COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)
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- cutback73
- cutback73
I think the car you're referring to might be the Lamborghini Myu-Rho?What an absolute 🤬.
How many other deaths is he responsible for, I wonder? And now they are begging for cash??
Co-infection with the mu and rho variants (aka Mu-rho disease) may cause verbal diahorrea, esp. when talking about cars.
Sorry, I'll get my coat as I leave...
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Joey D
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Remember when people said COVID does kids as severely or cause them to end up in the hospital? Pepperidge Farm remembers:
www.cnn.com
200,000 children were admitted to the hospital in one week. A month ago, we saw 38,000 children hospitalized. That's a five times increase in cases and the school year just started.
For whatever reason, we have governors and state legislatures hellbent on preventing a mask mandate which is effectively harming kids.
Child Covid-19 hospitalizations reach a new high. That's not the only reason kids need to be protected from Delta, doctors say
Doctors say keeping kids Covid-free is critical to keep in-person learning, prevent long-term complications and help stave off more aggressive variants for everyone.
200,000 children were admitted to the hospital in one week. A month ago, we saw 38,000 children hospitalized. That's a five times increase in cases and the school year just started.
For whatever reason, we have governors and state legislatures hellbent on preventing a mask mandate which is effectively harming kids.
- 5,588
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- ryzno
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- GTP_Cyborg
Skimmed back several pages, seems the thread is generally pro-vax. Surprisingly not seeing mention of Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of mRNA vax technology and how vocal he's been... I'm curious what the group's thoughts are on this guy?
*ed. - hey, finally found the 'search this thread' bar!
*ed. - hey, finally found the 'search this thread' bar!
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Joey D
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As @Famine pointed out, he didn't invent it, although he did conduct studies regarding it. Here's a brief look at the beginnings of mRNA if you're interested. And here's one of the initial papers on it dating back to May 1961.
As for Dr. Malone, he's about as reliable as Post Malone. I wouldn't listen to anything he says since he's nothing more than a quack doctor who ignores actual medical science and promotes horse dewormer.
Also, that YouTube channel looks hella suspect.
ROAD_DOGG33J
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- holyc0w1
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- Ridley-X4
I think I've stopped feeling sympathy for those who are dying at this point, though with minimal exceptions. It seems to me that a sizable amount of people are literally too dumb to live.
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- 5,500
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- gundalini
There's big differences across the population mate, my second caused zero, zilch, nada, no side effects whatsoever. Not even a sore arm I got the first time.
You'll be fine mate.
Bookmarked for easy access for the next time some muppet tries to tell me the mRNA vaccine process was only come up with since the advent of Covid.
Sadly I think that will be in the next few hours as I'm at work and we have some rabid anti vaxxers.
Thanks. 👍
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- TexRex72
A significant exception ought to be those who are presently ineligible for vaccination, specifically children under 12 and any others who may be denied access to vaccination by their guardians.
There are also people who are legitimately advised to not be vaccinated or for whom vaccination efficacy isn't so assured, such as those with certain health conditions and those currently undergoing treatment for certain health conditions. Immunosuppressive therapy comes to mind. But it needs to be made clear that this is a small group of people relative to the group for whom vaccination is sternly advised.
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- 5,066
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- Ridley-X4
Yeah, those are the sort of people I make exceptions for. I even get where some people are coming from, like if they got spooked by the J&J blood clots. But the people who think Bill Gates is gonna install a microchip or something? The ones taking horse de-worming meds? Yeah, I can't say I'd care if they live for another attosecond.
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- 2,833
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- GTP_Cyborg
MIE1992, what about the people who've died potentially as a result of the vaccine? There are enough out there that passed or were seriously affected soon after taking it, and it's a bit of a stretch for me to believe all of these cases are coincidence. That, and the side-effects that have absolutely nothing to do with your respiratory system, is where my hesitance comes from. Why the hell did my sister get leg pain so bad she was having trouble sleeping? Or the large number of people with various blood/heart issues?
Inventor or not, he clearly (or 'allegedly') specializes in these kinds of viruses so there's what he's actually saying that needs to be dissected if it is to be dismissed as misinformation, outside of that very unscientific article the video your linked post revolves around. Re-posting opinionated tweets that you happen to agree with doesn't move us forward.
Personally, since I'm not in the 'at risk' demographic to be badly affected by this virus, at least for now I'll take my chances without the vax. If I was old or otherwise in poor health, I'd probably have gotten the shots by now. On the whole I'm not anti-vaccine, but from what I've seen over the last year and a half, "better safe than sorry" is leaning me more toward avoiding this vaccine. The only thing that really concerns me is mandates; since the proof is out there that the vaccine doesn't provide protection for anyone but yourself, I simply believe we should all be allowed our own decision in this.
But how are you so sure he's a "quack who ignores actual medical science?" Do any of you have a lifetime of studying and working with this stuff to know yourselves? Can you pick any of this apart providing actual medical science? There seems to be a lot of actual medical science here that if untrue any virologist could easily knock down:
"Who do I trust?" is the question. This is all making it hard to trust anyone and just stick to gut feelings, since both sides - conspiracy theorists aside - are saying that the other is wrong and stupid.
Yes, I found that post when I edited my comment. That post you're giving me doesn't actually provide proof of anything [*future edit: the comments that have appeared while putting together this post are just as much a joke. "Sus" and shallow jabs, way to provide a mature case, guys]. Do you expect me to dismiss an alleged scientist, but not some random video game forum commenter? Don't mean to be a dick, but since you're so quick to respond with that, do you have anything real for me, from another allegedly credible course, to contradict specifics in what Malone's saying, I'd honestly love to see it. I too am trying to sort through all the crap we're being given through every media outlet.
Inventor or not, he clearly (or 'allegedly') specializes in these kinds of viruses so there's what he's actually saying that needs to be dissected if it is to be dismissed as misinformation, outside of that very unscientific article the video your linked post revolves around. Re-posting opinionated tweets that you happen to agree with doesn't move us forward.
Thank you for the links, I'll check them out. But again, remember that we're on a forum that's every bit as suspect when it comes to medical information (yeah, the channel itself was turning me off as well, but it's Malone's words that need to be considered), who do you honestly think I'm going to lean more towards for accuracy? I try looking into Malone's credibility, but I'm only finding sources I've never heard of and therefore can't exactly trust at face value either. It becomes never-ending research into credibility. Given my experience with the general public, popular opinion is really not worth following a lot of the time. There's also more to ivermectin than horse dewormer... not that I'm remotely interested in taking any form of it, for the record.
Personally, since I'm not in the 'at risk' demographic to be badly affected by this virus, at least for now I'll take my chances without the vax. If I was old or otherwise in poor health, I'd probably have gotten the shots by now. On the whole I'm not anti-vaccine, but from what I've seen over the last year and a half, "better safe than sorry" is leaning me more toward avoiding this vaccine. The only thing that really concerns me is mandates; since the proof is out there that the vaccine doesn't provide protection for anyone but yourself, I simply believe we should all be allowed our own decision in this.
But how are you so sure he's a "quack who ignores actual medical science?" Do any of you have a lifetime of studying and working with this stuff to know yourselves? Can you pick any of this apart providing actual medical science? There seems to be a lot of actual medical science here that if untrue any virologist could easily knock down:
"Who do I trust?" is the question. This is all making it hard to trust anyone and just stick to gut feelings, since both sides - conspiracy theorists aside - are saying that the other is wrong and stupid.
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Danoff
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Citation needed. Here are people who have died as a result of not having the vaccine:
Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated
Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the United States now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the vaccines have been and an indication that daily deaths — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the shots.
apnews.com
"And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people. That translates to about 0.8%, or five deaths per day on average."
18,000 people dead from covid (in the US in May), 150 of them were vaccinated. The other 17,850 were unvaccinated. How many people did Pfizer kill in the US in May?
Edit:
It looks like the number might be zero. If we're talking J&J and we're counting all of 2021, it looks like it might be 3 or 4. But on initial search I'm getting zero for May in the US.
Edit:
Imagine there's a chime in your house that goes off every time someone unvaccinated dies in the US from covid and a different chime that goes off every time someone someone dies from a covid vaccine. May comes along, it's a relatively quiet time for covid compared to lots of other times. You hear the chime every 150 seconds steadily for the entire month of may. It keeps you up all night, all day you hear the chime pounded into your head every 2.5 minutes. You sit down to watch a movie one weekend night and you hear it go off 48 times during the movie. Unrelenting.... bing.... bing.... it went off while I was making this edit. Bing! Another unvaccinated person dead.
The entire MONTH of May, the vaccine death chime is silent, despite 20 million vaccinations, 10 per second.
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McLaren
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Joey & Touring Mars tmu, work in professions that deal closely with the virus, so we have at least 2 members who can & have shared first-hand knowledge on how to deal with the virus. Given the information shared about Dr. Malone as someone who had 1 breakthrough with mRNA technology decades ago and hasn't had anything to do with it since, I can feel comfortable trusting 2 people more who are actively involved over a doctor making the rounds in the media only b/c he supports their anti-vaccine narrative more than for his actual expertise in the field.
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- GTP_Cyborg
^ Not sure what "tmu" means, but thanks for bringing me a bit up to speed on Joey and Mars. Regardless, there are virologists on both sides of the argument.
Danoff: I wasn't saying that as a hard fact. Your very linking of an article that says "nearly all" is enough to dismiss your argument in the same way everyone else here is dismissing anything anti-vax with science behind it just because they don't agree with it. There doesn't need to be a majority, or even a near 50-50 split, for a point to be worthy of valid questioning. That's what science is, after all. Choose your own risk, is all I'm saying: a reasonably healthy person having a minuscule chance of dying from the virus, or anyone having a minuscule chance of dying from the vaccine.
www.cdc.gov
Scroll through all the "yes yes, it's generally safe, millions of people got the shot and didn't die, yada yada...." and get to their list of serious problems some people experienced afterward. It doesn't matter how rare it is, it's f'd up that anyone would dismiss those human deaths and serious illnesses as unimportant - especially when it's the pro-vax crowd who's doing it, while simultaneously railing on the anti-vaxxers for saying the virus itself is killing a relatively small number of people.
As for Pfizer not killing people... that's a whole 'nother, larger debate, featuring all sorts of TV commercials letting you know about all the money you're qualified to receive in compensation.
Anyway, there was a post I saw in my skimming of this thread that brought up something along the lines of, 'Anti-vaxxers are getting off on the vaccinated being recommended to wear masks again. Well, it's not about protecting them, it's about protecting YOU.'
So, what of the idea - mentioned in that first Malone video I posted - that masks (and lockdowns, and social distancing, and probably the vaccine) - are a large part of what's forcing these new variants into existence? That the original virus had no problem infecting us, but it has a propensity to infect and therefore is having to evolve to figure out ways to get around all these protective measures?
Danoff: I wasn't saying that as a hard fact. Your very linking of an article that says "nearly all" is enough to dismiss your argument in the same way everyone else here is dismissing anything anti-vax with science behind it just because they don't agree with it. There doesn't need to be a majority, or even a near 50-50 split, for a point to be worthy of valid questioning. That's what science is, after all. Choose your own risk, is all I'm saying: a reasonably healthy person having a minuscule chance of dying from the virus, or anyone having a minuscule chance of dying from the vaccine.
Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination
Rare instances of adverse events following COVID-19 vaccinations have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.
www.cdc.gov
Scroll through all the "yes yes, it's generally safe, millions of people got the shot and didn't die, yada yada...." and get to their list of serious problems some people experienced afterward. It doesn't matter how rare it is, it's f'd up that anyone would dismiss those human deaths and serious illnesses as unimportant - especially when it's the pro-vax crowd who's doing it, while simultaneously railing on the anti-vaxxers for saying the virus itself is killing a relatively small number of people.
As for Pfizer not killing people... that's a whole 'nother, larger debate, featuring all sorts of TV commercials letting you know about all the money you're qualified to receive in compensation.
Anyway, there was a post I saw in my skimming of this thread that brought up something along the lines of, 'Anti-vaxxers are getting off on the vaccinated being recommended to wear masks again. Well, it's not about protecting them, it's about protecting YOU.'
So, what of the idea - mentioned in that first Malone video I posted - that masks (and lockdowns, and social distancing, and probably the vaccine) - are a large part of what's forcing these new variants into existence? That the original virus had no problem infecting us, but it has a propensity to infect and therefore is having to evolve to figure out ways to get around all these protective measures?
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Danoff
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You're equating minuscule with minuscule. You shouldn't. They're very different.
Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination
Rare instances of adverse events following COVID-19 vaccinations have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.
Scroll through all the "yes yes, it's generally safe, millions of people got the shot and didn't die, yada yada...." and get to their list of serious problems some people experienced afterward. It doesn't matter how rare it is, it's f'd up that anyone would dismiss those human deaths and serious illnesses as unimportant - especially when it's the pro-vax crowd who's doing it, while simultaneously railing on the anti-vaxxers for saying the virus itself is killing a relatively small number of people.
How many people are we talking about dying from a covid vaccine? 3 or 4? In a year? Why would you equate that, in any fashion, with the number of unvaccinated people who died of covid TODAY (over 1000 in the US)?
The death rate today is far less than what it was before the vaccine (~4k/day). So... the vaccine is good. Even better when you consider it's almost entirely unvaccinated people who are at risk of death anymore.
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McLaren
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Joey D
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Less than 7,000 deaths have been reported out of 393 million doses, which works out to be a fatality rate of .0019%. For allergic reactions, 2-5 per million could experience some sort of reaction. 44 people out of the 14 million J & J vaccine doses had thrombocytopenia syndrome. 2 have been reported with mRNA vaccines. 1,339 people have reported myocarditis after the mRNA vaccine.
Your risk of adverse reaction or death is very, very small. Just like anything though, the likelihood is never zero.
As for why your sister got leg pain? Aches and pains are an immune response. I could barely walk after my vaccines because of joint pain, some Tylenol fixed me right up though.
As @McLaren pointed out, I actually work in healthcare. I'm not a doctor, but I work on the data management and electronic medical record side of things. I've been on our COVID task force since March 2020 and it's been more or less my only job since then. I know more about COVID than I care too and while I'm not medical, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of it. Someone like @Touring Mars or @Famine will know more of the science related to COVID though, so I'd listen to them over me. But since last October ( 🤬 me, it's been nearly a year) I've spent countless hours of my life dedicated to vaccine rollout, hesitancy, and logistics.
Malone isn't creditable at all and has been caught spreading misinformation. This article from The Atlantic (language warning with some of the quotes) does a good job explaining why too. Malone's accomplishments are way overblown with regards to mRNA and his claim of inventing is a downright lie. The only thing I can find that touts his achievements is a rambling paper written by his wife. A Reuters fact check looks at one of Malone's latest crackpot theories too, and not surprisingly found it to be bunk.
You are, of course, free to believe what you want to, but I would plead that you look at sources from various reputable places. Some YouTube channel isn't reputable. Places like Reuters and AP will be reputable, as are many scientific publications. Be wary of "pre-prints" since they typically haven't been peer-reviewed, but oftentimes do give insight into what a study could show.
And of course, there's more to ivermectin than as a horse dewormer. Most studies with it have had some pretty big limitations. As far as I know, the only real study with it regarding how it interacts with SARS-CoV-2 was with monkeys and it required a dose that was much higher than what is safe for humans. Was it worth investigating in the beginning? Yes. Is it a legitimate treatment option now? Nope, not for COVID. If you have Chikungunya Fever, river blindness, scabies, or lice, it's likely going to work like a charm.
This is true, however not dying is a pretty low bar with COVID. The real issue with the virus is long-COVID and other effects that you can get. Long-term neurological, cardiovascular, and respiratory issues are common enough where any reasonably healthy person should want to avoid COVID like...uhhh...the plague? My dad and brother-in-law had COVID over the winter and they're still not fully recovered from it. A co-worker had it over a year ago and had their lungs so badly damaged that they can't even ride a bike anymore, but before COVID they routinely competed in 100+ mile bike races. Obviously, this is anecdotal, but if you're truly interested in finding out more, I can pull some studies out of the research database I have access to and see if they're published online anywhere.
Every time someone is infected, there's a chance for a positive mutation to occur. It's the basic foundation of evolution. Any living organism can either relocate, adapt, or die when faced with something new to its environment. If more people were vaccinated, the infection rate would plummet and the immune system would kill off the virus. This would reduce the chances for it to mutate and with any luck, it'd completely die off and go extinct.
This is a really basic summary of it though, while I know about evolution, my in-depth understanding sort of stops with humans.
Danoff
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I think this is slightly misleading, I believe that's all deaths, many of which will not be attributed to the vaccine. The linked website says 3 deaths are actually attributed to the vaccine (J&J), however I think that number is old (it says May), I think there has been at least 1 additional.
"Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 363 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through August 23, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,968 reports of death (0.0019%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths pdf icon[1.4 MB, 40 pages]."
The 3 deaths are discussed in that last link.
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- 2,833
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- GTP_Cyborg
McLaren, I'm saying exactly what I said: that I'm okay with the risk, because I see both options as the same level of risk for myself. If covid ****s me up, it ****s me up, but at least it was my choice of what to be potentially ****ed up by. The difference, in my view, is that in taking the vaccine I'd be guaranteeing that something questionable is in my body, whereas I could just strike lucky with the virus and never pick it up at all (no, I'm not actually expecting that). But I haven't worn a mask once in probably a couple months now, and before then I never wore it properly (at least not for 10-plus-hour shifts at work; a few minutes in a store wasn't a bother) because I honestly just didn't care about the whole issue, and my job for more than a decade now has me in a crowded building every day, of course in close contact with many people who also weren't wearing masks. I had zero confidence in the mask doing anything given my situation. I'd be very surprised if I haven't picked up the virus yet, but as I also never cared to get tested, I wouldn't know. I did go to a 4th of July party with family where four others got it - they only experienced flu-like symptoms; I'm pretty sure two of them were vaccinated, but this isn't a topic I'm about to get into with family. Still, I've yet to experience symptoms of more than the seasonal allergies I seem to have picked up about five years ago.
I never believed, said, or meant to imply that I think the vaccine isn't helping in the grand scheme of things. Nobody who pays even a little bit of attention to the news can deny that deaths and hospitalizations are down since it's been distributed. I'm merely bringing up points in an effort to figure this all out to decide what to do for myself, and try to figure out which information I might be able to trust - and trust is a big issue for me. Even the CDC I'm kind of iffy on.
I never believed, said, or meant to imply that I think the vaccine isn't helping in the grand scheme of things. Nobody who pays even a little bit of attention to the news can deny that deaths and hospitalizations are down since it's been distributed. I'm merely bringing up points in an effort to figure this all out to decide what to do for myself, and try to figure out which information I might be able to trust - and trust is a big issue for me. Even the CDC I'm kind of iffy on.
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- 5,588
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- ryzno
While I agree with you, they aren't gonna agree with you.
I don't believe the it's to protect other people narrative. It's to make sure you don't die if you catch it. It's already been said you can still spread it even if vaccinated.
I honestly don't think people should get it if they don't want it but at least wear the damn mask and wear it properly.(wasn't directed at you)
I'm sure this post is gonna catch flack here and I'm gonna wake up to 18 thousand quotes but I hope you get what I mean.
As an aside, I haven't gotten the flu shot since my school years. I don't plan on getting any Rona boosters after the 2nd. That said as much as I'd love to die, Rona ain't the way I wanna go.
I'd prefer my foot shoving the pedal to the metal and sending it with a smile on my face.
Much love Honda brother.
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- 2,677
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- Outspacer
Well why don't you take up the challenge I laid out in that post? Take at look at the 'paper' Malone was supporting and try to convince us that it isn't complete nonsense. To do that you'll have to show that the claims a) are based on actual scientific studies, and b) are not misrepresenting the studies they purport to be based on. Come back when you can do that for even one of the main claims, because surely supporting nonsense would destroy anyone's credibility.
You seem to have no problem dismissing the vast majority of the world's scientists in favour of this one. How do you justify that?
You are the one making claims here, so it's you that needs to bring proof - an 'appeal to authority' citing Malone is not proof, regardless of credibility. This "random video game forum commenter" challenges people to go and do some proper verification/investigation of their own.
"Sus" is just shorthand for the above. We've seen these baseless claims before.
Well if your presumption that it's "questionable" is false (which, btw, is what all the data supports after more than 4.5 billion doses), then you've made the wrong choice. As you say, you are far more likely than not going to catch COVID at some point, particularly if others around you don't wear masks - you might as well assume that you will catch it when thinking about the relative risks.
The risk of death from COVID, at any adult age, is massively higher than dying from the vaccine. The risk of serious ill-effects lasting more than a week are even-more-massively higher with COVID than with vaccine (and not as age-dependant as death). It's not "the same level of risk" and it doesn't care how you see it.
That's true, but at a much lesser rate than if not vaccinated. Vaccines still give more than 50% protection against getting infected, and reduce the length of time someone is infectious for by almost half. Overall about four times less spread seems to be a plausible estimate based on that.
- 11,300
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- eran0004
I assume it’s based on studies of vaccination rates between democrats and republicans, rates of Covid deaths between vaccinated and unvaccinated and the number of deaths per week. There’s some uncertainty because of random events, but probably close enough for one significant figure.
Edit:
With the input data below I get 1570 deaths per week for Biden voters and 7600 deaths per week for Trump voters. 4.9 times higher death rate among Trump voters than among Biden voters. With one significant figure that's 8000 deaths per week for Trump voters and 5 times higher death rate.
Vaccination rates:
Biden voters: 91.5%
Trump voters 50%
Election result:
Biden: 51.3%
Trump 46.9%
Share of covid deaths:
Vaccinated: 0.5%
Unvaccinated: 99.5%
Covid deaths per day in the US (7 day avg): 1346
Vaccination rates among voters:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/me...demographic-breakdown-vaccinated-u-s-n1277514
Vaccination rates and covid deaths:
https://theconversation.com/us-is-s...d-hospitalizations-reflect-this-divide-164460
There are a lot of flaws with my calculation though, for example I assume that everyone who died also voted in the election and that the population is homogenous (meaning the election result was the same in every county). I also assume that the number of vaccinated people is constant (the higher the number of vaccinated, the bigger their share of covid deaths will be). So, your actual mileage may vary.
Edit 2: I just noticed he said "every ten days"
. I guess that might account for the fact that not everyone voted in the election?Edit 3: He used poll data showing that 25% of republicans are unvaccinated vs 5% of democrats, then a figure saying that 1000 unvaccinated people are dying per day. I assume his calculation is 10*1000*0.25/(0.25+0.05) = 8333 for republicans and 10*1000*0.05*(0.25+0.05) = 1667 for democrats. If that's the case then he may have forgotten about independent voters and people just not voting at all. I also don't know where the 25% vs 5% figure comes from.
Edit 4: Reading the twitter comments it's interesting to see that a lot of people interpreted the tweet as political, as if the intention was some kind of attack on republicans. I think it's the opposite, that the intention is to give them a kick in the butt to work harder to get the vaccination rates up. The 8000+ figure is a bit sketchy, but the 5:1 death ratio for republicans vs democrats is probably somewhere in the ballpark of reality.
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