Creation vs. Evolution

[Earth]

Regardless, you have to admit that the more complicated the fossil history of humanity becomes, the more clear it is that we were not created directly by God.

This find simplifies the fossil history, it doesn't complicate it. It proves that the history of man is not a straightforward evolutionary march. So called different 'species' of man lived at the same time. And what does science consider different human species? Half a skull and fragments of jaw with slightly different molars are enough to claim a skeleton represents thousands of humans of a different species? they want to believe in evolution as much as we want to in God

Famine's theory is that creatures that evolved from one another co-habit for a time before the lesser one dies off. If that is a case, where are our ancestors? Where is cromagnum? I don't see Giraffes with knecks 1/3 as long as current ones. Shouldn't evolutionary ancestors of some modern creatures still be around ?

 

[Danoff]

This find simplifies the fossil history, it doesn't complicate it. It proves that the history of man is not a straightforward evolutionary march.

First sentence contradicts the second.

So called different 'species' of man lived at the same time. And what does science consider different human species? Half a skull and fragments of jaw with slightly different molars are enough to claim a skeleton represents thousands of humans of a different species? they want to believe in evolution as much as we want to in God

You only think it's a leap because you don't understand their analysis. You don't know enough about biology to conclude that skull fragments and jaw bones can't identify a separate species.

Famine's theory is that creatures that evolved from one another co-habit for a time before the lesser one dies off. If that is a case, where are our ancestors? Where is cromagnum? I don't see Giraffes with knecks 1/3 as long as current ones. Shouldn't evolutionary ancestors of some modern creatures still be around ?

Where's that popcorn?

 

[Swift]

I don't know. But I don't feel the need to come up with a story in the meantime.



Not following. You're saying that the new evidence that has been found regarding man's ancestors doesn't help prove that man didn't suddenly spring into existence as-is? The more variations of man that we find from our early days - the more obvious it becomes that we've evolved.

But it doesn't make it "obvious" that we evolved from a single cell that got hit by lightning one day.

 

[Danoff]

It clearly refutes the garden of eden concept - which should call into question all of genesis.

 

[Sureboss]

Where's that popcorn?

Somewhere amongst the pre-popcorn species...

 

[Swift]

It clearly refutes the garden of eden concept - which should call into question all of genesis.

That man was formed from the dust of the ground? How does it refute that concept? The only concept it challenges is whether or not God formed modern man as we appear today or let us evolve into what we now are. As I said before, we have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden. It could have been a few days or a several million years.

 

[TheCracker]

As I said before, we have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden. It could have been a few days or a several million years.

The Book of Jubilees seems to think it was 8 years and 4 months after creation.

 

[Danoff]

That man was formed from the dust of the ground? How does it refute that concept? The only concept it challenges is whether or not God formed modern man as we appear today or let us evolve into what we now are. As I said before, we have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden. It could have been a few days or a several million years.

Well, I happen to know how long they were in there, but that's a bit beside the point.

That our evolutionary tree includes dozens of different species of homonids, some branches of which end entirely, really damages the notion that we came from a couple of people created as they were from dust. I'm curious though, how do you envision the whole process?

- Adam+Eve = little more than monkeys
- dozens of species spring forth from Adam and Eve's offspring within let's say, 1000 years.
- 2000 years later homo-sapiens take over.
- The next 3000 years is quite literally history.

Is that it?

 

[Joey D]

I believe in God and I accept evolution...I don't have a conflicting view on it. Religion needs to stay with the times, theology changes constantly.

 

[Earth]

I believe in God and I accept evolution...I don't have a conflicting view on it. Religion needs to stay with the times, theology changes constantly.

Stay with the times as in accepting a constantly changing theory that denys the need for a creator and gives the glory of creation to blind random chance? **** no

They will never know exactly how and why we evolved and from what because we simply didn't so therefore the theory will remain a theory because it simply isn't true. There is missing links for a reason.

 

[Famine]

Stay with the times as in accepting a constantly changing theory that denys the need for a creator and gives the glory of creation to blind random chance? **** no

Why not?

We don't deny knowledge because it conflicts with predetermined ideas.

They will never know exactly how and why we evolved and from what because we simply didn't

All available evidence - note the "all" - says that your position is incorrect.

However, as more information becomes available this position may change.

Note that as more information becomes available, your position will not, regardless of the information...

so therefore the theory will remain a theory because it simply isn't true.

You need to read back over the thread, specifically the parts where we discussed what constitutes a "theory" and differentiates it from a "Law".

There is missing links for a reason.

Yes - the planet is over 4.5 billion years old and two thirds of it is underwater. We cannot possibly hope to recover every specimen of every form of life that has ever existed because some of it won't fossilise at all, some of the fossils will have been destroyed and a lot of the fossils that haven't been destroyed haven't been recovered because they are in unrecoverable positions.

That and the fact that the total of all different plant and animal species that have ever existed outnumber the sum total of humans who have ever existed - there's just not enough of us covering enough of the planet to uncover every fossil, even if there were satisfactory samples of every species that ever lived.

 

[Joey D]

Stay with the times as in accepting a constantly changing theory that denys the need for a creator and gives the glory of creation to blind random chance? **** no

They will never know exactly how and why we evolved and from what because we simply didn't so therefore the theory will remain a theory because it simply isn't true. There is missing links for a reason.

Who's to say God didn't guide evolution? Saying you accept evolution is not denying God...I really hate religious people like that, it gives us normal, thinking Christians a bad name. Science proves stuff, it's proving evolution, I just choose to accept God (or some supernatural being) guided everything along. Don't take the Bible word for word...it's just a large metaphor.

 

[Dead_Poetic]

Who's to say God didn't guide evolution? Saying you accept evolution is not denying God...I really hate religious people like that, it gives us normal, thinking Christians a bad name. Science proves stuff, it's proving evolution, I just choose to accept God (or some supernatural being) guided everything along. Don't take the Bible word for word...it's just a large metaphor.

That is somewhat how I feel. I believe in Evolution, as well as Creation. I look at it like this: Evolution makes sense. It makes sense scientifically and there is so much evidence to back up many of the theories about it. But, at some point, you have to think, How are humans and every other species out there so predetermined to live in a cohesive manner with every other species, and there are no hiccups, no bumps in the road. Everything is just so perfect, and in my opinion, more perfect than all the scientific facts in the world could explain. Now, Im not really sure what I believe in as far as religion goes. I know I believe in something, Im just not really sure as to what that is. But just because I dont go to church every Sunday, doesnt mean that I am not a good person. My outlook on life is this: Treat everyone with the same decency and respect that you would want to receive from said people. If you think about that before you do anything in your life, you will make the right decision, and you will live your life accordingly.

 

[Joey D]

My outlook on life is this: Treat everyone with the same decency and respect that you would want to receive from said people. If you think about that before you do anything in your life, you will make the right decision, and you will live your life accordingly.

I think that's all that matters. Well said +rep for that.

 

[Dead_Poetic]

Thanks. I mean if you really think about it, If you just ask yourself, "Would I like it if someone did this to me?" you would almost always make a morally sound decision.

 

[Famine]

Who's to say God didn't guide evolution? Saying you accept evolution is not denying God...I really hate religious people like that, it gives us normal, thinking Christians a bad name. Science proves stuff, it's proving evolution, I just choose to accept God (or some supernatural being) guided everything along. Don't take the Bible word for word...it's just a large metaphor.

One of the bugbears held against evolutionary theory is that it involves changing living things so that they are "better" than the previous versions. This automatically denies that God made everything all at the same time and, more importantly, that everything was made perfect at the start. Change in species and extinction of previous species denies perfection and this implies that God didn't get it right the first time, which denies omnipotence (and possibly omniscience).

Of course, you can point out that evolution of living things occurs in response to environmental change (which is essentially the driving force - as the environment changes so individuals prosper differently dependent on mutation and polymorphisms, the more successful ones thriving and passing on their mutations and polymorphisms to generate a large population of individuals with those genetic characteristics, leading to speciation), but then that implies that the environment wasn't perfect to start with either.


You could be of the mindset that "the Earth" (or, if you're particularly enlightened, "the Universe") is a self-regulating environment which God "created" 4.5 billion (or 18.5 billion) years ago and has left it to run its course - occasionally dropping by for a chat with a particularly smart form of monkey - but that sounds like a science experiment, and if you're omniscient you'd know the results anyway. And one thing always struck me about that particular point of view - why would God go to the effort of creating everything anyway, since He knows how everything will turn out? And if God is guiding evolution, have all of our predecessor species been granted entry to the Kingdom of Heaven, or is it just Homo sapiens sapiens?

 

[Touring Mars]

Who's to say God didn't guide evolution? Saying you accept evolution is not denying God...I really hate religious people like that, it gives us normal, thinking Christians a bad name. Science proves stuff, it's proving evolution, I just choose to accept God (or some supernatural being) guided everything along. Don't take the Bible word for word...it's just a large metaphor.

I think this is a very common viewpoint and, although it's not my viewpoint, it is pretty much what the rest of my family would probably agree with 100%.

That is somewhat how I feel. I believe in Evolution, as well as Creation. I look at it like this: Evolution makes sense. It makes sense scientifically and there is so much evidence to back up many of the theories about it.

Again, I think this almost hits the nail on the head - acceptance of evolution doesn't preclude belief in God and it doesn't challenge the notion that the absolute origins of the Universe or of matter itself is not yet fully understood. All evolution theory provides us with is an understanding of the mechanism by which seemingly 'perfect' living things can come into existence without a guiding intelligence.

But, at some point, you have to think, How are humans and every other species out there so predetermined to live in a cohesive manner with every other species, and there are no hiccups, no bumps in the road. Everything is just so perfect, and in my opinion, more perfect than all the scientific facts in the world could explain.

When you look at it, do species really live in a cohesive manner with every other species? I don't think they do! By and large, animals stay the hell away from each other, otherwise they get eaten! Plus, I don't see an element of predetermination - Natural Selection provides a very convincing alternative to the notion that life on Earth has a predetermined path....

...as for the 'no hiccups and no bumps in the road', I'm not sure what you mean by that... When it comes to the history of life on Earth, I'd say that there were some pretty large hiccups have happened along the way. Any species either adapts or dies out. During a mass extinction event, maybe 95% of all species on Earth at that time will not survive - but the ones that do only do so because they had some sort of advantage over the rest... in other words, you could say that every living species has infact had a long and painful history behind it, and (more interestingly) every living species today has an uncertain future...

 

[niky]

Dear Science, let this argument die down already!

Simply put... belief in Evolutionversus Creationism has absolutely nothing to do with a belief in God or a belief in science.

It has more to do with whether you trust the word of living, breathing researchers over dead, possibly heat-deranged-and-delirious prophets or not.

God is not the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Koran, or the Vedas. These are merely written works written by people, and their personal interpretation of the "word".

I do believe in the possibility of a divine power, or a higher intelligence... but I'm not basing my belief on whether or not Adam had a navel.

 

[FoolKiller]

You could be of the mindset that "the Earth" (or, if you're particularly enlightened, "the Universe") is a self-regulating environment which God "created" 4.5 billion (or 18.5 billion) years ago and has left it to run its course - occasionally dropping by for a chat with a particularly smart form of monkey - but that sounds like a science experiment, and if you're omniscient you'd know the results anyway.

The end result being....man? Creating the heavens and the Earth, night and day, land and sea, vegetation, animals of the water, land, and air, and then he created man. I summed it up, as I don't have a bible in front of me at the moment, but that does sound like a fairly natural progression with man being the end result.

I always thought of it as God creating man, but in order to have what he desired of man a world bound by physical laws had to be created.

And one thing always struck me about that particular point of view - why would God go to the effort of creating everything anyway, since He knows how everything will turn out?]?

Read the end bits of the Bible, while it is mostly the interpretation of a man in prison seeing a vision, thus probably not completely accurate, it leads me to believe that God does know what the end result is and why it is important and that it is part of a plan on a spiritual scale.

And if God is guiding evolution, have all of our predecessor species been granted entry to the Kingdom of Heaven, or is it just Homo sapiens sapiens?

That is a question I have no answer for. While it is a curiosity it is something I will most likely not have an answer for until I die, assuming my beliefs are correct.

 

[Famine]

I always thought of it as God creating man, but in order to have what he desired of man a world bound by physical laws had to be created.

Which denies omnipotence - in order to have what He desired, none of the previous was necessary. *plip*, man, job jobbed.

Read the end bits of the Bible, while it is mostly the interpretation of a man in prison seeing a vision, thus probably not completely accurate, it leads me to believe that God does know what the end result is and why it is important and that it is part of a plan on a spiritual scale.

As above...

That is a question I have no answer for. While it is a curiosity it is something I will most likely not have an answer for until I die, assuming my beliefs are correct.

Good call.

I can't imagine where you'd stick the angel wings on a sea squirt, or how Australopithicines would cope strumming a lyre.

 

[FoolKiller]

Which denies omnipotence - in order to have what He desired, none of the previous was necessary. *plip*, man, job jobbed.



As above...

How does it deny omnipotence? He desires to create a physical, sentient species, set above angels, and loved in a way that no spiritual creature can be loved. While he could just snap his fingers and have a fleshling man doll, it will be floating about in the spiritual ether, not quite able to make use of the physical form it was given. It must have a physical universe to interact in. In order for a physical world to work it must have physical laws to govern its physical interactions. The creation of a physical universe is a highly complex thing and from the viewpoint of eternity the whole thing did happen in a plip.

The other thing is that you are assuming that what appears to be omnipotent to us in our physical world must be omnipotent in the spiritual one. There is very little mention of interactions on the spiritual plane and most of them involve God telling Lucifer to get out for rabble rousing.

Good call.

I can't imagine where you'd stick the angel wings on a sea squirt, or how Australopithicines would cope strumming a lyre.

I figure wings, halos, and lyres are about as likely as God being a big white dude with a beard.

 

[Touring Mars]

Creating the heavens and the Earth, night and day, land and sea, vegetation, animals of the water, land, and air, and then he created man. I summed it up, as I don't have a bible in front of me at the moment, but that does sound like a fairly natural progression with man being the end result.

I always thought of it as God creating man, but in order to have what he desired of man a world bound by physical laws had to be created.

Can I ask you, do you believe that humankind is the ultimate form of life, the pinnacle of creation (or evolution, for that matter)?

And if mankind is the end result of a natural progression, where does that place previous taxa which once dominated life on Earth before Mankind existed? Where does it place other animals which exist now (like our closest biological relatives for example)? And what would be your views on what species might (and most likely will) exist in the future once mankind has died out?

 

[Famine]

How does it deny omnipotence?

If He wanted humans like us, a mere thought would have done it. No need for a massively complex and time-intensive evolution phase. As I said, *plip*, humans, job jobbed.

If, to get to us, God HAD to do something else, that implies physical constraints, which in turn denies omnipotence.

The other thing is that you are assuming that what appears to be omnipotent to us in our physical world must be omnipotent in the spiritual one. There is very little mention of interactions on the spiritual plane

Probably because the humans who invented the whole thing hadn't got much of an imagination when it came to ethereal events. If it were written today you'd have a much more convincing framework.


Just out of curiousimacy, are you suggesting that God's power might be limited? That's quite a diversion from the usual Christian mantra.

I figure wings, halos, and lyres are about as likely as God being a big white dude with a beard.

Exactly

 

[Danoff]

I'd like to go on record here by saying that there is no need for an evolutionary guide. It's quite clear when tracking the fossil record that advantageous traits stuck, and traits that were no longer advantageous lost out over time. In fact, considering the evolutionary path that life has taken on Earth, there is a decided lack of guidance.

The evolution of a species, like baseball hit into the air, is bound by certain inescapable rules. It will evolve or it will die. The local environment (and that includes predators) determines what direction it must evolve in and how fast.

 

[TheCracker]

Without trawling through all 5000+ posts in this thread, i appologise if this topic has already been covered...

What do those of us on the Creationist side of the fence think about those body parts that are no longer used but are obvious pointers to how human's have evolved and their continual evolution?

By which i'm talking about:
Appendix, Paranasal Sinuses, Coccyx, Extrinsic Ear Muscles and Darwin’s Points, Little Toes, Reminants of a Third Eyelid, Male Nipples, Wisdom Teeth etc etc?

 

[FoolKiller]

I feel there is a trap coming....I'll answer anyway.

Can I ask you, do you believe that humankind is the ultimate form of life, the pinnacle of creation (or evolution, for that matter)?

In my belief system, yes, humans are the ultimate goal. At least they are on Earth. God never said to anyone that he had a side project going on in Andromeda or whatever, nor did he say he didn't, so there may be something else there as well.

If my belief system is wrong, then I don't know. If we want to discuss the universe moving forward for another few million/billion years, then I cannot say for sure. At what point will our adaptability through tools and creation overcome our need to evolve? Certain creatures without the ability to use tools have been unchanged for millions of years. It is possible that we have reached a point where our use of technology has made it possible to not need to evolve further.

And if mankind is the end result of a natural progression, where does that place previous taxa which once dominated life on Earth before Mankind existed? Where does it place other animals which exist now (like our closest biological relatives for example)? And what would be your views on what species might (and most likely will) exist in the future once mankind has died out?

Dominant creatures before man are not dominant now, and many are completely extinct. Some just evolved away and others were killed off. Humans have only been on this planet for a few thousand years and we already figured out how to build shelters in all climates, travel in a way that allows food movement and ends foraging and moving with the seasons, and we have looked at different extinction scenarios and contemplated how to stop them, including leaving the planet. In less time we have moved closer to preventing our own extinction than any previously dominant creatures.

Animals that exist with us now, even our closest biological relatives, are limited. If we came from them, then obviously we have moved beyond where they are. Congratulations on using a stick to catch ants. This is my boom stick. Other species that show signs of near-human intelligence, such as dolphins, are physically limited. While their brains may be near ours their physical bodies leave them unable to completely utilize it. Nature left them limited.

If something happened that caused mankind to die out I would have to assume it would stop most life on Earth too, resetting the process. I have hope that before the next ELE happens we will have advanced enough to survive it or prevent it.

I have great hope for humans, whether we were created or an accident of nature. I believe we have done more than anything before us and I hope we will live on to continue to do even more.

 

[Touring Mars]

No trap intended, and your views/beliefs make alot of sense to me - so much more so than a young Earth creationist. All I would add to that is that I too believe that humankind is the most 'special' of all known living creatures that have ever walked the Earth, and you're right - even compared to our closest relatives, we are far superior - intelligence-wise atleast. However, the crux of the debate comes down to this... You are a creationist if you believe that humans are God's gift to the Earth (or vice versa) and you are an evolutionist if you believe that humans are standing on the shoulders of giants and that we are extremely fortunate to be human! Even though we can look at chimps and say 'Woo hoo, you can scratch your own backside! Big deal!", we should also remember that we both come from the same starting material i.e. a common ancestor.

It's certainly mind-blowing to think about the future of the human race, and indeed, our intelligence may yet save us from the next ELE - and we'd be the first (and perhaps the only) species to achieve this amazing feat... however, if we don't, then you can rest assured that another species will take our place as the dominant one on this planet. Their prerequisite skill may not be brainpower, and they may never understand all the weird aretfacts they find in the future (left behind after our mass extinction), but in their own way they will achieve dominance - the interesting thing is that whatever takes the role of dominant species on planet Earth in the future, has it's biological roots right here and now - but we can only guess what that may be. You only have to look at the timeline of human evolution to see how unlike out ancestors we have become...

 

[FoolKiller]

Just out of curiousimacy, are you suggesting that God's power might be limited? That's quite a diversion from the usual Christian mantra.

Not that it is limited so much (although if I find out one day that it is the shock would be wholly deserving as not once has God made that claim) but that others have power.

Let us sum the Bible up into a teeny tiny paragraph. Lucifer, the archangel, decides he doesn't like how God works. As Lucifer is the highest angel his powers closely match God's. After some rabble rousing God tosses him and his rabblers out where they truly learn hatred. During all this God creates man, whom he loves. Whether man is a tool or a catalyst, I was never clear on, but Lucifer starts messing with man because God has linked himself to man. In the end Earth and man become central to Lucifer versus God.

While some Christians wander around pretending Lucifer/Satan doesn't exist (I have no clue why this happens) there is a struggle happening between two very powerful entities who probably can't just plip each other out of existence. God's power may be limitless, but as he must contend with someone with near limitless power it may require some strategery to get things done.



Of course, this is all just me theorizing. I am not vain enough to think that I am completely right, nor do I represent all Christians.

 

[Danoff]

If God cannot just plip Satan out of existence, then his power is limited. If both God and Satan's power were limitless, then they should both be capable of pliping each other out of existence, but they should also both be capable of stopping each other from pliping them out of existence - a contradiction, proving that the two cannot both have limitless power.

Either God can wipe Satan out of existence, or his power is limited. Those are the two choices.

 

[Swift]

I'd still like Danoff to tell me how long Adam and Eve were in the garden.

But to respond to Danoff's most recent statement and clarify a bit of what FK said.

God created Lucifer, Lucifer has no power that God didn't give him. So there is only one supreme power in the universe. Also, Lucifer has no power over people, he can't force people to do things that people don't ALLOW him to do.

So yes, God could just zap Satan. He has the power. However, he sent satan to hell, a fate worse then nonexistence, especially to one that was so close to the throne of God.

Also, Satan doesn't try to get man because God is linked to man. But because he was denied salvation for his mistakes and cannot walk with God as he once did.