Conservatism

[Duke]

Some of us are wise, virtuous, and independently successful. But as a species, perhaps we realize we need all the help we can get?

It's NOT helping.

 

[Dotini]

It's NOT helping.

True, it's not directly helping the rich and successful like us. However, the planet is teeming with billions of people, many of whom are oppressed, starving, freezing or baking to death. If they were suddenly deprived of their belief system, they wouldn't have much left to keep them going, to give them hope that their miserable existence wasn't completely without meaning and purpose. When I was touring many of the nation's indigenous peoples tribal centers, I always bought something at the gift shop. My favorite is a tee-shirt which boldly says, "Don't Worry Be Hopi"

 

[TheCracker]

People who choose not to follow a religion generally don't mind if others continue to do so. That's their choice. It only pisses people off when those religions start dictating what non-believers can or can't do. I don't subcribe to any religion, so i don't want their texts/stories guiding me either by choice or by law.

Religion has no place in governance or law.

 

[TexRex]

True, it's not directly helping the rich and successful like us. However, the planet is teeming with billions of people, many of whom are oppressed, starving, freezing or baking to death. If they were suddenly deprived of their belief system, they wouldn't have much left to keep them going, to give them hope that their miserable existence wasn't completely without meaning and purpose. When I was touring many of the nation's indigenous peoples tribal centers, I always bought something at the gift shop. My favorite is a tee-shirt which boldly says, "Don't Worry Be Hopi"

An abundance of words wholly lacking substance.

 

[Duke]

People who choose not to follow a religion generally don't mind if others continue to do so. That's their choice. It only pisses people off when those religions start dictating what non-believers can or can't do.

And so few of them can stop themselves - or even want to stop.

True, it's not directly helping the rich and successful like us.

If religion is a crutch to help the unfortunate and destitute get through the travails of daily existence, why are there so many believers among the "rich and successful"?

Not a single one of our conservative Christian lawmakers (or their supporters) is anything but rich and successful on the world scale. Nor is it limited to rich, white Christians. Look at any under-developed, over-zealous Muslim country. Look at right-wing Israel. Look at any Abrahamic religion.

Religious conservatism is not only "not directly helping", it is actively destroying society.

 

[Dotini]

Religion has no place in governance or law.

In advanced and civilized cultures, we don't accord religion much stature, as we have well established governance and law. However, there are places lacking much in the way of governance and law. Without a basic belief system, they may well have to deal with civil war, anarchy and the law of the jungle.

 

[Duke]

In advanced and civilized cultures, we don't accord religion much stature, as we have well established governance and law. However, there are places lacking much in the way of governance and law. Without a basic belief system, they may well have to deal with civil war, anarchy and the law of the jungle.

This so factually incorrect that I hardly know how to respond to it.

Religion being accorded too much stature over governance and law is one of the chief problems facing Western civilization - and specifically the United States - today.

And among the places "lacking much in the way of governance and law", religion is one of the primary causes of civil war and genocide.

 

[Dotini]

Religion being accorded too much stature over governance and law is one of the chief problems facing Western civilization - and specifically the United States - today.

Citation requested.

 

[HenrySwanson]

In advanced and civilized cultures, we don't accord religion much stature, as we have well established governance and law. However, there are places lacking much in the way of governance and law. Without a basic belief system, they may well have to deal with civil war, anarchy and the law of the jungle.

I know you can have some...."out there" takes, and though I find some of your contibutions to be thought provoking in a good way this does seem to be verifiably wrong.

You only have to look at what's happening in Brazil, Hungary and India to see this.

 

[Duke]

Citation requested.

Look at any reported political action by the Republicans in the last, ohhh, 10 years. See also the European Christian Political Movement.

 

[Dotini]

I know you can have some...."out there" takes, and though I find some of your contibutions to be thought provoking in a good way this does seem to be verifiably wrong.

You only have to look at what's happening in Brazil, Hungary and India to see this.

I can't speak for Brazil. But here in the US, I have served in the criminal justice system and served on half a dozen juries. I can guarantee you the church does not run the police departments or the courts. I have a nephew who is a high placed lawyer in the Washington State Legislature. I can guarantee you the church does not make the laws in the State of Washington.

Personally, I am not religious, never have been, and neither has my family. But I marched in sympathy with the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr in the cause of human rights. When I enter a Jewish temple, I wear a yarmulka. I do not squat and **** in the doorway. Here in Seattle, we still have knuckle draggers who burn and desecrate places of worship...

 

[Joey D]

I can't speak for Brazil. But here in the US, I have served in the criminal justice system and served on half a dozen juries. I can guarantee you the church does not run the police departments or the courts. I have a nephew who is a high placed lawyer in the Washington State Legislature. I can guarantee you the church does not make the laws in the State of Washington.

It probably largely depends on where you're at in the US. Here in Utah religion does make the laws and the ones it doesn't make, it heavily influences. It's why I can't buy a bottle of wine at the grocery store or a lottery ticket at the gas station. I'm sure there are places in the south that are the same way too.

 

[Danoff]

I can't speak for Brazil. But here in the US, I have served in the criminal justice system and served on half a dozen juries. I can guarantee you the church does not run the police departments or the courts. I have a nephew who is a high placed lawyer in the Washington State Legislature. I can guarantee you the church does not make the laws in the State of Washington.

You're correct that religion is not allowed to directly control the law in the US, and this is entirely too literal an interpretation of what is being said. Religious ideas permeate political movements. You don't need to look any farther than debates over abortion and teaching "intelligent design" to see religious motivation in law.

 

[TheCracker]

In advanced and civilized cultures, we don't accord religion much stature, as we have well established governance and law. However, there are places lacking much in the way of governance and law. Without a basic belief system, they may well have to deal with civil war, anarchy and the law of the jungle.

Your own country's current political battlefield very much begs to differ.

Some of the issues that led Russia to eventually invade Ukraine were down to Ukraine's orthodox church splitting from the Russian orthodox church. One of the biggest stumbling blocks with Brexit in the UK is how post-brexit trade affects the Good Friday Agreement, which went a long way in holting the longstanding hostilities between catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland.

It may well be that religion historically gained traction within governments of undeveloped nations by helping keep unruly citizens in some assemblance of order, but as @Duke says above, spats between differing religions has caused much more harm then it helped in the long run.

 

[McLaren]

It probably largely depends on where you're at in the US. Here in Utah religion does make the laws and the ones it doesn't make, it heavily influences. It's why I can't buy a bottle of wine at the grocery store or a lottery ticket at the gas station. I'm sure there are places in the south that are the same way too.

Guns before 21? Every Texan’s natural born right.

Alcohol before 12 on Sunday? Hol’ up there, buckaroo.

 

[Duke]

[h]ere in the US, I have served in the criminal justice system and served on half a dozen juries. I can guarantee you the church does not run the police departments or the courts. I have a nephew who is a high placed lawyer in the Washington State Legislature. I can guarantee you the church does not make the laws in the State of Washington.

Personally, I am not religious, never have been, and neither has my family. But I marched in sympathy with the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr in the cause of human rights. When I enter a Jewish temple, I wear a yarmulka. I do not squat and **** in the doorway. Here in Seattle, we still have knuckle draggers who burn and desecrate places of worship...

The police and the courts are the Executive Branch - you may have heard of it - and they enforce the laws made by the Legislative Branch.

Religious Conservatives in the United States are actively voting in legislators who are making it their mission to legally restrict the rights and civil liberties of those who differ from their own religious and/or moral convictions.

Question: How many of your "knuckle draggers who burn and desecrate places of worship" are atheists, and how many are religious people from an opposing team?

 

[Dotini]

You're correct that religion is not allowed to directly control the law in the US, and this is entirely too literal an interpretation of what is being said. Religious ideas permeate political movements. You don't need to look any farther than debates over abortion and teaching "intelligent design" to see religious motivation in law.

Ideas, debates and votes should have a legitimate place in political movements. But not bullets, bombs and torches.

Some of the issues that led Russia to eventually invade Ukraine were down to Ukraine's orthodox church splitting from the Russian orthodox church. One of the biggest stumbling blocks with Brexit in the UK is how post-brexit trade affects the Good Friday Agreement, which went a long way in holting the longstanding hostilities between catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland.

It may well be that religion historically gained traction within governments of undeveloped nations by helping keep unruly citizens in some assemblance of order, but as @Duke says above, spats between differing religions has caused much more harm then it helped in the long run.

Old Europe has been overrun by hordes from every corner, from the steppes of China to the Fertile Crescent, bringing conflicting belief system with them. In the Americas, the indigenous peoples are in remarkable accord.

 

[Danoff]

Ideas, debates and votes should have a legitimate place in political movements. But not bullets, bombs and torches.

The idea that abortion should be banned because God infuses the soul at conception according to your interpretation of holy scripture has no place in a US political movement.

 

[Duke]

The idea that abortion should be banned because God infuses the soul at conception according to your interpretation of holy scripture has no place in a US political movement.

See also: same-gender marriages, polygamy, or sex of any kind between consenting adults.

 

[TexRex]

Gosh.

 

[Dotini]

Question: How many of your "knuckle draggers who burn and desecrate places of worship" are atheists, and how many are religious people from an opposing team?

Around the nation, mosques, temples, synagogues and churches that have been burned and desecrated have been motivated by many reasons, recently some even by atheists. In Seattle, the more usual common denominator is anti-semitism, but swastikas have been found in vandalized Hindu temples. A "rising animus against religion", as is your wont, is mentioned prominently.

Arson, Graffiti and More: Vandals Increasingly Target Catholic Churches

The suggested reasons for the attacks vary, but at root is a rising animus against religion.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Scaff]

I can guarantee you the church does not make the laws in the State of Washington.

The Supreme Court of the US's recent rulings say you're wrong.

States that require you to believe to hold public office say your wrong.

In theory the US has a separation of Church and State, in reality it hasn't for a long time.

 

[TheCracker]

Ideas, debates and votes should have a legitimate place in political movements. But not bullets, bombs and torches.


Old Europe has been overrun by hordes from every corner, from the steppes of China to the Fertile Crescent, bringing conflicting belief system with them. In the Americas, the indigenous peoples are in remarkable accord.

I assume you are talking about Native American Spirtuality here? (and whatever passed for religion in within the pre-Columbian tribes in South America). I'm pretty sure when those damn Europeans and their various forms of christianity arrived, there wasn't much accord.

 

[Dotini]

your wrong.

The Supreme Court's ruling is not my wrong. You may wish to correct your spelling to "you're" wrong.

In any case, the State of Washington has declared itself a sanctuary state, and will not enforce any abortion laws or police requests from other states.

 

[Famine]

The Supreme Courts ruling is not my wrong. If may wish to correct your spelling to "you're" wrong.

That'd be "Court's", and I have no idea what "If may wish" is supposed to mean.

If you're going to correct people on their grammar in lieu of making any kind of rebuttal, don't be slapdash with your own.

 

[Scaff]

The Supreme Court's ruling is not my wrong. You may wish to correct your spelling to "you're" wrong.

You might want to actually address the point I made rather than embarrassing yourself with a failed gotcha.

In any case, the State of Washington has declared itself a sanctuary state, and will not enforce any abortion laws or police requests from other states.

Still doesn't address my point.

 

[Dotini]

That'd be "Court's", and I have no idea what "If may wish" is supposed to mean.

If you're going to correct people on their grammar in lieu of making any kind of rebuttal, don't be slapdash with your own.

I corrected my grammar within seconds. He never did.

 

[TexRex]

You might want to actually address the point I made rather than embarrassing yourself with a failed gotcha.

Who are you talking to?!

Edit:

I coerrected my grammar within seconds. He never did.

lol

 

[Scaff]

I coerrected my grammar within seconds. He never did.

Put your toys back in the pram, I've done it for you, so how about you actually address the points I raised now?

Who are you talking to?!

The member I quoted @Dotini

 

[TexRex]

The member I quoted @Dotini

Yeah, no, that wasn't so much a question as it was a plea to consider who you're talking to. Dotini, as a rule, has no desire to address points.