the rocky dust of its nucleus, and that material, which has been repeatedly identified spectroscopically, on exposure to the solar wind, would be affected and altered.

You can't just look at the result (there's plasma around that comet) and jump to an unsupported conclusion (the comet was charged all along) by simply skipping the actual observed effect (volatiles are boiling off from the nucleus) and seeking an alternative observation (charges interact and the comet spews plasma) that just isn't there.

Good comments, wfooshee.
However, comets have been observed to exhibit tails, coma and energetic displays when far out into the solar system, where there is little or no heating from the Sun, only its electric field.

Back in 1991, Comet Halley, moving between the orbit of Saturn and Uranus inexplicably flared up. At that distance solar heat does not sublimate ices. There is something wrong with the simple solar heating model. Violent jets were seen erupting from Halley in 1985 and from Borrelly in 2001 that were far more energetic than could be explained by sublimation of ice in the heat of the Sun. Close up views showed that it is not the full sunward faces of cometary nuclei but well-focused discharge jets, some on the dark side, that produce the spectacular tails of comets.

As always, I make no claim to knowing the truth. I've cited dozens of sources - mostly NASA scientists - stating that there is mystery in the comet phenomenon deserving our continued study (and expense).

I would be delighted to see you and others posting your explanations for the puzzles cited by NASA and other professional investigators.

I believe in an interdisciplinary approach to anomalous phenomena. Do you?

Respectfully,
Dotini

 

[Jawsers]

However, comets have been observed to exhibit tails, coma and energetic displays when far out into the solar system, where there is little or no heating from the Sun, only its electric field.

I'm curious where you get this idea of an "electric field" from. Are you possibly just using the wrong description? Are you speaking about one of the four forces, electromagnetism?

The sun's radiation has more much interaction with a comet than the heat itself. The solar wind is strong enough far out into the solar system that many moons of Jupiter and Saturn have been long ago been stripped of whatever gases their atmospheres may have contained.

 

[Dotini]

I'm curious where you get this idea of an "electric field" from. Are you possibly just using the wrong description? Are you speaking about one of the four forces, electromagnetism?

The sun's radiation has more much interaction with a comet than the heat itself. The solar wind is strong enough far out into the solar system that many moons of Jupiter and Saturn have been long ago been stripped of whatever gases their atmospheres may have contained.

Jawsers, yes, it's entirely possible I'm using wrong descriptions, since I'm not a physicist or EE, and also lack perfect knowledge of Maxwell's equations. Our best understanding of electromagnetism derives from Maxwell's equations. Here, I'm using the term electric field and electromagnetism interchangeably - quite possibly inadvisedly. If so, I apologize, beg forgiveness, and thank you for the correction. I don't think you can have magnetism without electricity, i.e., positive and negative charges. A charged object will create a magnetic field when it is spun. So to my simple way of thinking, it all starts with charge. But by all means chip in and help me here, since our only two known trained scientists, Famine and TM, are currently keeping their peace, and I'm not in their league - let alone Ben Franklin, James Clerk Maxwell, Kristian Birkeland, Irving Langmuir, Hannes Alfven, Freddy Hoyle and Anthony Peratt, my other science heroes.

I too am interested in the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. I'd be very happy to expand the subject matter treated in this thread to include them, since I see evidence of electrical - electromagnetic - transactions between them and their planets.

Abstract. The Cassini Plasma Spectrometer has reported dramatic perturbations of
the magnetospheric plasma flow in a region extending at least 30 satellite radii away from
Saturn’s small but active icy satellite Enceladus. We interpret these observations here
by means of a steady-state model of the electrodynamic coupling between Enceladus and
Saturn. Neutral water molecules from Enceladus are ionized, predominantly by charge
exchange with ambient ions, to produce a pickup current that accelerates them to the
local plasma velocity. The consequent addition of angular momentum requires Birkeland
(magnetic-field-aligned) currents that couple the newly injected plasma to distant parts
of the flux tube and ultimately to Saturn’s ionosphere. The rate of local ionization in
our model varies with the inverse square of distance from the satellite and is scaled by
a free parameter proportional to the ratio of the total mass-loading rate to Saturn’s ionospheric
Pedersen conductance. To explain the observed velocity perturbations we require
a total mass-loading rate 100 kg/s if the conductance is & 0.1 S as expected. If the
mass-loading region is not strongly coupled to Saturn’s ionosphere, then the appropriate
conductance is the Alfv´en “wing” conductance ~2 S, requiring more than an order
of magnitude more mass loading. In either case, Enceladus is clearly implicated as
a significant, if not dominant, source of Saturn’s magnetospheric plasma.
http://faculty.bsc.edu/dpontius/Files/2006JA01167_preprint.pdf


Grateful for all the help I can get,
Dotini

 

[Dotini]

http://www.universetoday.com/81576/asteroid-sheila-sprouts-a-tail-and-coma/

Here is the curious case of an asteroid that became a comet. It's called 596 Scheila, is 3.1 AU from sol orbiting in the asteroid belt, at least 115km along its major axis, and has suddenly sprouted a funny looking tail.

Note also this curious storm on Saturn. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sZELqp6HIAw/TVo_AbzQ_3I/AAAAAAAAADI/zSz7fu7-d0Q/s1600/saturn_storm..jpg

With respect to Comet Elenin, you can use the interactive controls of this JPL browser to see the position of the comet within the solar system along its timeline. http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=2010x1&orb=1

Type and enter "elenin" into the lower search box of this JPL browser, and you will get up-to-the-minute orbital data of the comet. http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi
New observations are taken on a frequent basis. Now the period is indicated at 4m yrs.

Sunspots are a proxy for solar activity. During periods of increased solar activity, the heliosphere is strengthened and cosmic ray flux reduced. Here is an interesting chart of solar activity which indicates a recent increase. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sunspots_11000_years.svg

Photo of very recent auroral activity on Earth:http://www.spaceweather.com/submiss...=Chad-Blakley-turiststationbig_1299279178.jpg
During the Carrington Event of 1859, blood-red auroras were seen even in equatorial regions such as the Caribbean.

note: I've just finished an excellent book published by Princeton University Press called The Sun Kings: the unexpected tragedy of Richard Carrington and the tale of how modern astronomy began. Highly recommended story of 19th Century British astronomers and their discoveries.

Edit: Here is the blog of the comet's discoverer. He notes that the comet may briefly exceed magnitude 0, i.e., generally visible even from large cities. http://spaceobs.org/en/tag/c2010-x1-elenin/

Currently, as of March 7, Elenin is traversing the densest part of the Asteroid Belt. No known objects of any size are thought to be in its path.

Edit: Ulysses probe flies through Comet McNaught's ion tail with interesting results:
http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/667/2/1262/fulltext
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C/2006_P1#cite_note-13
http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibrary/1999/12/13/ast13dec99_1_resources/Solarwind.mov
http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/hires/theshockings.jpg


The Ulysses spacecraft made an unexpected pass through the tail of the comet on February 3, 2007.[13] Evidence of the encounter was published on the October 1, 2007 issue of the Astrophysical Journal.[14] Ulysses flew through McNaught's ion tail 160 million miles from the comet's core and instrument readings showed that there was "complex chemistry" in the region.

The Solar Wind Ion Composition Spectrometer (SWICS) aboard Ulysses measured the composition speed of the comet tail and solar wind, and detected unexpected ions within the comet's tail and found that it had a major impact on the surrounding solar wind. It's the first time that researchers have detected O3+ oxygen ions (atoms of oxygen with a positive charge because they have five electrons instead of eight) near a comet. This suggested that the solar wind ions, originally missing most of their electrons, picked up some of their missing electrons as they passed through McNaught's atmosphere.

Besides that, SWICS found that even at 160 million miles from the comet's nucleus, the tail had slowed the solar wind to half its normal speed. The solar wind should usually be about 435 miles (700 km) per second at that distance from the Sun, but inside the comet's ion tail, it was less than 250 miles (400 km) per second.

"This was very surprising to me. Way past the orbit of Mars, the solar wind felt the disturbance of this little comet. It will be a serious challenge for us theoreticians and computer modelers to figure out the physics,"

It will be seen from the manipulation of the JPL browsers above that Elenin will be directly between the Sun and Earth on September 27th. Whatever ion tail Elenin possesses will then be pointed directly at Earth at a distance of 0.381 au. As can be seen from the data on McNaught, there is potential for an ion tail to disturb the cosmic wind and alter the chemistry of space for 1.6 au. distance from the nucleus. Later, starting October 17th, the Earth will begin passing through the dust tail. Various predictions are possible as to what would occur should Earth pass through these tails. Stronger auroras at lower latitudes are a strong possibility. The light of the Sun might be scattered by the coma and the dust tail of the comet, making the Sun look diffused and the sky darker. It is possible in these conditions that the new Moon could be visible, as a black Moon. The dust tail may create significant meteor showers. The meteor showers would peak around November 3rd , when Earth crosses the path of Elenin.

However, it is best to remember that the odds are it will be a dud like Kahoutek.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[Dotini]

Discoverer Leonid Elenin has made new observations of his comet, and determined the coma has grown to 80,000 km, this together with a close encounter with a substantial body in the asteroid belt. http://spaceobs.org/en/tag/comet-elenin/

Previous observations put the nucleus at 2-4 km, and the tail at 900,000 km.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[BobK]

Must be plasma, huh?

 

[Dotini]

Must be plasma, huh?

Hi Bob, thanks for your post!

If you're referring to the 900,000km ion tail, well, sure, by definition that would be plasma. Astrophysicists and ordinary comet watchers like us are all keenly looking for the answer to the question of just how highly charged the nucleus might be, since this might well determine whether Elenin can be a "Great Comet" or not. If we were optimistic, we might hope for it, since Elenin appears to have been orbiting for several millions of years off in interstellar space prior to its recent arrival. However, since current estimates by JPL, Elenin himself and other observers all put the ultimate magnitude at rather low values, we must be modest in our expectations.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[Dotini]

http://spaceobs.org/en/2011/05/02/comet-elenin-may-be-brighter-than-expected/

Observers are cautiously optimistic that Elenin may be brighter than expected, possibly greater than magnitude 0 and visible to the naked eye through November.

 

[PeterJB]

Anyone else find that uncomfortably close?

 

[DK]

Note that its scientific name contains the characters X1...

 

[wfooshee]

Anyone else find that uncomfortably close?

Nope.

.242AU is over 20 million miles. Venus gets nearly that close to Earth.

 

[terminator363]

Ahh! It's Comet Lenin!

 

[Grayfox]

You should worry more about Apophis meteor hitting us than this comet.

 

[PeterJB]

Just add one month to it's orbital period and it could have been heading straight for us. Realistically 20 million miles is huge but in astronomical terms its miniscule. All of the outer planets have moons orbiting at greater distances than that.

 

[Tired Tyres]

The picture you posted is shown tilted at an angle to make it look closer that it really is. 0.242 AU is nearly a full quarter of the distance from the Sun to the Earth. We've had much closer calls than that one.

 

[Grayfox]

Apophis will pass within 0.09666 AU (14.4 million km,8.9 million mi.) of the Earth in 2013 allowing astronomers to refine the trajectory for future close passes.

That is as close as it gets.

Sorce is Wiki.

 

[Touring Mars]

With respect to Comet Elenin, you can use the interactive controls of this JPL browser to see the position of the comet within the solar system along its timeline. http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=2010x1&orb=1

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

👍 This is a very nice little applet. While it remains at a safe distance from us in October, it's still 'a close one'...

 

[cuckooshoe]

this is the headline..

Is Comet Elenin a Brown Dwarf Star? – An Exclusive Interview with Dr. Mensur Omerbashich

http://yowusa.com/planetx/2011/planetx-2011-06a/1.shtml

and this is the answer

9. Many on the Web believe that Elenin is a brown dwarf star, an unborn sister sun to our own Sol and your paper is often cited to bolster their theories. Simply put, do your findings indicate that Elenin is or possibly could be a brown dwarf sun?

I am not an expert on solar physics, so I cannot answer your question.

 

[Dotini]

Is Comet Elenin a Brown Dwarf Star?

Comet Elenin is definitely NOT a brown dwarf star. The comet is nearing the orbit of Mars about now. If it were a brown dwarf it would be easily visible with the naked eye at night and it would have been reported on long ago.

Cautionary Note: Scientific-appearing papers published by the Cornell University Library must be taken with a grain of salt. This is the place where real but marginal (crank?) scientists publish as a last resort, when no more prestigious institution will accept their paper for publication.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[cuckooshoe]

Comet Elenin is definitely NOT a brown dwarf star. The comet is nearing the orbit of Mars about now. If it were a brown dwarf it would be easily visible with the naked eye at night and it would have been reported on long ago.

Cautionary Note: Scientific-appearing papers published by the Cornell University Library must be taken with a grain of salt. This is the place where real but marginal (crank?) scientists publish as a last resort, when no more prestigious institution will accept their paper for publication.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

thanks for your reply Dotini..

you may be interested in this video, the link was provided by leonid elenin himself, on his spaceobs website.. the video is called '' What if we replace comet Elenin by brown dwarf''

http://spaceobs.org/en/2011/06/03/what-if-we-replace-comet-elenin-by-brown-dwarf/#disqus_thread

i'm now working my way through the comments submitted in response to the clip..

ps. read through your thread earlier today.. as i was reading it, i thought of articles and you tube clips i had read and seen on the internet.. i wondered if they would be mentioned here.. and they were! it is because of you i'm here.. hope everyone goes easy on me..

 

[Dotini]

thanks for your reply Dotini..

ps. read through your thread earlier today.. as i was reading it, i thought of articles and you tube clips i had read and seen on the internet.. i wondered if they would be mentioned here.. and they were! it is because of you i'm here.. hope everyone goes easy on me..

Welcome to the GTP Opinions and Current Events forum, Comet Elenin thread, cuckooshoe! And thank you for your kind remarks. They are sincerely appreciated. But you can be sure pretty much nobody will go easy on you, because we like to ask for acceptable evidence to back up unlikely or unusual claims. Often, especially when learning your way around new forums, it is wise to make your post in the form of a question. That way, you never put yourself in the position of making an unsound claim. Let me tell you, I've learned the hard way.

Warm regards,
Dotini

 

[cuckooshoe]

Welcome to the GTP Opinions and Current Events forum, Comet Elenin thread, cuckooshoe! And thank you for your kind remarks. They are sincerely appreciated. But you can be sure pretty much nobody will go easy on you, because we like to ask for acceptable evidence to back up unlikely or unusual claims. Often, especially when learning your way around new forums, it is wise to make your post in the form of a question. That way, you never put yourself in the position of making an unsound claim. Let me tell you, I've learned the hard way.

Warm regards,
Dotini

thank you Dotini..

this is for you

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stereo/news/encke.html

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/moonmars/features/magnetotail_080416.html

 

[Dotini]

this is for you

Thanks for those very valuable links, cuckooshoe! They contain insight that might be relevant to a number of interesting questions.

Reading the 2nd one, I was inspired with a possible prediction for what *might* happen when Earth intersects Elenin's plasma tail. The reasoning goes like this:

1) Very long period comets like Elenin are theorized to have a high negative charge. Let's suppose this is true in Elenin's case, although it might not be so.
2) So Earth might receive a few weeks of higher than normal negative charge. So what?
3) Normally, the Earth's surface is in approximate electrical balance with the atmosphere. Negative charge is carried from cloud to earth by lightning, positive charge is carried from cloud to earth by rain, and carried upward by corona discharge off grass, trees and other sharp points on the ground beneath thunderstorms. Nothing controversial here.
4) But in order to maintain electrical balance during this period of time in question, there must be an increase in positive discharges. Therefore, we would expect events akin to St. Elmo's fire, and more rain without lightning to be seen.

Respectfully submitted, and out on a limb,
Dotini

 

[Starfirebird]

Thanks for those very valuable links, cuckooshoe! They contain insight that might be relevant to a number of interesting questions.

Reading the 2nd one, I was inspired with a possible prediction for what *might* happen when Earth intersects Elenin's plasma tail. The reasoning goes like this:

1) Very long period comets like Elenin are theorized to have a high negative charge. Let's suppose this is true in Elenin's case, although it might not be so.
2) So Earth might receive a few weeks of higher than normal negative charge. So what?
3) Normally, the Earth's surface is in approximate electrical balance with the atmosphere. Negative charge is carried from cloud to earth by lightning, positive charge is carried from cloud to earth by rain, and carried upward by corona discharge off grass, trees and other sharp points on the ground beneath thunderstorms. Nothing controversial here.
4) But in order to maintain electrical balance during this period of time in question, there must be an increase in positive discharges. Therefore, we would expect events akin to St. Elmo's fire, and more rain without lightning to be seen.

Respectfully submitted, and out on a limb,
Dotini

So if we do get a week or two's worth of higher than normal negative charges could it be possible that we get more severe storms and not just more rain without lightning?

I found this bit of info,because i was curious on the matter and to me it's saying if there is more negative charges in the atmosphere(clouds i would presume)we would have more storms with heavy cases of lightning.

WHAT CAUSES LIGHTNING? As more and more water droplets collide inside a cloud, their atoms bounce off each other more forcefully. This knocks off electrons. The ousted electrons gather at the lower portion of the cloud, giving it a negative charge, while the upper part of the cloud becomes positively charged. Eventually the growing negative charge becomes so intense that electrons on the Earth's surface are repelled and burrow deeper into the Earth. The Earth's surface becomes positively charged, and hence very attractive to the negative charge accumulating in the bottom of the cloud. All that is needed is a conductive path between cloud and Earth, in the form of ionized air.

Not trying to create an argument,i'm just curious is all.

 

[Starfirebird]

👍 This is a very nice little applet. While it remains at a safe distance from us in October, it's still 'a close one'...

This one will be even closer not sure if it's Elenin as this one doesn't say Elenin.

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/images/2005_YU55_approach_movie.gif



Near-Earth asteroid 2005 YU55 will pass within 0.85 lunar distances from the Earth on November 8, 2011. The upcoming close approach by this relatively large 400 meter-sized, C-type asteroid presents an excellent opportunity for synergistic ground-based observations including optical, near infrared and radar data. The attached animated illustration shows the Earth and moon flyby geometry for November 8th and 9th when the object will reach a visual brightness of 11th magnitude and should be easily visible to observers in the northern and southern hemispheres. The closest approach to Earth and the Moon will be respectively 0.00217 AU and 0.00160 AU on 2011 November 8 at 23:28 and November 9 at 07:13 UT.

 

[buggs1a]

It's not going to hit earth as none will probably. Least not till Jesus comes to get Christians. And even then there may not be anything hitting earth till the 7 year great tribulation bible talks about. How do I know? I don't know fact, but I know what the bible says about the end times right before Jesus comes to rapture the Christians and I don't think anything killer size could hit us being it doesn't fit in with end times.

This is what I believe. So I think were ok till god comes to get us Christians. I believe this.