Creation vs. Evolution

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A Dutch professor is creating some waves:

The END of creationism, Dutch professor says

Prof. dr. Ellen van Wolde from the Radboud university says that god didn't create the heaven and the earth as is writen in genisis.
After studying the original hebrew text again, she says that there are errors in the translation from the original text into the text as we now know it.

She says that what originaly was intended is that god devided the heaven and earth from the sea. The error occurred when the hebrew word 'bara' was falsely translated into 'create' where it should have been 'devide'

Her theory is that there was already a earth, but completely coverred with water where creatures lived in. God then devided the land and the heaven from the sea.

Source (dutch)

Edit> Bablefish translation

All translations, comments and study say the same: the bible starts creation with god. Wrongly, professor thinks Ellen van Wolde. „God are not the inventor. God created the sky and the ground. How differing Dutch bible translations are also, in the reproduction of the first words of the bible are them striking unanimous. And nevertheless are possible Wolde that opening sense no longer, find Ellen van.

Because god did not create. Van Wolde (1954) pronounces afternoon its oration; since beginning this year has worked she as professor interpretation of the Old Testament for the Radboud university in Nijmegen. She hopes that its findings cause a firm debate. Because its conclusions concerning the ouverture of the bible book genesis are not only new, but touch also the heart of many believers. „The traditional picture of god the inventor is intolerable. Moreover Van Wolde still a familiar element obtains from Jewish-Christian theology from under. „The monotheistic picture of the one god, who is not correct.

There is talk of a god collection, with gods and oppergod. The title of its inaugural reason to the begin' is ambiguous. „In the beginning are the Jew title of genesis, and want start Van Wolde again at its overstap of the university of Tilburg to those of Nijmegen as text outrigger. In its reason she has incorporated, very uncommon, a credo, an academic credo: „I believe in uninhibited read and live, in always start again, in yourself empty of earlier conceptions, each time again everything as new it to perceive. Van Wolde: „I want something select without having the judgement already ready, without laying the mal of the tradition on the text. Thus she ran up against the opening feathers of the bible book on which she went up ever.

Preciezer: On the verb bara. That means according to everyone scheppen', but for Van Wolde that translation no longer satisfied. „It was not correct simply. At the verb god the subject was (god created…), followed by always two or more suffering voorwerpen'. why god did not create one thing or animal, but always several? Because, determined Van Wolde, god did not create, but separated. The ground of the sky, the country of the sea, the sea monsters of the birds and the gekrioel on the ground. „There was therefore already water, there were already sea monsters. God does not make sometimes the something, but sky and the ground. The usual idea of scheppen-uit-niets, creatio ex nihilo, are a large misunderstanding. That hypothese was, as Van Wolde says it, my first spark, in June 2008, in my studeerkamer'. the second spark followed in the autumn. „I said against mezelf: that can you, however, think that god can scheidde', but the priest writers of the Old Testament instead of creating scheiden' has meant? Were appropriate that in their world view? Van Wolde wondered himself still something. „Why I would be the first which gets truth in a lot of centuries text explanation above table? Van Wolde gives himself the answer. „I am possible that because there for me as a research worker resources now so many available is.

Dictionaries, and analysis methods to forget: new expenditure of knife texts. Older had been still stamped by the biblical conceptions of the scientists. Now that science has emancipated, let us get we improve insight in those texts. And from that appears that also in other creation tales from the Near East god-driven separates the sky of the ground. To Dutch profession-enjoyed Van Wolde still has given up nothing (say it is this way nice: I come in with something, and then at zwijgen'), on the international forum she has the first responses already, however. „Over two weeks appear the Journal or the Study or the Old will. There specialists have read it, they found it renewing and persuading. They wanted publish it rapidly. It becomes opening Article - a ereplaats in that Journal. How have people been created? Then enters Van Wolde in its study extended. „Let people make our, stand there. Van Wolde: „God and the gods have been involved in making people who existed up to at that moment not yet. For that make a another verb has been used, asa. That much scheppen'. mean but once people there is, god goes scheiden'. therefore not: God people created as its spitting image (NBV), but: „God made a separation between people who are its picture and itself and he made a separation between male and female. In its book Van Wolde explores an intriguing passage in a another bible book, of the prophet Jesaja, concerning god whom it slightly and obscurity, peace and it makes angry. „This have caused large problems in biblical theology, from Calvijn up to present, because here would stand that god himself has created obscurity and it angry. According to Van Wolde god not the author of obscurity and it is angry, but the one which „slightly form it and of obscurity separate, peace makes and of angry separates.

What is the impact of Van Wolde remarkable ideas? „A god as omnipotent, the inventor who makes everything with an aim, demand new doordenking, say them carefully. More positively she is concerning the picture which has strongly occupied Christian philosophy, which of god as an inventor from nothing, as the first veroorzaker of everything. „Which proposition has been falsified. Van Wolde compares the possible far-reaching impact of its text interpretation in theology with the insight that Charles Darwin acquired step by step.

„Still started it with a first point of doubt, in 1842, then he god for inventor kept, but saw that there was a variety to types. Gradually Darwin dared already more far-reaching draw conclusions. All gedoe in this drone winning years concerning creation or evolution, with as curious peak signing by Andries Knevel of a declaration in which he said good-bye to the creationisme, takes off Van Wolde laughings. „Poor Knevel. All that fight for nothing are, because god is not at all the inventor of sky and ground. The oudtestamentica realise themselves that its findings painful can be for believers which nourish correctly that inventor. „Perhaps staircase I mezelf, however, on the heart. I consider themselves as believer, and that inventor was me dear, as an idea of faith. That wants keep faith I.
 
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Her theory is that there was already a earth, but completely coverred with water where creatures lived in. God then devided the land and the heaven from the sea.

Surely that's a massive contradiction. Saying that the earth was here (where did it come from?) and then to say that the water and creatures were already here hints that they were created in some way.
 
Surely that's a massive contradiction. Saying that the earth was here (where did it come from?) and then to say that the water and creatures were already here hints that they were created in some way.
Not a contradiction. It just does not say when or how the earth came to be. Could still have been created at an earlier (and undescribed) stage or it came to be after the Big Bang. It does however give a way out of the discussion about how old the earth is.

If I were a religious person, I would be thrilled.
 
Creationism has been proven wrong thousands of billions of times. If you think Darwin is wrong and you are reading this, I have one question: how the hell do you know how to use a computer? I have seen no solid proof that the Book of Genesis is 100% correct. If you force your opinions and religious views on people, that makes you no better than Adolf "my son is Mahmoud Ahmedinejabad" Hitler, because forcing your opinions on someone is basically fascism.
 
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Teaching creationism is more retarded than the name of your granny's Kia.

Wow. That was a truly well-reasoned, thoughtful addition to this three-hundred-page thread. Thank you for your contribution.
 
way i see it, in life you either believe something or you dont, dont waste life arguing about it, i believe in god and jesus but do have trouble with genesis and that's that for me. Whether there is a god or afterlife we wont know until we die. Religious folk should not mock non believers and vice versa.
 
way i see it, in life you either believe something or you dont
While I agree that mocking is not the bast option (not that it really happens here) I don't agree with this statement. Opinions change, especially when it comes to hard-to-understand concepts.
 
Just a heads up to UK members. There is a new 10 part documentary starting tonight on BBC 1 called Life with David Attenborough. It looks amazing.
 
Gah. I'll miss the first fifteen minutes or so as it starts when I leave work. Ah well, I guess that's what iPlayer was invented for...
 
Just a heads up to UK members. There is a new 10 part documentary starting tonight on BBC 1 called Life with David Attenborough. It looks amazing.
👍 Cheers, I would probably have missed that but for this reminder.
 
I don't know how many of you got a chance to watch "Discovering Ardi" last night on the Discovery Channel but it was amazing. I'm sure they will replay it again at some point this week, at least here in the states. I don't know if you guys get the Discovery Channel in the UK.
 
I don't know how many of you got a chance to watch "Discovering Ardi" last night on the Discovery Channel but it was amazing. I'm sure they will replay it again at some point this week, at least here in the states. I don't know if you guys get the Discovery Channel in the UK.

We do, and I forgot to watch it :grumpy: Will have to catch it when it next appears.
 
We do, and I forgot to watch it :grumpy: Will have to catch it when it next appears.

It's the Discovery Channel and if the UK one is anything like the US one they will replay the programme 9,000 times over the course of the next few weeks. It's both great and annoying that they do that.
 
iPlayer...


A question, I have been pondering about Evolution. I completely get how mutations ocur within Sexual Reproduction, but in Asexual Reproduction, with a clone of the parental genes, how do genetic mutations occur?
 
Mutations are not combinations. Your half-sister is not a mutant, or at least not because her father is a different person from your father, resulting in a different gene combination.

So, you actually don't completely get how mutations occur. . . . :)

Mutations are, in essence, badly copied DNA strands. Something gets removed, added, shifted, whatever. Sexual or asexual has nothing to do with it.
 
It can happen even faster in asexual reproduction. One mutated unicellular organism is more survivable than others and reproduces more.

-

Taken from Reed Richard's testimony and demonstration before Congress on the Superhuman Registration Act: How do we define a superhuman or a mutant? What percentage of difference from the norm counts as "mutant"?

Every single organism and generation represents at least a slight mutation or imperfection in the copying of genetic information. That's life.
 
Mutations are not combinations. Your half-sister is not a mutant, or at least not because her father is a different person from your father, resulting in a different gene combination.

So, you actually don't completely get how mutations occur. . . . :)

Mutations are, in essence, badly copied DNA strands. Something gets removed, added, shifted, whatever. Sexual or asexual has nothing to do with it.

Ah, that makes even more sense!👍
 
Flip, I missed Life tonight... I knew that would happen...

iPlayer...

I just watched it on iPlayer on my PS3 - looks great, even on a big screen. As for the episode, it's superb - the stalk-eyed fly is just incredible and the footage is simply stunning throughout. If the rest of the series is up to this standard (which it almost certainly will be), we are in for a real treat.
 
Didn't realise Flying Fish flew for so long! 200 metres! That's certainly more than jumping out of water and flapping some fins. Not like those flying lizards, which glide rather than fly.

Beautiful show, one for the Blu-Ray collection me thinks.
 
I just watched it on iPlayer on my PS3 - looks great, even on a big screen. As for the episode, it's superb - the stalk-eyed fly is just incredible and the footage is simply stunning throughout. If the rest of the series is up to this standard (which it almost certainly will be), we are in for a real treat.

If it comes anywhere near how good Planet Earth was I'll be saving up for the eventual DVD box set...

Just watching episode #1 now, actually. Absolutely brilliant, as expected. The intelligence of some species amazes me, especially those dolphins at the beginning and the monkeys using tools to crack open nuts. It makes you wonder whether any of the current species of monkeys will eventually evolve over hundreds of thousands and millions years to human-like beings capable of human-unique skills like invention.

And I never knew Ostriches were that much bigger than Cheetahs...
 
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If you see the behind the scenes on the making of planet earth, they said that one camera guy waited like 2 months or something in a rainforest to capture this bird's mating rituals (in the episode, the segment lasts about 2-3 mins)..... I think he deserves the patience award of the century!
Planet earth watched in anything less than 1080i/p just dosent make sense though... in standard definition, it becomes just another nature show...
 
Life is going to be an awesome series. I especially liked the part with the Cheetahs hunting in packs and like everyone else I was amazed at the size of those Ostriches.

Also loved the frog carrying the tadpoles to seperate water sources to increase the probability of them surviving. They definitely need to scrap soaps like Eastenders and use the shows budget to fund more educational shows. Can't wait for next week.
 
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Haha, nice idea - given that the first episode of 'Life' was subtitled "Challenges of Life", EastEnders could be used as an example of when it all goes horribly wrong...
 
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