Creation vs. Evolution

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There are plenty examples of science 'correcting' itself, however, but that said, if it is wrong, would you rather it stayed wrong?
Science does constantly change, but rarely, if ever, does it change to an idea that is more incorrect than before. That's the biggest thing here. Scientists don't usually agree on an idea, only to later decide that an older theory was better.
my problem with it, is not that it is corrected. Nor is my problem that they make mistakes. My problem is however, when people swear up and down that it is impossible for anything to be wrong with current scientific "facts".
but because we have all imagined, as a child, being with a scary-looking, scaly, crocodile type of T-Rex as opposed to a funny-looking giant turkey.
That's because that's what was always depicted in.... you guessed it, school science!
 
And yet it was treated as treason when I said they're constantly correcting everything scientific that does not actually meet the requirements to be scientific fact.

Have you actually been reading this thread? Every one in it on the natural science side has said nothing except that science is the continual process of refining and correcting our understanding of the natural world.

That's what science IS!

I suppose Creationists are so allergic to the idea of possibly not understanding everything that they (ironically) declare it to be non-understandable so they can stand on the firm foundation of unchanging dogma. I don't get that, myself. I'd rather have an incomplete understanding of my environs than simply declare understanding impossible and just quit thinking about it.

Creationists/IDers either truly don't understand science, or they deliberately overstate the uncertainty. They love to portray it as if everything scientists "knew" 20 years ago is totally invalid and has been replaced by entirely new "facts", which themselves will be completely replaced by 20 years from now.

This is simply UNTRUE, and to pretend it is true means either that you are completely ignorant of science, or willfully misleading yourself (and others) about science.
 
my problem with it, is not that it is corrected. Nor is my problem that they make mistakes. My problem is however, when people swear up and down that it is impossible for anything to be wrong with current scientific "facts".
That's because that's what was always depicted in.... you guessed it, school science!

Except school science now teaches that feathered dinosaurs are a possibility. My nephew will grow up thinking of feathered dinosaurs as naturally as my generation assumed that they were scaly. What is wrong with that, exactly? Nothing.

My observation was, that my generation is now experiencing a knowledge revolution (or should that be evolution?) like many other generations before have. I am sure there must have been people still thinking the Earth was the centre of the Universe when the heliocentric theory was first being taught. I just find it amazing how fast knowledge can advance. I know I said earlier that feathered dinosaurs will be a hard obstacle to overcome, but I changed my mind. This will be an even smoother transition than the jump to the round Earth theory or anything like that. The reason is because information is readily availble, because of constantly changing knowledge.

So what if science is constantly changing? Wouldn't you rather have the most up-to-date knowledge available? What if we just stayed with information from 2000 years ago and not advanced at all from that point? Sure, people from the time might have thought life couldn't get much better, but how can we make it any better unless we take a chance, and try new ideas? It is because of science that our standard of living has increased, diseases have been cured, the world has become closer connected and our conversation on this message board is possible. So what if some people hold current scientific facts as "uncorrectable"? Everyone knows they can be corrected. You only need to look at auto racing to see that in action.
 
my problem with it, is not that it is corrected. Nor is my problem that they make mistakes. My problem is however, when people swear up and down that it is impossible for anything to be wrong with current scientific "facts".

Are you trying to say that you find it hypocritical to deal with people who say that evolution cannot be wrong, but science corrects itself all the time?
 
Are you trying to say that you find it hypocritical to deal with people who say that evolution cannot be wrong, but science corrects itself all the time?
No. My problem is that despite continuous changes in what is considered scientific "fact", people will still act obnoxiously toward anyone who doesn't believe everything currently considered "scientific fact".
My other problem is how loose people leave the reigns on what is considered scientific fact nowadays. Especially when it comes to origins of the universe.
It seems that it's become very common to simply call the most reasonable possibility a scientific fact.

Duke
Creationists/IDers either truly don't understand science, or they deliberately overstate the uncertainty. They love to portray it as if everything scientists "knew" 20 years ago is totally invalid and has been replaced by entirely new "facts", which themselves will be completely replaced by 20 years from now.
I know I haven't said that, nor have I ever heard anyone else say that. But doesn't it aggrevate you when creationists constantly change their interpretations of the bible to coincide with current science? I know it aggrevates me, the same as people swearing scientific theory as fact does.

Grand Prix
My observation was, that my generation is now experiencing a knowledge revolution (or should that be evolution?) like many other generations before have. I am sure there must have been people still thinking the Earth was the centre of the Universe when the heliocentric theory was first being taught. I just find it amazing how fast knowledge can advance. I know I said earlier that feathered dinosaurs will be a hard obstacle to overcome, but I changed my mind. This will be an even smoother transition than the jump to the round Earth theory or anything like that. The reason is because information is readily availble, because of constantly changing knowledge.
But my problem is the "knowledge" word. If it gets changed in the future, or was changed in the past, that means we believe it to be incorrect, (now) yet it was passed on as fact.
Why can't these things be passed on as "possible", or "probable" instead of the be-all end-all certain truth?
 
Good points 👍 I do think, however, that science doesn't deal with 'certain truths' insomuch as what is generally called 'scientific fact' really means "to the best of our present knowledge". But that said, there are facts that are so well known and so well supported by evidence, that they are as certain as anything else we know and are highly unlikely to ever change. Scientific theories offer the best collective explanation for the presence of a large number of facts, and as such they are subject to change as new facts come to light... A scientific theory such as the theory of evolution can be challenged by the discovery/presentation of new facts that dispute/contradict present theory, but this is the single biggest flaw with ID as an opposing scientific stance - because it has been shown time and time again to be completely incapable of generating any evidence that directly contradicts evolution theory.

The problem with "challenging the orthodoxy" is that is not that it shouldn't be done, it's that it has to be done in a legitimate and productive way. Creationists deliberately overblow the uncertainty around 'facts' as if no scientifically established fact can or should be considered meaningful... apart from being counterproductive, it's also completely absurd to do this, yet this is exactly what they do all the time. As has been said many times before in this thread, Creationists have no problem accepting the theory of gravitation, yet the true nature of gravity is arguably far less well understood than the origin of the human species...
 
But my problem is the "knowledge" word. If it gets changed in the future, or was changed in the past, that means we believe it to be incorrect, (now) yet it was passed on as fact.
Why can't these things be passed on as "possible", or "probable" instead of the be-all end-all certain truth?

I don't think any scientist actually treats data/facts as "truth." That is something that philosophical and religious persons discuss about. All a scientist cares about is what he/she can observe, comparing his findings with his peers and trying to make a theory that makes sense with others' findings. Though it is possible they may have found some truth in data, with the Universe being as mysterious as it is, we may never know. If we could ask why God created the Universe, or why he created gravitation, or why the speed of light is the speed of light - we wouldn't have to figure out these things by ourselves. Why haven't any of our religious members, that can supposedly "talk" to God, asked him these questions? We could save a a lot of time. Or maybe He wants us to figure it out by ourselves. If so, WHY? :lol:

I realize you may be talking about other people, not scientists, that treat current science as "truth." Those people have been around for ages. The reason they just agree with the current knowledge is because it is easier to do so than to grab a pick and go out to find fossils. Their lives go on much easier just living with the knowledge instead of trying to analyze it and come up with their own conclusions. Still, at least they are trying to keep up with current facts instead of hanging onto ones that were made centuries ago. Sure, they may have been "written" by God, back then, but maybe He had to dumb down the information and withdrawal some of it because people back then were just too stupid to understand anything else? Maybe God is guiding science to present the answers for us?
 
most feathered creatures fly, most dinosaurs didn't, I wouldn't expect them to have feathers.
You know they say pigs have more similar internal organs to humans than any other animal, but that wouldn't make me assume people roll around in their own excrement.

You do know, that for the nth time, you've contradicted yourself.

You say:
If most feathered creatures fly and dinos didn't, then dinos don't have feathers.

Yet:
pigs have similar internal organs to humans but that doesn't make you assume people roll around in their own excrement.

If Ipsum doesn't follow Lorem, then what's the problem with dinos having feathers?

----

The fallacy is that the feather is a pre-requisite for flight or was created solely for flight.

Strong, stretchable skin is not a prerequisite for flight, either. Yet bats and "flying squirrels" use skin membranes to fly. So... if bats have skin and humans have skin... do they both fly?

but isn't this just another time supposed exact science "corrects" itself? 20 years ago, dinosaurs were reptiles, and did not have feathers, now some of them did, they say. or all of them did, nobody's really clarified if it's just a few feathered dinosaurs, or all of them. either way, science is changing the very things that were argued "scientifically sound" just a few years ago.
And yet it was treated as treason when I said they're constantly correcting everything scientific that does not actually meet the requirements to be scientific fact.

No. The method of science doesn't correct itself.

The fallacy is in thinking that science is an absolute. Science describes the world based on the available information. As more information arises, science rounds out that view, throws out mistaken hypotheses, and puts in ones that fit the facts. Creationism doesn't. It's still stuck with a hypothesis for the beginning of all things that's thousands of years old.

20 years ago... it was known that dinosaurs were descended from reptiles, but were not reptiles. They were classified as a different order. And even back then, there was a debate as to whether they were cold-blooded or warm-blooded. Now, we're pretty sure they're warm-blooded... in fact, that's been the generally accepted (note: generally accepted means that people agree that it seems true given the evidence... not that it's written in stone) theory for at least the past decade.

They're constantly correcting false deductions that were based on faulty data... but the theory of Evolution itself has not been corrected since its inception.

No. My problem is that despite continuous changes in what is considered scientific "fact", people will still act obnoxiously toward anyone who doesn't believe everything currently considered "scientific fact".
My other problem is how loose people leave the reigns on what is considered scientific fact nowadays. Especially when it comes to origins of the universe.
It seems that it's become very common to simply call the most reasonable possibility a scientific fact.

Well.. how loose are the reins? Scientists themselves don't call theories facts. That's why they call them theories. It's lay-people who claim that everything is a fact.

I know I haven't said that, nor have I ever heard anyone else say that. But doesn't it aggrevate you when creationists constantly change their interpretations of the bible to coincide with current science? I know it aggrevates me, the same as people swearing scientific theory as fact does.

Creationists don't. Religious leaders sometimes do overturn dogma and offer new interpretations based on the modern world. Without revisionism, Catholicism would not have experienced the resurgence it did in the late 20th Century.

But for the religious fundamentalists who push Creationism. Nothing changes. Ever. If they could have their own way, we'd still stone adulterers in the streets and exile lepers.

But my problem is the "knowledge" word. If it gets changed in the future, or was changed in the past, that means we believe it to be incorrect, (now) yet it was passed on as fact.
Why can't these things be passed on as "possible", or "probable" instead of the be-all end-all certain truth?

Science always states it as most probable... or generally accepted. It's some religious people who have hang-ups regarding the words "absolute truth". And, as the others have said... lay-people who merely parrot the scientists.

The problem with challenging scientific theorems and saying that they're not sound is that, as Touring Mars explains, you can't just say: "I think it's a load of bull." You have to come up with a legitimate argument as to why it cannot be.

Creationists like to bring up the "Missing Link" thing when challenging Evolution. Well... Evolution isn't a mystery novel. Lose one page and your case unravels... NO!... the empirical evidence for evolution is more like a series of rivers flowing across the landscape. Maybe, at some point, one river goes underground and comes out somewhere else. Is it the same river? By looking at the general direction of the flow, and analyzing the water, you can figure out which tributaries came from where.

The evidence presented by TM? Well... someone tested the waters of one river. Found trace minerals that could only have come from one area (for simplicity's sake... it's that river and ONLY that river that goes through there...). They tested a few rivers downstream and found the same trace minerals. So now they deduce that, according to the evidence, those rivers came from this one.

Makes sense, doesn't it?
 
You do know, that for the nth time, you've contradicted yourself.

You say:
If most feathered creatures fly and dinos didn't, then dinos don't have feathers.


Yet:
pigs have similar internal organs to humans but that doesn't make you assume people roll around in their own excrement.

If Ipsum doesn't follow Lorem, then what's the problem with dinos having feathers?

----
I've highlighted the untrue and things that are nonsense.
I did not once say "dino don't have feathers". I said I wouldn't expect them to.

The fallacy is that the feather is a pre-requisite for flight or was created solely for flight.
No, most creatures with feathers fly, nearly all, so again, I would not expect a creature that cannot fly to have feathers.

Strong, stretchable skin is not a prerequisite for flight, either. Yet bats and "flying squirrels" use skin membranes to fly. So... if bats have skin and humans have skin... do they both fly?
"Strong stretchable skin" is not something humans have.



No. The method of science doesn't correct itself.
You're right. The true method of science is often overlooked to finish the picture and state believed fact.

The fallacy is in thinking that science is an absolute. Science describes the world based on the available information. As more information arises, science rounds out that view, throws out mistaken hypotheses, and puts in ones that fit the facts. Creationism doesn't. It's still stuck with a hypothesis for the beginning of all things that's thousands of years old.
When one completes all steps required to truely scientifically prove something, science is absolute.

20 years ago... it was known that dinosaurs were descended from reptiles, but were not reptiles. They were classified as a different order. And even back then, there was a debate as to whether they were cold-blooded or warm-blooded. Now, we're pretty sure they're warm-blooded... in fact, that's been the generally accepted (note: generally accepted means that people agree that it seems true given the evidence... not that it's written in stone) theory for at least the past decade.
Ok, got the not reptiles part. What were they?

They're constantly correcting false deductions that were based on faulty data... but the theory of Evolution itself has not been corrected since its inception.
I clearly know the first part, as for evolution, who believes evolution isn't true? we see it everyday. Only the truely ignorant claim evolution false.


Well.. how loose are the reins? Scientists themselves don't call theories facts. That's why they call them theories. It's lay-people who claim that everything is a fact.
If by lay-people you mean general population, sure. I don't know any scientists, so I don't know what they say firsthand.



Creationists don't. Religious leaders sometimes do overturn dogma and offer new interpretations based on the modern world. Without revisionism, Catholicism would not have experienced the resurgence it did in the late 20th Century.
well everyone knows people change religion to fit their lives.

But for the religious fundamentalists who push Creationism. Nothing changes. Ever. If they could have their own way, we'd still stone adulterers in the streets and exile lepers.
But their are extremists on every side imaginable - not just creationists.



Science always states it as most probable... or generally accepted. It's some religious people who have hang-ups regarding the words "absolute truth". And, as the others have said... lay-people who merely parrot the scientists.
But there are ways to scientifically prove facts, just not regarding the origins of the universe, etc.

The problem with challenging scientific theorems and saying that they're not sound is that, as Touring Mars explains, you can't just say: "I think it's a load of bull." You have to come up with a legitimate argument as to why it cannot be.
Actually, you can. Not all scientific theories make sense to everyone. Just because you don't have an answer is no reason not to ask a question, the saying goes.

Creationists like to bring up the "Missing Link" thing when challenging Evolution. Well... Evolution isn't a mystery novel. Lose one page and your case unravels... NO!... the empirical evidence for evolution is more like a series of rivers flowing across the landscape. Maybe, at some point, one river goes underground and comes out somewhere else. Is it the same river? By looking at the general direction of the flow, and analyzing the water, you can figure out which tributaries came from where.

The evidence presented by TM? Well... someone tested the waters of one river. Found trace minerals that could only have come from one area (for simplicity's sake... it's that river and ONLY that river that goes through there...). They tested a few rivers downstream and found the same trace minerals. So now they deduce that, according to the evidence, those rivers came from this one.

Makes sense, doesn't it?
You really missed the part where I didn't say dinosaurs didn't have feathers.
I simply said, "who said dinosaurs had feathers", because at that point, I hadn't seen anyone in this thread say that they did, nor was it ever taught while I was in school (I'm only 24). And I payed attention to that stuff, cause I liked it.
 
No, most creatures with feathers fly, nearly all, so again, I would not expect a creature that cannot fly to have feathers.

Dodos... Ostriches... Emus.... Kiwis If the only bird you saw were an Ostrich or a Kiwi, you wouldn't expect a bird to fly, either.

"Strong stretchable skin" is not something humans have.

897957-They-think-this-looks-attractive-0.jpg


You're right. The true method of science is often overlooked to finish the picture and state believed fact.

But that requires the scientific method to have not been followed. By following the history of paleontology... you see how they apply the method...

When one completes all steps required to truely scientifically prove something, science is absolute.

And by following that history, you can see how people can build up the wrong ideas about extinct animals from incomplete information. I'm not going to say scientists are perfect or completely free of dogmatic thinking. It's impossible to be completely objective... but you can see that incomplete information leads to modelling error. Science is not absolute. Never. The only time we can say that science is absolute is when we have complete knowledge...

Ok, got the not reptiles part. What were they?

Dinosaurs. :lol: Actually, let me correct myself. Dinosuars are a sub-order of reptiles, but they're quite different from reptiles. They're derived from the reptiles, but differ from them nearly as much as mammals do. The dinosaur-bird connection has been known for quite a long time, due to the fact that dinosaurs and birds share the same hips. and bone structure, but it wasn't known till recently (say, around the 70's or 80's) how much closer they were to birds than reptiles.

With the state of education and the glacial pace of change in the educational system, it's understandable that you and I were taught this, but it's been well-accepted in paleontology for quite a while that dinosaurs were most possibly warm-blooded and most probably had fur or feathers.

If by lay-people you mean general population, sure. I don't know any scientists, so I don't know what they say firsthand.

Well... many scientists are objective as can be, but some do have the odd belief... actually, you're talking to one or two on this thread right now... I believe both TM and Famine know more about science than the rest of us put together.

But their are extremists on every side imaginable - not just creationists.

You'll have to provide me with an example of an "extreme" scientist. :lol: Well... maybe environmental science provides us with the odd evangelist... but within the context of the discussion, creationists are the extremists we have. There are scientists who are extremely anti-religious in regards to this argument, but they've been provoked into that stance by the continual bickering of the Creationist/Intelligent Design crowd.

But there are ways to scientifically prove facts, just not regarding the origins of the universe, etc.

You can prove that it's probable. That a theorem can account for 100% of the evidence given. And that's what Evolution does. The confusion arising from it being a "Theory" It's called a "Theory" and not a "Law" because "Laws" in science do not require external proof. A Theorem does. That's why a Theory can change, because if you find a million gigabytes worth of proof to the contrary, the Theory can be overthrown. So far, we haven't seen such data.

Actually, you can. Not all scientific theories make sense to everyone. Just because you don't have an answer is no reason not to ask a question, the saying goes.

Scientific theories make no sense if you're not familiar with the topic. The endearing part about science is that you or I could pick up a textbook, study it, learn the field, then go out and perform scientific experiments to validate said theories. Yes, you can question the validity of the theory, but it's better to understand it, first. Creationism makes no attempt to understand Evolution. They merely try to poke semantic holes in it.

You really missed the part where I didn't say dinosaurs didn't have feathers.
I simply said, "who said dinosaurs had feathers", because at that point, I hadn't seen anyone in this thread say that they did, nor was it ever taught while I was in school (I'm only 24). And I payed attention to that stuff, cause I liked it.

Granted. But yes, I paid attention in school, and they taught science all wrong. Lost a freaking quiz bee because of that, even when I brought in the texts to prove I was right. Reference again: "glacial pace of change in the educational system."
 
Dodos... Ostriches... Emus.... Kiwis If the only bird you saw were an Ostrich or a Kiwi, you wouldn't expect a bird to fly, either.
you forgot chickens! But the point is it's a seldom occurance.

That's not only disgusting, but not something I would consider normally tolerable. For nit-pickyness sake, I'll say that bats are the only creature alive today that flies without feathers, and are therefore the odd-ball.
So the correct assumption would be "bats don't have feathers, they can't fly".
We all know there are exceptions to every rule or stereotype.


But that requires the scientific method to have not been followed. By following the history of paleontology... you see how they apply the method...
No, I'm talking about the three things one must do to scientifically prove something.



And by following that history, you can see how people can build up the wrong ideas about extinct animals from incomplete information. I'm not going to say scientists are perfect or completely free of dogmatic thinking. It's impossible to be completely objective... but you can see that incomplete information leads to modelling error. Science is not absolute. Never. The only time we can say that science is absolute is when we have complete knowledge...
I disagree. Science can be absolute, so long as the 3 founding principles are completed. (sadly I can't remember them, but I know a very important one is to be able to re-create it, or make it happen again).


Dinosaurs. :lol: Actually, let me correct myself. Dinosuars are a sub-order of reptiles, but they're quite different from reptiles. They're derived from the reptiles, but differ from them nearly as much as mammals do. The dinosaur-bird connection has been known for quite a long time, due to the fact that dinosaurs and birds share the same hips. and bone structure, but it wasn't known till recently (say, around the 70's or 80's) how much closer they were to birds than reptiles.
Does this include four legged dinosaurs, that ate plants (at least that's what they did when I was a kid) I know some (brontosaurous) don't exist anymore.:indiff:

With the state of education and the glacial pace of change in the educational system, it's understandable that you and I were taught this, but it's been well-accepted in paleontology for quite a while that dinosaurs were most possibly warm-blooded and most probably had fur or feathers.
one would wish Jurrasic park movies would've taken a stab.


You'll have to provide me with an example of an "extreme" scientist. :lol: Well... maybe environmental science provides us with the odd evangelist... but within the context of the discussion, creationists are the extremists we have. There are scientists who are extremely anti-religious in regards to this argument, but they've been provoked into that stance by the continual bickering of the Creationist/Intelligent Design crowd.
You mean they get upset when people don't believe their theories? If it's only a theory, what's the insult?


You can prove that it's probable. That a theorem can account for 100% of the evidence given. And that's what Evolution does. The confusion arising from it being a "Theory" It's called a "Theory" and not a "Law" because "Laws" in science do not require external proof. A Theorem does. That's why a Theory can change, because if you find a million gigabytes worth of proof to the contrary, the Theory can be overthrown. So far, we haven't seen such data.
is that a million gigs in a *zip* file, or open?:lol:


Scientific theories make no sense if you're not familiar with the topic. The endearing part about science is that you or I could pick up a textbook, study it, learn the field, then go out and perform scientific experiments to validate said theories. Yes, you can question the validity of the theory, but it's better to understand it, first. Creationism makes no attempt to understand Evolution. They merely try to poke semantic holes in it.
That all depends on who's creationism your talking about. Nowadays everyone has their own interpretation of what it all means, depending on how true they want to stick to direct quotes from the Bible.



Granted. But yes, I paid attention in school, and they taught science all wrong. Lost a freaking quiz bee because of that, even when I brought in the texts to prove I was right. Reference again: "glacial pace of change in the educational system."
You couldn't possibly have expected a school to admit error, did you? That would be like... the pope saying the earth is 4.5 billion years old.
But that is a perfect example of what I was saying about people swearing on science theories that end up false. It is why I wish scientists would be a little more hesitant to post theories, because people gobble them up as absolute.

But let's look at the bright side, I learned that new(er) science believes dinos mighta been feathered, and I already got to make a joke about a T-Rex Chicken! BOK-KA! (it really is a hilarious thought)
 
you forgot chickens! But the point is it's a seldom occurance.

Seems I remember chickens being referenced earlier in this thread. Something to do with dinosaurs I seem to recall...

I disagree. Science can be absolute, so long as the 3 founding principles are completed. (sadly I can't remember them, but I know a very important one is to be able to re-create it, or make it happen again).

I've never seen any result from science that is absolute. Please provide an example, and please find those principles, I'm dying to know what they are.

If it's only a theory, what's the insult?

You're confusing the term theory as used to describe science with the colloquial use of the term. A scientific theory is supported by evidence.

But that is a perfect example of what I was saying about people swearing on science theories that end up false.

I'm sorry, I'm lost on what the failings of the public school system have to do with this discussion. Are they swearing that they're right? Or are they too lazy/inefficient to change the curriculum?

As for the solidity of scientific theories, that's all science has. It never gets any more concrete, science has no greater approval stamp than the word "theory". There is no graduation from that label.
 
Insects have been flying for far longer than anything else has. Yet they don't use feathers. Their methods of flying are also pretty sophisticated. A housefly takes off backwards (try this at home, spot a fly resting on something and try to grab it from behind, you'll get it most of the time, good luck getting it from the front like most people do though), and dragonflies can do anything they want to in the air pretty much. Backwards, sideways, hovering, and incredible speed for their size. They're like an improved Harrier Jump Jet with teeth and compound eyes. It'll be a while before we can make an aircraft fly like a dragonfly can. Mind, we do have helicopters, but they are sluggish in comparison.
 
Since no one has mentioned Sternberg, I'll share this article and perhaps aid in some healthy discussion.

www.washingtonpost.com
Editor Explains Reasons for 'Intelligent Design' Article

By Michael Powell
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, August 19, 2005; A19

Evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg made a fateful decision a year ago.

As editor of the hitherto obscure Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, Sternberg decided to publish a paper making the case for "intelligent design," a controversial theory that holds that the machinery of life is so complex as to require the hand -- subtle or not -- of an intelligent creator.

Within hours of publication, senior scientists at the Smithsonian Institution -- which has helped fund and run the journal -- lashed out at Sternberg as a shoddy scientist and a closet Bible thumper.

"They were saying I accepted money under the table, that I was a crypto-priest, that I was a sleeper cell operative for the creationists," said Steinberg, 42 , who is a Smithsonian research associate. "I was basically run out of there."

An independent agency has come to the same conclusion, accusing top scientists at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History of retaliating against Sternberg by investigating his religion and smearing him as a "creationist."

The U.S. Office of Special Counsel, which was established to protect federal employees from reprisals, examined e-mail traffic from these scientists and noted that "retaliation came in many forms . . . misinformation was disseminated through the Smithsonian Institution and to outside sources. The allegations against you were later determined to be false."

"The rumor mill became so infected," James McVay, the principal legal adviser in the Office of Special Counsel, wrote to Sternberg, "that one of your colleagues had to circulate [your résumé] simply to dispel the rumor that you were not a scientist."

The Washington Post and two other media outlets obtained a copy of the still-private report.

McVay, who is a political appointee of the Bush administration, acknowledged in the report that a fuller response from the Smithsonian might have tempered his conclusions. As Sternberg is not a Smithsonian employee -- the National Institutes of Health pays his salary -- the special counsel lacks the power to impose a legal remedy.

A spokeswoman for the Smithsonian Institution declined comment, noting that it has not received McVay's report.

"We do stand by evolution -- we are a scientific organization," said Linda St. Thomas, the spokeswoman. An official privately suggested that McVay might want to embarrass the institution.

It is hard to overstate the passions fired by the debate over intelligent design. President Bush recently said that schoolchildren should learn about the theory alongside Darwin's theory of evolution -- a view that goes beyond even the stance of intelligent design advocates. Dozens of state school boards have attempted to mandate the teaching of anti-Darwinian theories.

A small band of scientists argue for intelligent design, saying evolutionary theory's path is littered with too many gaps and mysteries, and cannot account for the origin of life.

Most evolutionary biologists, not to mention much of the broader scientific community, dismiss intelligent design as a sophisticated version of creationism. To teach it in science classes, they say, would be to overturn hundreds of years of scientific progress. The National Museum of Natural History was drawn into this controversy in June, when protest forced it to withdraw from co-sponsorship of a documentary on intelligent design.

Sternberg's case has sent ripples far beyond the Beltway. The special counsel accused the National Center for Science Education, an Oakland, Calif.-based think tank that defends the teaching of evolution, of orchestrating attacks on Sternberg.

"The NCSE worked closely with" the Smithsonian "in outlining a strategy to have you investigated and discredited," McVay wrote to Sternberg.

NCSE officials accused McVay of playing out a political agenda. "I must say that Mr. McVay flatters us beyond our desserts -- the Smithsonian is a distinguished organization of highly competent scientists, and they're not marionettes," said Eugenie Scott, the group's executive director. "If this was a corporation, and an employee did something that really embarrassed the administration, really blew it, how long do you think that person would be employed?"
Risky Decision

Sternberg is an unlikely revolutionary. He holds two PhDs in evolutionary biology, his graduate work draws praise from his former professors, and in 2000 he gained a coveted research associate appointment at the Smithsonian Institution.

Not long after that, Smithsonian scientists asked Sternberg to become the unpaid editor of Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, a sleepy scientific journal affiliated with the Smithsonian. Three years later, Sternberg agreed to consider a paper by Stephen C. Meyer, a Cambridge University-educated philosopher of science who argues that evolutionary theory cannot account for the vast profusion of multicellular species and forms in what is known as the Cambrian "explosion," which occurred about 530 million years ago.

Scientists still puzzle at this great proliferation of life. But Meyer's paper went several long steps further, arguing that an intelligent agent -- God, according to many who espouse intelligent design -- was the best explanation for the rapid appearance of higher life-forms.

Sternberg harbored his own doubts about Darwinian theory. He also acknowledged that this journal had not published such papers in the past and that he wanted to stir the scientific pot.

"I am not convinced by intelligent design but they have brought a lot of difficult questions to the fore," Sternberg said. "Science only moves forward on controversy."

He mailed Meyer's article to three scientists for a peer review. It has been suggested that Sternberg fabricated the peer review or sought unqualified scientists, a claim McVay dismissed.

"They were critical of the paper and gave 50 things to consider," Sternberg said. "But they said that people are talking about this and we should air the views."

When the article appeared, the reaction was near instantaneous and furious. Within days, detailed scientific critiques of Meyer's article appeared on pro-evolution Web sites. "The origin of genetic information is thoroughly understood," said Nick Matzke of the NCSE. "If the arguments were coherent this paper would have been revolutionary-- but they were bogus."

A senior Smithsonian scientist wrote in an e-mail: "We are evolutionary biologists and I am sorry to see us made into the laughing stock of the world, even if this kind of rubbish sells well in backwoods USA."

An e-mail stated, falsely, that Sternberg had "training as an orthodox priest." Another labeled him a "Young Earth Creationist," meaning a person who believes God created the world in the past 10,000 years.

This latter accusation is a reference to Sternberg's service on the board of the Baraminology Study Group, a "young Earth" group. Sternberg insists he does not believe in creationism. "I was rather strong in my criticism of them," he said. "But I agreed to work as a friendly but critical outsider."

Scott, of the NCSE, insisted that Smithsonian scientists had no choice but to explore Sternberg's religious beliefs. "They don't care if you are religious, but they do care a lot if you are a creationist," Scott said. "Sternberg denies it, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it argues for zealotry."
Endgame

Sternberg has seen stress piled upon stress in the past year. His marriage has dissolved, and he no longer comes into the Smithsonian. When the biological society issued a statement disavowing Meyer's article, Sternberg was advised not to attend. "I was told that feelings were running so high, they could not guarantee me that they could keep order," Sternberg said.

A former professor of Sternberg's says the researcher has an intellectual penchant for going against the system. Sternberg does not deny it.

"I loathe careerism and the herd mentality," he said. "I really think that objective truth can be discovered and that popular opinion and consensus thinking does more to obscure than to reveal."

Discuss?
 
That guy ought to be run out of there for deciding to publish a non-scientific paper in a scientific journal. It would be like printing a scientific research paper in a religious publication - just doesn't belong. Poor job-related decision.
 
That guy ought to be run out of there for deciding to publish a non-scientific paper in a scientific journal. It would be like printing a scientific research paper in a religious publication - just doesn't belong. Poor job-related decision.
Except it did go through the proper peer review process and it was agreed that it should be published by other scientists. And by that straight-forward response I will assume you did read the article in question?


Of course, the debate of whether it belongs is far from over as the accusation was that the peer review was stacked in his favor and the article does not address that any further, like investigating who the peer reviewers were. Considering some of the blatantly incorrect allegations made we cannot assume that the allegations of a pro-biased peer review are remotely correct.


As I have not read the paper I cannot say how much of it is religious tripe or if he was merely saying that perhaps it wouldn't kill the scientific community to broaden their views.
 
Except it did go through the proper peer review process and it was agreed that it should be published by other scientists.

So... you're saying more people need to be run out of there? I say fire the reviewers as well.


As I have not read the paper I cannot say how much of it is religious tripe or if he was merely saying that perhaps it wouldn't kill the scientific community to broaden their views.

Broaden their views to include non-scientific explanations? Broaden their views to ignore evidence? It's a research publication.
 
Seems I remember chickens being referenced earlier in this thread. Something to do with dinosaurs I seem to recall...
that's why it was funny he didn't metion them.


I've never seen any result from science that is absolute. Please provide an example, and please find those principles, I'm dying to know what they are.
I'm looking now, but seriously, you don't believe in scientific law or fact?



You're confusing the term theory as used to describe science with the colloquial use of the term. A scientific theory is supported by evidence.
No, you confused what I said, badly.



I'm sorry, I'm lost on what the failings of the public school system have to do with this discussion. Are they swearing that they're right? Or are they too lazy/inefficient to change the curriculum?
Did you go to a public school? Of course they swear they're right.

As for the solidity of scientific theories, that's all science has. It never gets any more concrete, science has no greater approval stamp than the word "theory". There is no graduation from that label.
Seriously? There is no scientific fact? No scientific law? None? I've never heard such a thing in my life.


Anyways, here's something that will amuse or offend everyone, maybe both, I found it looking for those mysterious guidelines for proving scientific fact, which I'm told does not exist.
The Theory of Evolution is not a scientific law or a law of biology. A scientific law must be 100% correct. Failure to meet only one challenge proves the law is wrong. This web page will prove that the Theory of Evolution fails many challenges, not simply one. The Theory of Evolution will never become a law of science because it is wrought with errors. This is why it is called a theory, instead of a law.

The process of natural selection is not an evolutionary process. The DNA in plants and animals allows selective breeding to achieve desired results. Dogs are a good example of selective breeding. The DNA in all dogs has many regressive traits. A desired trait can be produced in dogs by selecting dogs with a particular trait to produce offspring with that trait. This specialized selective breeding can continue for generation after generation until a breed of dog is developed. This is the same as the "survival of the fittest" theory of the evolutionists. Many different types of dogs can be developed this way, but they can never develop a cat by selectively breeding dogs. Natural selection can never extend outside of the DNA limit. DNA cannot be changed into a new species by natural selection. Evolution not a scientific law and no species has ever been proven to have evolved in any way. The same process of selective breeding is done with flowers, fruits and vegetables. New variations of the species are possible, but a new species has never been developed by science. In fact, the most modern laboratories are unable to produce a left-hand protein as found in humans and animals.

If natural selection were true, Eskimos would have fur to keep warm, but they don't. They are just as hairless and everyone else. If natural selection were true, humans in the tropics would have silver, reflective skin to help them keep cool, but they don't. They have black skin, just the opposite of what the theory of natural selection would predict. If natural selection were true, humans at northern latitudes would have black skin, but they have white skin instead, except for the Eskimos with skin that is half way between white and black. Many evolutionist argue that melanin is a natural sunscreen that evolved in a greater amount to protect dark skinned people who live near the Equator. They simply ignore the fact that dark skinned Eskimos live north of the Arctic Circle. Melanin in the skin is not a sound argument in favor of evolution. The theory of natural selection is wrong because it cannot create something in the DNA that wasn't there in the beginning.

The cheetah in Africa is an example of an animal in the cat family with very limited variety in the DNA. Each cheetah looks like an identical twin. The cheetah DNA is so identical that the skin from one cheetah can be grafted into another cheetah without any rejection by the body.
from this site: http://www.biblelife.org/evolution.htm
 
The Theory of Evolution will never become a law of science because it is wrought with errors. This is why it is called a theory, instead of a law.
Oh cheese and rice. This is stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid. We’ve been over this a million times – you can’t “graduate” from a theory to a law. They are fundamentally different concepts. The laws of gravitation tell you what to expect: if a happens, then b will happen as a result. The theory of gravity attempts to explain why we observe the laws of gravity.

This is either pure ignorance of simple definitions, or deliberately misleading.
 
that's why it was funny he didn't metion them.

That's why I thought it was funny that you were claiming that dinosaurs needed to fly if they had feathers - considering the science is claiming that they're closely related to a flightless bird with feathers....

I'm looking now, but seriously, you don't believe in scientific law or fact?

Scientific law and fact are two separate things. There is only one piece of knowledge that I believe cannot be questioned. All other knowledge can be called into question. So when I'm asked whether I believe in evolution to the same extent that others believe in God, the answer is no.

Did you go to a public school? Of course they swear they're right.

I went to a Catholic school, and I went to a public school. Either school would have/did admit that their texts were out of date.

Seriously? There is no scientific fact? No scientific law? None? I've never heard such a thing in my life.

I don't know what you mean by scientific fact. If you mean evidence, yes there is such a thing. But anything that anyone claims is a scientific fact can be called into question. Every piece of sensory data or knowledge can be called into question.

Scientific law does exist. But it doesn't exist the way you think. A theory will never become a law, because laws and theories are very different things. I've explained this to you before in this thread - I guess you chose to either forget or not read it. Would you like me to explain it again?

Anyways, here's something that will amuse or offend everyone, maybe both,

That article is confused and wrong on many levels. Not the least of which is the notion of scientific law and theory.
 
So... you're saying more people need to be run out of there? I say fire the reviewers as well.

Broaden their views to include non-scientific explanations? Broaden their views to ignore evidence? It's a research publication.
I can only assume you read this by your reactions, so I will ask: did he give it any form of scientific approach consistent with a research paper?
 
Unfortunately I cannot access the contentious article in question (as it was withdrawn by the journal) but the article you cite (significantly dated before the Dover trail, in Dec. 2005) was written by a very prominent creationist, Stephen C. Meyer, Program Director of the "Center for Science and Culture" of The Discovery Institute (arguably the leading Creationist movement in the US) and co-founder of the Intelligent Design movement!

I am reading a detailed review of the article, however, and also have found some evidence to suggest that Sternberg's case was not quite as harsh as the Washington Post article is leading us to believe. Not only was Sternberg not an employee of the Smithsonian (which the article points out), he had already tendered his resignation as editor of said journal before the article was even published...
 
I can only assume you read this by your reactions, so I will ask: did he give it any form of scientific approach consistent with a research paper?

The thesis is non-scientific. No I have not read the paper in question.
 
Read it and weep...

A brief critique is offered here

I liked this bit of the critique...

A central claim of Meyer’s is that novel genes have too much “CSI” to be produced by evolution. The first problem with this is that Meyer does not demonstrate that genes have CSI under Dembski’s definition (see above). The second problem is that Meyer cites absolutely none of the literature documenting the origin of new genes. For example, Meyer missed the recent paper in Current Opinion in Genetics and Development with the unambiguous title, “Evolution of novel genes.” The paper and 183 related papers can be found here. Many other references can be found linked from here.

Ouch...
 
The thesis is non-scientific. No I have not read the paper in question.
I just think you may have been assuming based on a prejudice.


But having seen TM's post you may have been justified.

And looking at his sources, they seem a bit biased to start. I think he may have been attempting science but failed.
 
I just think you may have been assuming based on a prejudice.

The fact that he's advocating intelligent design, an explanation that is essentially untestable and offers no evidence, indicates to me that his paper is not science.

It's fine to attempt to poke holes in evolution, but to advance an explanation that isn't based on evidence simply doesn't belong in scientific literature.
 
There's something highly ironic about ID's attempt to be taken seriously as a scientific discipline by attempting to gain credibility by bending the rules like this. The amount of scientific, peer-reviewed journals with articles that propose ID as a credible explanation of anything is approximately nil, yet the desire to be included in such journals is clearly the goal of a movement which, unfortunately for them, is inherently anti-scientific from tip to toe.

It's a timely reminder, in the light of the new movie by Ben Stein, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" that the reasons for the exclusion of ID from academia and scientific journalism is not bias or anti-theism, but simply a question of whether or not ID has earned the right to call itself 'scientific' or 'peer-reviewed'...

Ben Stein likes to portray the treatment of the ID movement as if it's proponents have been excluded from the scientific mainstream like naughty schoolboys who dared to question teacher - and that it is precisely this questioning that has got them thrown out of school. To extend the analogy, however, Stein fails to point out that the reality is that this is not why ID is rejected (simply because it questions Darwinian evolution), but because ID fails to offer a meaningful alternative explanation (or indeed any mechanistic explanation at all). ID, as a scientific theory, has not been arbitrarily or blindly "excluded" from anywhere - but has actively failed to reach even the most basic requirements of a scientific theory. So far as science does not address the "Why?" questions about origins etc., it does address the "How?" questions - and ID does neither. When the question is "How do you explain the presence of modern day species on Earth?" the answer has to be mechanistic - it must explain (or at the very least attempt to explain) how such a thing could happen. Any hypothesis (like ID) which is entirely based on why another explanation is wrong is, by definition, not in itself of any use at all...

It's fine to attempt to poke holes in evolution, but to advance an explanation that isn't based on evidence simply doesn't belong in scientific literature.
Fortunately, it doesn't belong there any more... although do notice that the journal will continue to pay the price for the indiscretion of its former editor by being forever associated with this masterpiece of pseudoscience, immortalised as it is on Meyer's own website.

Even the reposting of the article is nefarious - for one thing, it fails to mention that the article was withdrawn and that it is no longer even in the journal it so proudly espouses:

On August 4th, 2004 an extensive review essay by Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, Director of Discovery Institute's Center for Science & Culture appeared in the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington (volume 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239). The Proceedings is a peer-reviewed biology journal published at the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington D.C.

What about the bit "...and was withdrawn from said journal as the article was not subject to the normal peer-review process"...

The article is also handily relabeled "May, 2007" - somewhat misleading, but no doubt deliberate nevertheless..

Due to an unusual number of inquiries about the article, Dr. Meyer, the copyright holder, has decided to make the article available now in HTML format on this website.
Again (as seems to be Meyer's modus operandi) it's not what is being said so much as what is not being said... "And this is the only place you can find the article because the original article was withdrawn and is no longer published on the journals own website, unlike the vast majority of other articles the same journal has published in it's 122 year history..."
 
That's why I thought it was funny that you were claiming that dinosaurs needed to fly if they had feathers - considering the science is claiming that they're closely related to a flightless bird with feathers....
Quote me saying dinosaurs needed to fly if they had feathers. Or, read a post before you reply to it.
And I just went over this with Niky, which means your head is lodged deep - I said I wouldn't expect them to, and that was before anybody I had seen said anything about feathers actually being on dinosaurs. Really, there's a whole discussion in here, you should read it maybe.



Scientific law and fact are two separate things. There is only one piece of knowledge that I believe cannot be questioned. All other knowledge can be called into question. So when I'm asked whether I believe in evolution to the same extent that others believe in God, the answer is no.
I put in bold the only part of this that is not a run-on. Yes, you are right, scientific law and fact are different. Who said they were the same? I know I didn't.
Read before you post.



I went to a Catholic school, and I went to a public school. Either school would have/did admit that their texts were out of date.
is that good or bad?



I don't know what you mean by scientific fact. If you mean evidence, yes there is such a thing. But anything that anyone claims is a scientific fact can be called into question. Every piece of sensory data or knowledge can be called into question.
Really? there are no scientific facts? then why bother stating that --- and I quote "Scientific law and fact are two seperate things"? Why would you say that if scientific fact does not exist? Is it not scientific fact that testes produce sperm? Is it not scientific fact that my heart pumps blood? can't these things be scientifically proven? How about anything else?

Scientific law does exist. But it doesn't exist the way you think. A theory will never become a law, because laws and theories are very different things. I've explained this to you before in this thread - I guess you chose to either forget or not read it. Would you like me to explain it again?
Quote me saying a theory can become a law. a theory can become a fact though.
It would benefit you greatly to read and comprehend posts before you respond.
Better yet, just highlight my words instead of trying to type in what you think (or want) them to mean.

As for the solidity of scientific theories, that's all science has. It never gets any more concrete, science has no greater approval stamp than the word "theory". There is no graduation from that label.
If science only had theories, it wouldn't be taken seriously by anyone. It would be as important to general populous as phillosophical discussions.

That article is confused and wrong on many levels. Not the least of which is the notion of scientific law and theory.
Are you saying you didn't find it the slightest bit amusing?
But notice how the science side bites into semantics now.

There are some unarguable truths in there, no matter how angry it makes anyone.
 
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