Creation vs. Evolution
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Win... +rep.
Fail.
Pako - quite serious. Though I'm not familiar with the case for parrots, it's certainly true that dolphins, pigs and chimpanzees are self-aware. They are amongst very few species that, when confronted with their own reflection, will identify that reflection as their own and not another member of their species.
If you fancy a laugh, put a cat in a room with a mirror on the wall at cat-height.
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And don't forget orangutans and elephants.
I never knew pigs were self-aware. Smart as a whip, but not self-aware.
I never knew pigs were self-aware. Smart as a whip, but not self-aware.
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never been around pigs and sligthly off topic, but what do they do that makes them so smart?
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From a hunting standpoint, they're not easy to hunt. They often get away by several tactics that I've never seen or experienced on any other animal.
They've been known to follow a long foot path of traffic and dive off to the side without making tracks to take cover.
They never comeback to bait after being shot at.
They almost never get caught in traps or cages, and if they do, they avoid them or bypass them quite easily. That's why Fish & Game always use hunters to get rid of them from an area. No other way to get rid of them.
There was a clip on YouTube that shows several wild boars working together to trick and trap a sheep. It's gone, though.
They've been known to follow a long foot path of traffic and dive off to the side without making tracks to take cover.
They never comeback to bait after being shot at.
They almost never get caught in traps or cages, and if they do, they avoid them or bypass them quite easily. That's why Fish & Game always use hunters to get rid of them from an area. No other way to get rid of them.
There was a clip on YouTube that shows several wild boars working together to trick and trap a sheep. It's gone, though.
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Elephants? That's one huge mirror.
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Father Ted rocks.
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The simple answer is that humans are not further evolved than every other species at all. Our brains are bigger and better developed (hence we are more intelligent) than other species, but that's really where our advantage ends. On another level, we are no more evolved than prokaryotic bacteria. The basic processes of life - respiration, metabolism, protein synthesis, energy storage/use etc. - are largely unchanged across all species from the point when they became effective (in the prokaryotic world), so from a biochemical point of view, humans are not any further evolved than anything else, even prokaryotic bacteria. On a biomolecular level, a bacterium such as E. coli contains and produces biomolecular machinery as complex as anything seen in a human being. On a chromosomal level, there seems to be no correlation whatsoever between chromosome number or genome size and intelligence (rats have about the same number of genes as humans, cows have more chromosomes than we do, the human genome is nowhere near the largest etc.). Anatomically too, there are plenty of examples in the natural world of organs/sensory apparatus that do a better job than their human counterparts - e.g. the eyesight of an Eagle. So why are we the dominant species? Doubtless it is because 'intelligence' is a trump card in the evolutionary arms-race, and because our brains have adapted in such a way that we have become 'super-intelligent', we have become the dominant species on the planet (killing off our closest competitors/relatives in the process). But remember that even this trump card that we hold is not a human innovation, but an adaptation - loads of creatures (past and present) possess brains, and many have developed intelligence independently too. Therefore, to claim that we are so much 'further evolved' on the strength of a single advantageous adaptation would be (in my view anyway) inaccurate... it would, however, be fair to say that we are so 'dominant' as a result of our intelligence, but we shouldn't confuse domination with evolution.
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Absolutely serious. There is a network of African Greys who regularly communicate with each other via a simplified email system much like we do here. One, in particular (coincidentally named Alex) has quite a large vocabulary. He can tell his handlers what he wants for dinner, and whether or not he's thirsty.
Pako
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Dolphins:
http://www.earthtrust.org/delbook.html
African Greys:
Haven't found any conclusive studies directed towards self-awareness. They seem to be very smart (that of a 5-year old human child according to some articles).
Elephants:
They seem to mourn the death of others in their herd that resemble human behavior. They also exhibit complex social behavior. What's interesting about the mirror tests at the Bronx zoo, is that it only implies self-awareness.
Orangutans:
According to articles I have read, their self-awareness is debatable at best.
http://www.earthtrust.org/delbook.html
African Greys:
Haven't found any conclusive studies directed towards self-awareness. They seem to be very smart (that of a 5-year old human child according to some articles).
Elephants:
They seem to mourn the death of others in their herd that resemble human behavior. They also exhibit complex social behavior. What's interesting about the mirror tests at the Bronx zoo, is that it only implies self-awareness.
Orangutans:
According to articles I have read, their self-awareness is debatable at best.
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It does beg the rather obvious question: is self-awareness or even intelligence a hallmark of (evolutionary) success? There are innumerable species that are arguably as successful at living on this planet as we are, without the need for self-awareness or intelligence (as we define it) at all. Time will tell whether it's a long-term advantage or not. In the space of 1/3000th of the time dinosaurs lived on this planet, we've come from obscurity to developing nuclear weapons capable of destroying every human being on Earth, thanks to our 'intelligence'...
Pako
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The term, "Ignorance is bliss" comes to mind. It is scary to think of what our 'intelligence' has brought us. On the other hand, it has also brought us art, music, culture, advancements in health care.
It's rather curious how humans are the only ones that we know of to have such a high evolved intellect. I mean, WAY beyond any other species. You would think that other species would have also evolved intellectually as a means of survival, but non have to the extent that humans have.
Were other animals have adapted and evolved if you will with similar traits for survival from running, flying, swimming, low light vision, ultra sensitive hearing, and on and on and on..... Not one species on the planet can reason the way humans can to the extent that they can. I think that's significant when the Bible says we were created in His own image.
Danoff
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Depends on what you consider success. I'd say our complete and utter domination of the planet should be considered hugely successful compared to other long lasting animals. And I seriously doubt that mankind will kill itself off. We've managed not only to have nuclear weapons capable of destroying every human being on Earth, we've also managed to be smart enough NOT to kill every human being no the planet.
and 
knowing that I agree with you Danoff. I must be going 
to admit that, and especially in this thread of all threads. 👍
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From the movie, Matrix: as spoken by Agent Smith -
"I'd like to share a revelation I've had during my time here. It came to me when I
tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually
mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural
equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You
move to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural
resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another
area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern.
Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of
this planet. You are a plague, and we are the cure."
I find this disturbing if only because it does ring true. However, we have not always lived like this - consuming our planet in such excess - we used to live "within" its capacity about 1,000 years ago. But we may never again want to be so disciplined and cooperative with nature once we have tasted the fruit of excess.
"I'd like to share a revelation I've had during my time here. It came to me when I
tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually
mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural
equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You
move to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural
resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another
area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern.
Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of
this planet. You are a plague, and we are the cure."
I find this disturbing if only because it does ring true. However, we have not always lived like this - consuming our planet in such excess - we used to live "within" its capacity about 1,000 years ago. But we may never again want to be so disciplined and cooperative with nature once we have tasted the fruit of excess.
Year.Zero
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That reminds me—I recall seeing a documentary that postulated there was a war between the European neanderthal and the cro-magnon man that may have caused neanderthal's extinction;
Wikipedia
That would at least be an example of how "we" could have come to domination.
As you can see, there were more than one "species" of "human" (ie, those species closest related to us) that have even coexisted and come into conflict—in which case the more intelligent species (cro-magnon) won out.
Edit: cro-magnon won over neanderthal, chronologically***
Danoff
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It's not true at all. It's probably the worst bit of dialog Smith has in any of those movies. I'm usually a big fan of his lines, but not those. Here's why.
Smith
Wrong. No animal instinctively develops an equilibrium with their environment. They try to survive as long as possible and procreate as often as possible. The equilibrium comes about because they are not smart enough to cope with their eventual numbers. When the food supply runs short they can't figure out how to improve the situation, so they die off. That's not an instinctual equilibrium at all.
- 457
True, not one of his best quotes and perhaps not true of animal behavior in general. However, in the end, equilibrium is in fact maintained among animals and between animals and nature. Not so between humans and nature, or for that matter, between humans themselves. And that's the point of Smith's observation.
We humans do exhibit virus-like behavior. So-called developed industrial nations survive by continually exploring and claiming new territories and unearthing the natural resources in order to produce for their people and to develop their economy. Often at nature's expense. The westward expansion of the 1800's here in the US is one example. Our various space missions involving probes to distant planets represent the next wave of expansion as we attempt to better quantify the natural resources within these planets.
Veni, vidi, vici - it's our way of life.
We humans do exhibit virus-like behavior. So-called developed industrial nations survive by continually exploring and claiming new territories and unearthing the natural resources in order to produce for their people and to develop their economy. Often at nature's expense. The westward expansion of the 1800's here in the US is one example. Our various space missions involving probes to distant planets represent the next wave of expansion as we attempt to better quantify the natural resources within these planets.
Veni, vidi, vici - it's our way of life.
