Complaining about free content
- Thread starter Majorwolf72
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Veinz
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- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
Not too absurd, really. Who are we to decide when a game is/isn't done in terms of content? As for bugs, things happen, but I don't know one single game that has fixed 100% of any bugs found, nor have released with 0 bugs, for as long as I've been gaming. The one thing that always gets me is when people bring up the golden age of gaming, acting like games 10-20 years ago had none. The difference is now that they're able to fix it post-release, before we were stuck with whatever shipped on the cartridges.
It's cute, these assumptions you make. If making up bs is what you like to do, than in similar fashion, you do you!
To extend on that though, what exact tactics have I accepted from EA and Activision specifically?
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- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
Obvious over-exaggeration out of the way, they got the hard part paved out for them, so there really shouldn't be a reason for it to drop as much as it did the next time. Much like Forza when it also started with 200 cars on a new generation - with it now towering up to 700+ in two games - they've got the groundwork done to only improve.Next GT is gonna launch with only 20 hyper-premium cars and we're gonna receive 1 free car per month. Complaining is prohibited because it's free content.
"But that's absurd! How would they release a game with 15% of its predecessor's content?"
At this point, it would be yours and only your fault that your in a predicament to complain in the first place, because you chose to purchase such a barebones game(going off your example) in the first place. If literally any game dev does that, there will be crap, and rightfully so because that is actually ridiculous, compared to what is actually happening.
- 152
- Italy
So let me understand... if a Gran Turismo comes out with more than 1000 cars is not good because most seem to be cars coming from ps2 and with low quality textures, etc..., if instead a Gran Turismo comes out with 150 cars reproduced in a manic way and then release cars of the last generation (and new) but totally redone and new tracks, all this without asking for a penny, is not good... OK 
- 27,387
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- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
I dunno, not all bugs are created equal. In some cases, I've definitely wondered how people even discover some of the stranger ones in games. And games these days are massively more complicated than they were 15 years ago.
As for paid DLC, it will always be a grey area because everybody's sense of value is different. On a per-car basis, most racing games do charge more for DLC than what you'd calculate in the vanilla game, but that's being intentionally misleading: there's so much more to the rest of the base package that a car pack doesn't feature.
But let's take GTS and FM7 as two examples. GTS launched with less than 200 cars, FM7 with 700. GTS has added 100 for free. FM7 has added just over 100, as a mix of about 80/20 in favour of paid. One could argue that GTS needed to add them for free, because the original roster was so small. Alternately, given their quality, one could also argue they could've come with a price attached. Same goes with FM7: with 700 in the base game, one could say there's no reason to charge when a comparatively small percentage is added on top. Or, as nearly every single one was new-to-franchise and of great quality, that they're worth the price.
There's also the question of upgraded previous-gen content — one that's pretty unique to our genre, really. FM5 got a ton of flack back in 2013, justifiably so IMO, for charging money for cars that had been in FM4 on X360. They were upgraded visually (though still had some of the same livery editing issues), but it felt cheap to many, less like a "genuine" addition.
I'm still impressed that PD keeps adding so many cars for free. I'm guessing it has something to do with the reception of the game, especially as most of the additions don't fall into the Group categories, but either way, it's great for players. If the team announced the DLC were to be paid in 2019, I wouldn't be bothered, as I think the work deserves my cash. However, if it followed the trend of all the DLC so far — predominantly re-done GT6 content — I'd probably balk a bit versus genuine new-to-franchise content. It's pretty clear that redoing GT6 content happens a lot faster than making something fully new from scratch, so with the four year gap between 6 and Sport, I do wonder why the base game came with so few PS3-era cars...
Which then brings me back to the reception of the game forcing this constant DLC path, and makes me think it was always part of the plan. But instead of a knee-jerk response to those wanting a traditional GT experience, it was PD realizing a GAAS steady drip-feed keeps more people invested.
Sorry for the long rambling there.
So let me understand... if a Gran Turismo comes out with more than 1000 cars is not good because most seem to be cars coming from ps2 and with low quality textures, etc..., if instead a Gran Turismo comes out with 150 cars reproduced in a manic way and then release cars of the last generation (and new) but totally redone and new tracks, all this without asking for a penny, is not good... OK
I don't think that's the message here. I think the general idea is that just because something is free doesn't protect it from criticism. Which, IMO, is fair: I've never subscribed to the idea that I have to like something just because it's free. I grew up in the time of Christmas fruitcakes though, so maybe that's why!
- 161
- Canada
Not too absurd, really. Who are we to decide when a game is/isn't done in terms of content? As for bugs, things happen, but I don't know one single game that has fixed 100% of any bugs found, nor have released with 0 bugs, for as long as I've been gaming. The one thing that always gets me is when people bring up the golden age of gaming, acting like games 10-20 years ago had none. The difference is now that they're able to fix it post-release, before we were stuck with whatever shipped on the cartridges.
It's cute, these assumptions you make. If making up bs is what you like to do, than in similar fashion, you do you!
well, you must be very young because games used to come out fully complete and not need patches all the time. You can't find a game today that is released without needing patches. The industry has also shifted to a pay to play system because they have trained the young and naive to pay for silly cosmetic things.
- 152
- Italy
Of course everyone have a different point of view, but I also think that with all the work done by Polyphony is a good basis for the next Gran Turismo 👍I dunno, not all bugs are created equal. In some cases, I've definitely wondered how people even discover some of the stranger ones in games. And games these days are massively more complicated than they were 15 years ago.
As for paid DLC, it will always be a grey area because everybody's sense of value is different. On a per-car basis, most racing games do charge more for DLC than what you'd calculate in the vanilla game, but that's being intentionally misleading: there's so much more to the rest of the base package that a car pack doesn't feature.
But let's take GTS and FM7 as two examples. GTS launched with less than 200 cars, FM7 with 700. GTS has added 100 for free. FM7 has added just over 100, as a mix of about 80/20 in favour of paid. One could argue that GTS needed to add them for free, because the original roster was so small. Alternately, given their quality, one could also argue they could've come with a price attached. Same goes with FM7: with 700 in the base game, one could say there's no reason to charge when a comparatively small percentage is added on top. Or, as nearly every single one was new-to-franchise and of great quality, that they're worth the price.
There's also the question of upgraded previous-gen content — one that's pretty unique to our genre, really. FM5 got a ton of flack back in 2013, justifiably so IMO, for charging money for cars that had been in FM4 on X360. They were upgraded visually (though still had some of the same livery editing issues), but it felt cheap to many, less like a "genuine" addition.
I'm still impressed that PD keeps adding so many cars for free. I'm guessing it has something to do with the reception of the game, especially as most of the additions don't fall into the Group categories, but either way, it's great for players. If the team announced the DLC were to be paid in 2019, I wouldn't be bothered, as I think the work deserves my cash. However, if it followed the trend of all the DLC so far — predominantly re-done GT6 content — I'd probably balk a bit versus genuine new-to-franchise content. It's pretty clear that redoing GT6 content happens a lot faster than making something fully new from scratch, so with the four year gap between 6 and Sport, I do wonder why the base game came with so few PS3-era cars...
Which then brings me back to the reception of the game forcing this constant DLC path, and makes me think it was always part of the plan. But instead of a knee-jerk response to those wanting a traditional GT experience, it was PD realizing a GAAS steady drip-feed keeps more people invested.
Sorry for the long rambling there.
I don't think that's the message here. I think the general idea is that just because something is free doesn't protect it from criticism. Which, IMO, is fair: I've never subscribed to the idea that I have to like something just because it's free. I grew up in the time of Christmas fruitcakes though, so maybe that's why!
- 27,387
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- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
Nope. Even Gran Turismo isn't immune: GT2 shipped with quite a few bugs, ranging from not being able to hit 100%, to one that wiped your entire garage. The solution? Oh, not a patch. It required an entire new print run of the disc, which is what happened with the Greatest Hits version.
While today's connected experience does allow for devs to release unfinished games, it also allows them to fix them for far, far cheaper than before. There's also something to be said for Early Access, a la ACC: Kunos can get important data from fans of the game before it's version 1.0 launch, helping with the development process.
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- lImaRobotl
30 years young to be exact. However, no, games never came out perfect in the past - Hell, even back when games released on cartridges, where you are unable to get any fixes after you buy the game. You'd have to repurchase any updates in either a sequel, expansion, or re-release.
How is paying for cosmetics even remotely considered pay to play? You literally don't have to buy anything at all, to play the games we're talking about, outside the initial, actual game price. I think you're mixing up your terminology.
- 161
- Canada
did you just say games NEVER came out perfect in the past? Thats a pretty bold statement... how many nintendo, sega cartridges did you get sent to replace non-perfect games... lol. You can admit you're wrong without looking like a fool.
The difference between then and now is when a game did release and was not finished, it died. Sierra killed itself by releasing a game to early (FPS Football). Back then it was a mistake to release a broken game, now its the norm.
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Bold statement, sure, but I'm hard pressed to find a game to come out 100% perfect back in a time where they weren't able to fix it by digital-updates.
How many did I get sent to replace the non-perfect games? None, because sending them in wouldn't have done anything for the games that had issues, because they were never updated. Hell, I even remember the Dreamcast coming out, and Sonic Adventure having its own issues. No fix for that, and even re-releasing it it never got fixed
- 161
- Canada
Bold statement, sure, but I'm hard pressed to find a game to come out 100% perfect back in a time where they weren't able to fix it by digital-updates.
How many did I get sent to replace the non-perfect games? None, because sending them in wouldn't have done anything for the games that had issues, because they were never updated. Hell, I even remember the Dreamcast coming out, and Sonic Adventure having its own issues. No fix for that, and even re-releasing it it never got fixed
you're their perfect customer, you expect garbage and will pay extra to have the garbage fixed. Like I said, they have trained the young and naive.
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- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
Who's perfect customer for what reason? What exactly did I pay extra for? Also what fixes/updates cost money in this context?
You know what they say about assumptions
Seems to be a lot of these going around today, and if you have no basis for your claims then it's irrelevant from the get go.And even considering that, it didn't stop games from having bugs and glitches in the past. Now they just have opportunity to actually fix it without having to do so much as release a free update if they're so inclined.
Funny that you're saying that games didn't have bugs in the past and that they released without issues, and now you seem to actually be agreeing with my point.
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- 687
- Canada
Forza charges "more for less" in post-release content, but they also offer way more than double the amount of content as part of the core package. And the Car Pass isn't $45 USD. The Ultimate Edition of FH4 (that cost approximately $45 more) included the weekly Car Pass, the VIP Pass, two car packs at launch (which on their own amount to around 20 cars in total), AND both expansions (Fortune Island and the as-yet-unannounced one). Plus "free" cars added to the game for everyone near weekly, like the Mosler and Hudson Hornet last week and the Hoonigan RS200 this week.
PD aren't "mercenary" because they can't afford to be - GT Sport owners would rightly be outraged if their game that launched with a couple hundred cars also had a full-price car pass and paid updates to bring the number of tracks and cars up to something approaching parity with their primary rival and point of comparison.
Are we supposed to be more impressed with PD, because their free post-release content represents a higher percentage of overall content, due to launching with way less than Forza 7 or Forza Horizon 4 did out of the box?
And Forza actually eliminated "car tokens" from their games, while PD essentially added a form of them.
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Old games shipped with bugs all the time. The difference was that a) they tended to be less critical as games were also far SIMPLER code-wise back in the Genesis or NES days, and b) if there were bugs, you either did nothing about them (because you couldn't), or you literally ran a new printing of the cartridge/disc, which only fixed it for subsequent buyers.
The sheer amount of code in Chrono Trigger, versus, say, Skyrim, can be measured in orders of magnitude. More code and more interlocking gameplay systems, equals more chances for things to break in unexpected ways.
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