Creation vs. Evolution

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bobnsmith
Newton's Laws of Motion are framed in relation to mass only. I don't see how they can be applied to anything but matter.

Do not confuse mass with matter. Also, read the post directly above yours I originally addressed to keef.

As a follow-up, allow me to ask you a question... What IS the universe?


bobnsmith
Some galaxies do appear to be "moving" away from us faster than light due to expansion.

The key phrase being "appear to be". Hence the phrase "relativity" - from our point of view it seems to happen, though actually isn't.

Common Misconceptions about the Expansion of the Universe
Notice that, according to Hubble's law, the universe does not expand at a single speed. Some galaxies recede from us at 1,000 kilometers per second, others (those twice as distant) at 2,000 km/s, and so on. In fact, Hubble's law predicts that galaxies beyond a certain distance, known as the Hubble distance, recede faster than the speed of light. For the measured value of the Hubble constant, this distance is about 14 billion light-years.

Does this prediction of faster-than-light galaxies mean that Hubble's law is wrong? Doesn't Einstein's special theory of relativity say that nothing can have a velocity exceeding that of light? This question has confused generations of students. The solution is that special relativity applies only to "normal" velocities--motion through space. The velocity in Hubble's law is a recession velocity caused by the expansion of space, not a motion through space. It is a general relativistic effect and is not bound by the special relativistic limit. Having a recession velocity greater than the speed of light does not violate special relativity. It is still true that nothing ever overtakes a light beam.
 
That makes sense, Famine. But I got stuck on a sort of unrelated question while I was pondering: If light beams are going through space, which they are, but the space is expanding faster than that light is moving, do the light rays/waves/particles get stretched out, almost like they're "connected" to the space somehow? Or is a blank, lightless spot left at the destination of the ray since space put more space in front of the ray that hasn't been reached by the ray? Or is there so many different angles and directions of light rays in space that a blank spot is impossible to find? Light is coming from every direction, so that may be plausible.
 
keef
That makes sense, Famine. But I got stuck on a sort of unrelated question while I was pondering: If light beams are going through space, which they are, but the space is expanding faster than that light is moving

Got to stop you right there. It isn't.

You need to separate "the universe" from "the visible universe". You see, we're also moving via expansion, away from things so there's a point (the Hubble distance) at which we can no longer see things. Someone halfway between us and that point can see both us and things past this point to a distance equal to the distance between us, but they also have a visible universe limited by the Hubble constant.

Things aren't actually moving faster than light, they just appear to be because of how far they are away, the direction in which they're moving and the direction in which we are moving - key word - relative to them.


Trick question again - if I point two lasers in opposite directions to each other for a year, each laser beam travels a distance of one light year. How far apart are the ends of the beams from each other?
 
Famine

Trick question again - if I point two lasers in opposite directions to each other for a year, each laser beam travels a distance of one light year. How far apart are the ends of the beams from each other?

So far I've got three answers.

0, 1 lightyear, and 2 lightyears.
 
Well, if I use danoff's numbers we can say the startng points of the beams are 0 lightyears apart, the terminal point of one ray is 1 lightyear way from the starting point of the other ray, and the terminal points of both rays are 2 lightyears apart.
But that doesn't sound very scientific. It's either one of those easier-than-you-expected-huh? trick questions or it involves a principle I can't visualize. Or danoff's answers could be completely wrong.
I would say that, if you're just talking about the terminal points, if you were standing at one of those points the other point would appear to be 2 light years away. They aren't moving, so they wouldn't appear further than they actually are.
So am I thinking too much, not enough, or about the wrong thing?
 
Was trying to reply last night but computer crashed..

keef
Anyway, is this expanding "space" what scientists call "dark matter"?

I am very sure it isn't. As far as I know dark matter is an invention to try and explain away an apprent lack of mass in the universe. The theories say the universe hasn't enough mass to look as it does, and dark matter is a suggestion that some matter is somehow hidden.

I understand the part about mass not moving, but, if they aren't, there isn't really isn't a rational way to explain what they are doing according to the normal definition of "move", which, of many, is "a change in position."

It just depends on the definition of movement. If movement is defined as change in position through space then distance increase due to expansion isn't movement. If space is expanding then the distance between two objects will increase without them actually changing position in space. For example if you half blow up a balloon and draw dots on it, then blow the balloon up more. The surface area of the balloon expands and the dots get further away from each other. But none of them have actually moved on the surface of the balloon. That's an analogy I heard for the big bang.

One reason why they think space is expanding, and not matter moving away from each other, is that objects further away are moving away from us faster. That fits an expansion model. Also I believe this is the case wherever you stand in the universe - all objects appear to be moving away faster the further away they are.

we can assume that it was one mass, we could assume that mass exploded, somehow, and that the now seperate masses were moving away from that explosion point.

The reason it is thought to be expansion and not an explosion is that there is a center to an explosion, and there doesn't appear to be a center to the universe. Much like the expansion of the surface of a balloon has no center point on the surface of a balloon.
 
Famine
Do not confuse mass with matter. Also, read the post directly above yours I originally addressed to keef.

Mass is a measurement of the "amount" of matter. Any matter will have mass, or else it is not matter at all.

As a follow-up, allow me to ask you a question... What IS the universe?

Everything

The key phrase being "appear to be". Hence the phrase "relativity" - from our point of view it seems to happen, though actually isn't.

But it is. The distance between some galaxies is increasing faster than c.

Notice that, according to Hubble's law, the universe does not expand at a single speed. Some galaxies recede from us at 1,000 kilometers per second, others (those twice as distant) at 2,000 km/s, and so on. In fact, Hubble's law predicts that galaxies beyond a certain distance, known as the Hubble distance, recede faster than the speed of light. For the measured value of the Hubble constant, this distance is about 14 billion light-years.

Does this prediction of faster-than-light galaxies mean that Hubble's law is wrong? Doesn't Einstein's special theory of relativity say that nothing can have a velocity exceeding that of light? This question has confused generations of students. The solution is that special relativity applies only to "normal" velocities--motion through space. The velocity in Hubble's law is a recession velocity caused by the expansion of space, not a motion through space. It is a general relativistic effect and is not bound by the special relativistic limit. Having a recession velocity greater than the speed of light does not violate special relativity. It is still true that nothing ever overtakes a light beam.

This supports what I said. The increase of distance between two masses via expansion is not movement through space and so it is not constrained by lightspeed as real movement of matter is.
 
bobnsmith
Mass is a measurement of the "amount" of matter. Any matter will have mass, or else it is not matter at all.

Then please explain to me the existence of zero rest-mass particles - and also explain how light can be affected by gravity.

Relativity allows for the interchangeability of energy and mass so that energy can have mass whilst not being comprised of matter. This means that certian particles, like photons, have only a relativistic mass (one they only have when travelling at the speed of light) and not an invariant mass.


bobnsmith
Everything

Correct (sort of). Now the follow-up... If the universe is everything, what is it that is expanding?

bobnsmith
But it is. The distance between some galaxies is increasing faster than c.

This supports what I said. The increase of distance between two masses via expansion is not movement through space and so it is not constrained by lightspeed as real movement of matter is.

As with the example of the lasers I posed to keef, it's really not as simple as that.

To us, objects (let's refer to one as "object alpha") past the Hubble distance may appear to be receding faster than c - that is relative to us, object alpha appears to be moving faster than the speed of light.

Place someone (call him person beta) halfway between us and the Hubble distance and both object alpha AND us appear to be moving slower than the speed of light - that is relative to person beta, object alpha and Earth appear to be moving slower than the speed of light. In fact the sum of our expansion velocities away from person beta will be about 0.2c, much slower than the speed of light.

What is actually happening is not that object alpha is moving away from us faster than the speed of light, or that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light, but that from where we are standing, they appear to be.

Special Relativity forbids objects from travelling faster than the speed of light, but General Relativity allows the perception that objects are travelling faster than the speed of light. The galaxies to which you refer are not actually moving (through expansion) at the speed of light at all - just we think they are.


danoff's answer to the laser question is correct - but then pretty much any number would also be correct. Relative to us, the light beams would be 2 light years apart. Relative to each other, they'd be 1 light year apart. Relative to an object at the Hubble distance in a 1 year old universe, they'd be an infinite distance apart. That's what Relativity is.
 
Famine
danoff's answer to the laser question is correct - but then pretty much any number would also be correct. Relative to us, the light beams would be 2 light years apart. Relative to each other, they'd be 1 light year apart. Relative to an object at the Hubble distance in a 1 year old universe, they'd be an infinite distance apart. That's what Relativity is.
Thought it was something along those lines - i.e. it depends upon the viewpoint of the observer... interesting stuff Famine and bobnsmith... 👍

-----

A significant development in the fields of evolutionary biology and paleontology reported today, Tiktaalik roseae provides yet more clear evidence of a transitional form between fish and land animals...

Published in this week's Nature, a highly relevant example of how the fossil record continues to build a stronger and stronger case for evolution...

(For the full articles, subscription to Nature is required...)

Newspaper article... (The Guardian)

 
Touring Mars
A significant development in the fields of evolutionary biology and paleontology reported today, Tiktaalik roseae provides yet more clear evidence of a transitional form between fish and land animals...

Fox has some good pics here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190711,00.html

This is a helluva find.



EDIT: Nice graphic from the New York Times -

0406natwebfossil1br.jpg
 
I think this is where evolutionists can say "checkmate!" if they feel like it.

Although, this chess game was always unfair, with the outcome as inevitable as the sun rising. Evolution wins every single time... and never using either bishop at that! :sly:

Yet, amusingly, this game will get played out forever, repeating itself – some people just don't know when to concede. It's kinda like me playing Kasporov and getting beaten a million times. Yet somehow coming back for more (whilst all that time never doubting my superiority once)... :sly:

Who wants to debate Famine? It's kinda the same thing.

Although, of course, we never really needed this "find" to help evolution's validity (there being more than enough evidence to draw from), but its always nice to get a "checkmate!" moment that even lay-people can understand. Its a fish. A fish that walks, kinda. Kinda like a slap in the face with a wet fish. Easy to understand.
 
Zardoz


[sarcasm] Nope, sorry. God created the fish, then he killed off the fish and created the half-fish-half-land animal, then he killed them off and created the walking one. [/sarcasm]

I'm missing some of the significance here though, we already knew about alligators. I mean granted, this is the progressive evolution of a fish into a walking creature. But why is that any more convincing than the existance of an animal that can do both?
 
It fills in a "hole" between finned and limbed creatures.

It has a finlike limb. Or a limblike fin. It shows one of those intermediary stages that hardcore Creationists always claim we don't have.
 
Famine
...It shows one of those intermediary stages that hardcore Creationists always claim we don't have.

I'm going to try to remember to cruise the Creationist sites this weekend and see how they try to spin this one.

They'll have their work cut out for them, won't they?
 
Famine
It fills in a "hole" between finned and limbed creatures.

It has a finlike limb. Or a limblike fin. It shows one of those intermediary stages that hardcore Creationists always claim we don't have.

I understand that it fills a hole in the evolutionary chain. But we already have plenty of animals out there that have limblike fins right? So why were those examples not convincing?

I'm not sure this is going to be any more convincing to creationists. If god created alligators as they were, god could have just as easily created this link. Granted, I'm starting to think their God is out of his mind.
 
James2097
I think this is where evolutionists can say "checkmate!" if they feel like it.

Although, this chess game was always unfair, with the outcome as inevitable as the sun rising. Evolution wins every single time... and never using either bishop at that! :sly:
:lol: Brilliant... (that joke must have taken you all knight... 👍)

danoff
I understand that it fills a hole in the evolutionary chain. But we already have plenty of animals out there that have limblike fins right? So why were those examples not convincing?

I'm not sure this is going to be any more convincing to creationists. If god created alligators as they were, god could have just as easily created this link. Granted, I'm starting to think their God is out of his mind.
You're absolutely right.... sadly - although it does help to shoot down the more sophisticated critics of evolution theory who claim that gaps in the fossil record (a key argument) somehow 'disproves' evolution.... As a discovery/find, it is amazing anyway, regardless of the implications either way.... ironically, it is the creationists who gain nothing from this find... with the argument that it is 'just another stand-alone' species (like we all must be if you agree with creationist logic), then it is really nothing special at all.... but in the evolutionary context that this find represents a transitional form (and of such major significance), it truly is something special....
 
Famine
Then please explain to me the existence of zero rest-mass particles - and also explain how light can be affected by gravity.

I don't believe zero rest mass particles are matter. Photons are not matter for example. Photons have no mass and are not directly affected by gravity. Light appears to bend due to gravity curving space. The light travels in a straight line, but it is the coordinate sytem that has been bent and so a straight line appears bent.

Famine
Relativity allows for the interchangeability of energy and mass so that energy can have mass whilst not being comprised of matter

I know energy can be converted to mass and vice-versa but I have never heard that energy can have mass.

Famine
Correct (sort of). Now the follow-up... If the universe is everything, what is it that is expanding?

the 3 dimensions of space

Famine
As with the example of the lasers I posed to keef, it's really not as simple as that. To us, objects (let's refer to one as "object alpha") past the Hubble distance may appear to be receding faster than c - that is relative to us, object alpha appears to be moving faster than the speed of light.

Place someone (call him person beta) halfway between us and the Hubble distance and both object alpha AND us appear to be moving slower than the speed of light - that is relative to person beta, object alpha and Earth appear to be moving slower than the speed of light. In fact the sum of our expansion velocities away from person beta will be about 0.2c, much slower than the speed of light.

I don't disagree with any of that, but then that concerns masses moving through space and I am talking about something different. I am talking about the space between the masses expanding and they are not moving through space at all.

Famine
What is actually happening is not that object alpha is moving away from us faster than the speed of light, or that the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light, but that from where we are standing, they appear to be.

Expansion will cause the distance between some masses to increase faster than the speed of light. The further masses are away from each other, the fatster the distance between them will increase. Just as the further two dots are away on the surface of a balloon, the faster the distance between them will increase when you inflate the balloon.

Famine
Special Relativity forbids objects from travelling faster than the speed of light

That is the thing. I don't count the act of expansion of space between two masses to mean those two masses are travelling.

Famine
The galaxies to which you refer are not actually moving (through expansion) at the speed of light at all - just we think they are.

Yes I agree the galaxies are not moving through space due to expansion - but the space between them is expanding, which means the distance between them will increase whether or not they are moving through space.
 
danoff
I understand that it fills a hole in the evolutionary chain. But we already have plenty of animals out there that have limblike fins right? So why were those examples not convincing?

half the significance is the age of the fossil. The Transitional Fossil FAQ on talk.origins has a section devoted to fish to amphibean transitional fossils. It was last updated in '97: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part1a.html#amph1

There is one gap mentioned in the known fossil sequence on that page. It reads:
GAP: Ideally, of course, we want an entire skeleton from the middle Late Devonian, not just limb fragments. Nobody's found one yet.

This is precisely the gap that was filled.

I'm not sure this is going to be any more convincing to creationists. If god created alligators as they were, god could have just as easily created this link. Granted, I'm starting to think their God is out of his mind.

Of course it isn't convincing to anyone that doesn't already accept evolution. There is far better evidence that exists elsewhere and if they don't accept that then this is hardly going to change their mind.
 
bobnsmith, Famine may get annoyed at you for two reasons:

1. You're smart.

and

2. You've mucked up his indigo (not purple!) text colour.

–––––
TouringMars
Brilliant... (that joke must have taken you all knight... )
Just feeling like the court chesster today. :dunce:
I can't follow this spacey-whatsit, I'd rather remain a pawn in the game.
 
Touring Mars
You're absolutely right.... sadly - although it does help to shoot down the more sophisticated critics of evolution theory who claim that gaps in the fossil record (a key argument) somehow 'disproves' evolution

They pretend they are objective and would accept evolution if only the fossils to fill the gaps existed. But as soon as such a fossil is found, all of a sudden it doesn't mean anything anymore. It's just a type of fish/amphibean/whatever they say.
 
James2097
bobnsmith, Famine may get annoyed at you for two reasons:

1. You're smart.

No, he definitely knows more physics than me. I can't grasp relativity at all and that's pretty important. I might be wrong on the other stuff too. If so then at least I'll learn something. Having a disagreement online is probably the best way to learn stuff.
 
James2097
bobnsmith, Famine may get annoyed at you for two reasons:

1. You're smart.

and

2. You've mucked up his indigo (not purple!) text colour.

I'm not going to eat the guy for asking questions!

Mind you, nobody told him to "Watch out for Famine"... :lol:


bobnsmith
I don't believe zero rest mass particles are matter. Photons are not matter for example. Photons have no mass and are not directly affected by gravity. Light appears to bend due to gravity curving space. The light travels in a straight line, but it is the coordinate sytem that has been bent and so a straight line appears bent.

Now isn't that a curious thing... Earlier on you said that the expansion of space is unrelated to Newton's Laws of Motion because space doesn't have mass. But now gravity - a function of mass - is curving space. Why would gravity curve space, when gravity is a function of mass?

F = Gx(m1m2/r2)

(where F = the force exerted, G = the gravitational constant, m1 = mass of object 1, m2 = mass of object 2 and r = distance between the two objects)

What you've got now is gravity, based on mass, bending space, which doesn't have any, but not light, which does but only when it is moving...


As you can tell, this particular area of physics gets quite complicated. The truth is that gravity does bend space and this directly infers that, since space can be bent by force, Newton's Laws of Motion can be applied to it. However that isn't the whole truth, but the whole truth is totally bizarre and unwieldy and includes the notion that it isn't gravity that curves space, but curved space that creates gravity and may or may not involve gravitational waves and/or a particle known as a graviton which again has zero rest mass, like the photon, but which exerts a force directly opposite to its direction of travel, requiring a spin of 2. Or, in English, gravity requires mass but also massless particles.

I did warn you it got complicated! :lol:


bobnsmith
I know energy can be converted to mass and vice-versa but I have never heard that energy can have mass.

It really depends on what you mean by "mass".

Certain particles have no mass, or at least no "invariant mass". Unless they are moving, then they DO have mass, or at least "relativistic mass". But they have to be moving very, very quickly. How do they acquire this mass once moving? The energy of moving at high speed.

Because energy and mass are interchangeable mass has energy and energy has mass.


bobnsmith
the 3 dimensions of space

Not quite. There's four dimensions, because space isn't space at all - it's space-time. No time = no space, no space = no time. They are inextricably linked. There's actually ELEVEN dimensions in total, but a couple of those at least aren't in our universe, but rather the multiverse.

Still, I was leading you down the path that we've now jumped to in the first part - since space expands and gravity affects space, Laws of Motion are applicable to the expansion of the universe and, in accordance with that, without a force to slow it down, the expansion of space cannot slow down.


bobnsmith
I don't disagree with any of that, but then that concerns masses moving through space and I am talking about something different. I am talking about the space between the masses expanding and they are not moving through space at all.

bobnsmith
Expansion will cause the distance between some masses to increase faster than the speed of light. The further masses are away from each other, the fatster the distance between them will increase. Just as the further two dots are away on the surface of a balloon, the faster the distance between them will increase when you inflate the balloon.

bobnsmith
That is the thing. I don't count the act of expansion of space between two masses to mean those two masses are travelling.

bobnsmith
Yes I agree the galaxies are not moving through space due to expansion - but the space between them is expanding, which means the distance between them will increase whether or not they are moving through space.

Right... :D

The issue is pure relativity. The distance between us and them isn't increasing faster than the speed of light, though from our point of view it is. Person Beta thinks that the distance between us and them is increasing at a much slower rate because he is much closer to both objects and the expansion effect, which you are correct to say appears to be directly proportional to the distance between any two given objects, is significantly reduced.

As I said, Special Relativity forbids the motion of objects from exceeding the speed of light, but General Relativity predicts that the appearance of the motion of objects CAN exceed the speed of light, though actually they aren't. This is the stumbling block - expansion of space between the two objects gives the appearance of them moving apart faster than the speed of light from a point of view but from a different point of view the appearance is that expansion of space between the two objects is much, much slower than the speed of light. Relative to the position of the observer.
 
Famine
I'm not going to eat the guy for asking questions!
I know! Just joking... I needed something slightly serious to say for point one, so the second point (the indigo colour) sounded really petty and silly in comparison. Everything is to support the tone of the gag Famine!

Besides, I said "Famine may get annoyed....", importantly leaving open the possibility that I can't in fact, read your mind – which would be quite the experience :scared:... I think I'd have to be really strong (I'm sure there is a cleverer adjective than this) in the brain like that professor guy from X-Men (the one in the wheelchair:tup: ) or else I'd collapse from information overload. There are only so many porn images of the DB9 I can handle - and believe me - its a lot!

Ok, back on topic:

Regarding the FISH – it would be quite an amazingly sadistic and devious God to plant this stuff on us as a gag (pretty much I.D.'s only remaining argument. Funnily, this would be a God I'd actually like – better than this boring holier-than-the-golden-donut (Famine will get the reference) God we all know about, that's for sure).
So, basically, God isn't a total bastard (although Jesus is as far as Joe is concerned) going by the teachings of the religious folk (like the Pope and underling dudes) who actually run the God shop (and his substantial spin-off franchises). We understand God is supposed to be a goodie. The FISH TRIPPIN' thing goes against everything we understand God to be. Basically, it would be one helluva good joke, which I'd be happy with, but religious folk who dictate who God is wouldn't be so happy. So God doesn't exist cause the fish would be too much of a great April fools gag.

CASE DONE AND DUSTED. 👍 :)
Evolution wins because God doesn't have THAT good of a sense of humour.
 
Dude, that was complete geniouscide. Absolutely hilarious! You should send that idea as a script to Family Guy. I wouldn't doubt that the fish/crocagator makes an appearance on the show soon.
 
I have some relatives that I wish could move away from me at the speed of light. And if I could move away from them at the same time at the same speed over the same distance than my relatives would be traveling at twice the speed of light . Scotty beam me up .

Actually it would be relative only to the relatives .


Did you ever wonder why your car speedometer didnt calculate the spin of the earth and the velocity of earths orbit around the sun when it determined how fst you are actually going ?


Some cop will get rich off that ticket .


Scotty ....wake up you drunk ...I said BEAM me up moron ...you hit me again I'll throw yoour drunk moron butt off the bridge . Smack him for me Spock .
 
live4speed
Evolution is just a theory, it's not been proven, otherwise it wouldn't be a theory.

Saying that is like saying that Pythagoras' Theorem is only a theory. Evolution is a fact, as solid a fact as any scientific law, from the laws of thermodynamics to gravity. 'Evolution Theory' is the continuing development of a myraid of concepts that explain the facts of evolution. And for the record, evolution has been proven, many many times over. The fact that the proof has been contested (albeit totally unsuccessfully) by a fervent religious minority doesn't amke the proof any less solid. The proof lies in the fossil record, and more recently, in the genome of every living thing...

There's evidence to support either side's of the argument, but both rely on a level of faith to accept.
In the context of the debate about evolution, I totally disagree with both these statements. There is no evidence to support creationism, and there is abundant evidence to support evolution. And it doesn't require any level of faith to accept that evidence, just a sound background in basic science.


Why is there a common gene among women that suggests all women are related, suggesting a single parent?
Because all humans descented from a common ancestor? This is not only 'a theory', the human genome proves that it is a fact. The theory of common descent is the only rational explanation for the genetic similarities in all humans. What is more surprising is that we share the same genes as other creatures as well - suggesting (indeed proving) that all living things are descended from common ancestry at some point. (see the 'Tree Of Life' link in my 'evoltuon weblinks' in my sig...)

The idea of evolution require's an immense belife in chance
As danoff already said, this is not quite right. You surely accept that genetic mutations can and do happen, right? (the evidence for this is clear, from genetic illness to mutations that occur due to exposure to radiation etc.) This may indeed require a "belief in chance", but it is a well-founded 'belief', because 'chance mutations' can and do happen. Genetic variation brought about by random mutation is the driving force for evolution, but the process by which random mutations are either kept or discarded (natural selection) is completely non-random. A mutation that confers an advantage to an animal by it's very nature has a higher likelihood of survival than a mutation that either makes no difference (as the vast majority do) or confers a disadvantage. Only by grasping this fundamental concept does it become clear how evolution/natural selection does not require a reliance or belief in 'random chance'.

Swift
The challenge with evidence of evolution as the origin of man is that it's not complete. No scientist on earth would say it is either.
Quite right, but then again, it never will be 'complete' - but you have to give good science credit sooner or later...

Here is an analogy that I think sums up the situation with the 'incompleteness ' of the evidence supporting evolution, specifically the fossil record (but it also applies to genetics and other supporting evidences for evolution.)

In the beginning, when the first fossils were found, they only provided us with a tiny snapshot of what lifeforms looked like in prehistoric times. This is analogous to the images on the left of the diagram below... as more fossil evidence came to light, we start to build a slightly better picture - just like adding more pixels to an image, the more information allows us to build a clearer picture of what extinct species looked like and how they are/were related.

In recent years, a mountain of genetic evidence has helped to 'fill the gaps', until we now have such a clear picture of how the Theory of Common Descent works, that we hardly need any more evidence to see the reality. Indeed, the image on the extreme right no longer needs many more pixels for it to be clear, but technically it is 'not complete' either. Now you could argue about which stage we are at - just how clear is the evidence for evolution? Therein lies the challenge to the evo-skeptics... do you dare to actually look at the evidence?

Resolution_illustration.png

The fact remains, that evidence will only continue to sharpen the image/improve our understanding of evolution - indeed every fossil or piece of amber containing an extinct insect or every analysis of genomic DNA will serve to fill in these gaps. There comes a time when a scientist has to say, 'how much clearer do you need the image to be?' Opinion and 'beliefs' aside, I'd argue that the weight of evidence behind evolution paints a clear as day picture that the Theory of Common Descent is not only a valid theory, but indeed the only plausible explanation for the origin of species. The wonder of it, however, is that it is so simple and logical... far from being complex or hard to understand, nature has a tendency to find the 'path of least resistance'.
 
I think 1200 dpi would do for most creationists... along with the handprint and signature of Yahweh, Jehovah or Allah on it, in burning letters.

I still think it's ridiculous for religious people to argue over the how instead of the who, because in the end, no matter how life occured, the matter of who was responsible is the important part to them, right?

Wow... this thread is actually still alive! What a resurrection, TM! :lol:
 
Touring Mars

Just to add to this analogy - it is my opinion that people who seek to teach intelligent design or 'teach the controversy' are actively helping to reverse the process of scientific/rational learning, in effect obscuring the facts and creating doubt. There is absolutely no problem at all with debating the value and meaning of evidence. That is the scientific method. But the problem comes when the evidence is either totally ignored, misunderstood, disregarded or worse of all, deliberately misrepresented in order to further one's own pre-set agenda. If one is to create doubt in the minds of the inquisitive, one should atleast propose a reasonable hypothesis to replace that doubt with something more satisfactory. Unfortunately, this is not the case with the people who seek to banish evolution from the syllabus (or even ban the use of the word altogether!). ID theory offers nothing in the way of an alternative explanation. Yes, people do have genuine doubts about certain aspects of evolutionary theory, but is it wise to address these doubts by dropping the subject altogether?
 
Go to this link and read the info ..in a few days or years ...if you can absorb it all and its implications..you may be closer to understanding the evolution vs. creation argument or the argument for and against ID .

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml

Humans share DNA with almost everyhting that lives on earth...


http://www.genome.gov/10001772


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/SCIENCE96/


I realize this is science and all but if it helps some to come to grasps ..it can be found in book form at a library..those quaint places with those old paper and cardboard ojects that they decorate something called " shelves "...Google .."Library " I am sure you will find some quaint archival footage ..Lots of these " book ' objects still exist and ..get this ..I swear it BTW ..they will let you " borrow " them ..for ..FREE !!! I know it sounds really crazy..but I have done it and have not been arrested yet . BTW " borrow " means you have to bring them back after you " read " them . There's no key board or usb ports on the things so they unlike the PSP do not need batteries
they dont do anything but sit there..its like an interactive game with only one active participant..but there''s lots of words ..think of your browser pages ..now imagine you can turn them with your fingers..actually reach in a touch them..I know it sounds " Icky " but it really works ..in the old days thats what people actually did . Make believe youir like 30 or something and go for it . ( warning sarcasm drips can be harmfull to your keyboard ) .

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/TransgenicAnimals.html


http://www.syngenta.com/en/popups/view5.html


http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/8_14_99/fob1.htm

http://filebox.vt.edu/cals/cses/chagedor/Biotechnology.html

Baaaaa ....baaaaaaa ..:)

I see sheep...:)


Must be west Virginia ..:)
 
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