Creation vs. Evolution

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Beyond that, addressing the institution rather than the entity: I challenge anyone to name for me a single religious evil that couldn't have been avoided assuming religion didn't exist, or a single religious good that couldn't occur without it.

Genocide? While the persecution of the Jews was made easier by the rift between Judaism and Christianity, it was driven more by racial prejudice than anything else.

Racism begets genocide, slavery, war, imperialism. Religion does, too, but it does so more between religious people of different races than between religious people of the same race or ethnicity.

It's hard to point to good things that couldn't occur without religion... as it's probably impossible to prove absolutes. Suffice to say, an inclusive religion like Christianity actually makes it easier for ethnicities to get along... because it allows for "Gentiles" to be saved... not only the "chosen" people. But in the same vein, it's also used as a pacifier to allow Christian nations to control occupied territories... so it's probably a wash.
 
Christian or not I think everyone should accept evolution as hard fact.
I invite anyone who is against evolution to actually read it up as it does make a lot of sense I know that many people see evolution as gods tool of creation.
Every human being is different because of evolution.
Think about it this way... (purely hypothetical of course)
Lets say that society collapses right?
And all the worlds food supply bar 1 type of animal and 1 type of plant remember this is purely hypothetical.
the animal is extremely fast and only comes out at night
the plant lives 100ft underwater

So people who are genetically fast runners and well developed leg muscles are able to chase down the animal but of those only people with larger than average pupils and/or more rods in their eyes than average (ie: colourblind people) are more successful in the hunt. Thus they get more food, they don't go hungry and they are healthier.
In the case of the first plant people with smaller ear openings (harder for water to enter ears) and a larger lung capacity (this trait would also mean more distance runners) are able to eat thus they aren't hungry and are overall more healthy. Therefore by being more healthy they are more likely to reproduce with each other and are less likely to die off (this is simple survival of the fittest stuff) So these traits are passed on to their children some of whom display these traits others don't.
Remember people without these traits may still be able to survive however it is much harder therefore less desirable so it may take thousands to millions of years before the entire race can run the hundred metres in under 12 seconds a large lung capacity meaning slightly larger chests and excellent night vision so perhaps larger eyes with massive pupils. These are just some POTENTIAL traits that these hypothetical humans could have.

You can attribute the declining health of the human race to the fact that we no longer need to hunt and grow our own food and when you get sick you go to the hospital rather than die. I know it sounds cruel but nature is harsh like that and society is the only way that the human population is the size that it is today. I hope I made some sense and maybe changed a few minds
(remember the situation is hypothetical and evolution does not mean there is no creator it could have been planned this way by a deity)
I personally am an atheist but was raised christian.
I understand that humans cannot know everything therefore it is very possible that the universe did come out of nothing and that our minds simply can't comprehend that.
BUT
I will also say that because I can't know everything, I cannot prove that there isn't a god either because I just don't know. If there is one though I don't think any religion has got it right.

Cheers
Kings
 
Genocide? While the persecution of the Jews was made easier by the rift between Judaism and Christianity, it was driven more by racial prejudice than anything else.

Racism begets genocide, slavery, war, imperialism. Religion does, too, but it does so more between religious people of different races than between religious people of the same race or ethnicity.

The plight of the Jews is certainly not limited to conflicts with Christianity but you're right about its origin being more geopolitical than strictly religious... which again begs the question, what religious evil would be inevitable without religion? As you point out, Genocide as an idea spawns from myriad sources. I'm speaking of acts or ideas specifically perpetrated by religion.

It's hard to point to good things that couldn't occur without religion... as it's probably impossible to prove absolutes. Suffice to say, an inclusive religion like Christianity actually makes it easier for ethnicities to get along... because it allows for "Gentiles" to be saved... not only the "chosen" people. But in the same vein, it's also used as a pacifier to allow Christian nations to control occupied territories... so it's probably a wash.

There are innumerable secular institutions that are perfectly capable of facilitating cooperation between ethnicities. Beyond that though, you're addressing ethnic strife that, if addressed by religion, probably finds much of its origin in religion. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Shinto, and many others draw much of their doctrine from slavery and enforced social hierarchy. I'd say the balance tips well away from a 'wash'.

As for absolutes, I grant your point. I said basically as much myself earlier; we aren't making arguments about absolutes, we're discussing historical causal likelihoods. I probably should have phrased my "challenge" more carefully in that respect.


You can never prove or disprove a faith, as it's based on faith and not facts.

Granted already. We can, however, subject faiths to examination of their likelihood, modern relevancy, and moral quality.
 
I'm speaking of acts or ideas specifically perpetrated by religion.

Most I can think of are pogroms and witch-burning. Which can happen without religion, but still require superstitious beliefs, which are similar.

There are innumerable secular institutions that are perfectly capable of facilitating cooperation between ethnicities.

Yes, but it takes mutual interest... a way to identify 'different peoples' as 'one people'. It's hard not to consider patriotism as a form of religion.... a belief in something abstract.

Beyond that though, you're addressing ethnic strife that, if addressed by religion, probably finds much of its origin in religion. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Shinto, and many others draw much of their doctrine from slavery and enforced social hierarchy. I'd say the balance tips well away from a 'wash'.

Not so sure about that. There are many cases of tribal war and family feuds without a strong religious reason for them.

Christianity itself is not pro-slavery... it's Hebraic passages that are often used to justify it. Again... many atrocities committed in the name of that specific religion are committed for other reasons, and religion is merely used to legitimize them.

As for absolutes, I grant your point. I said basically as much myself earlier; we aren't making arguments about absolutes, we're discussing historical causal likelihoods. I probably should have phrased my "challenge" more carefully in that respect.

We weren't there. We wouldn't know. It'd be interesting to find out how much historical strife could have been avoided without religion. I'm willing to bet: a lot. But that still leaves some of the big ones there... and some of the others may have still happened anyway, but in a different way.
 
+1 Rep For Texas!

Judge tosses creationists' effort to offer master's degrees

A federal judge has thrown out a lawsuit by a creationism think tank and school that attempted to force the state of Texas to allow it to offer master's degrees in science education.

U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks of Austin found no merit in the institute's claims and criticized its legal documents as "overly verbose, disjointed, incoherent, maundering and full of irrelevant information.

The Institute for Creation Research's graduate school, which is based in California, has been offering master's degrees in that state since 1981, according to its website. Aimed at aspiring Christian schoolteachers, the curriculum critiques evolution and champions a literal interpretation of the biblical account of creation.​

Crazy, man.
 
U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks of Austin found no merit in the institute's claims and criticized its legal documents as "overly verbose, disjointed, incoherent, maundering and full of irrelevant information.

Incoherent? Maundering? Who'da thunkit? :lol:
 
@ LeftyWright, from the "Do You Believe In God?" thread... I've responded to your post, as per your request, but have put my response in a more relevant thread. As per Famine's suggestion, I do hope you will read atleast some of this thread to get a firmer understanding/appreciation of other opinions on this most fascinating of topics. But anyway, back to your post. I have taken the liberty of reproducing it here, and have added my own comments throughout, highlighted in red, or via the strike mark facility.

First one has to understand that in order for the whole religion thing to work there has to be a little thing called “ Faith “ since no one can prove what was written so long ago without faith, a case for the existence of God has to have that as the primary keystone. [But having faith in science is presumably not allowed - not that it is necessary anyway...] What does it take to prove anything? Well you generally need “Facts“. Facts are the whole basis for science unless you’re talking about “Global Warming”, Darwinism (evolutionary biology), or Space Aliens. Science will accept any possibility for life except for one that is guided. [Except this is patently untrue - science will accept any possibility, so long as the "facts" i.e. the evidence, supports it] Now as in your case since you have stated that you need proof then by definition you must be a skeptic.

If proof of God is what you’re looking for Liz then you have to understand “intelligent design” and how it is a counter point to the whole atheist belief system that is bolstered by Darwinism. Intelligent Design is a study of patterns in nature [and so is evolutionary biology, although evolutionary biology uses the scientific method to test and validate itself as a bona fide scientific theory, and is not merely a way of interpreting all and every piece of information in the context of a presupposed idea involving the activity of a possibly non-existent supernatural entity], Darwin tried to prove that the changes within a species not only leads to new species but to every species and the evidence for that claim is totally lacking [is written in every genome in the natural world and, thanks to modern scientific methodologies, is readily accessible to the interested researcher], where as Darwinism has to do with some concept that orients it’s self around life starting [* see the comment below that directly contradicts this] from a spontaneous emergence from a primordial soup AKA from mud to life, or another theory was that life possibly started on the backs of crystals. Maybe it was the alien seeding method…lol…

Darwin never stated how life began [<-- *yes, this one], so isn&#8217;t that what has to be looked at first? [When it comes to explaining how new species come from older ones, no. Evolutionary biology has come to the conclusion that new species must have come from older ones, in order to explain the otherwise inexplicable similarities between all lifeforms. It is a logical extension of this - but not a prerequisite for understanding the process of evolution itself - that all life arose from a common ancestor, whatever that may have been] When Darwin talked about the common cell back in 1859 he considered it to be quite a simple design, when in fact it is as vast as the galaxy [It's all relative - single cells are relatively simple yet are still highly complex. The basic processes of cell division and replication are not very complex at all - and have been well known for decades.]. For the world&#8217;s first single cell organism to have taken place you had to have a perfectly aligned string of 250 proteins all in the correct order for life to function, approximately one in one trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion for life to have taken place on it's own [but only if all of the parts arrived on the scene simultaneously and there was no such thing as cumulative selection. There is such a thing as cumulative selection.]. For the understanding of the cell to be dealt with, it has to be looked at in a scientific manor just like Darwinism [true], but because of the unimaginable complexity of it, the Darwinist have to destroy the intelligent design aspect of it by weaving it into creationism, thusly demonizing it as taboo [ID fails on it's own merit - or lack of it; Evolutionary biology stands as a bona fide scientific theory that is neither seriously challenged or affected by any and all other competing ideas (testable or not), including ID/creationism] and painting it with the complexity of a randomness luck of the draw. The founders of early modern science Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei most of these scientist not only believed in God but their belief actually made it easier to do science. [So what does this say about your earlier statement that 'Science' has no interest in considering the possibility of divine intervention... to use your own phraseology, it's 'testicular'. Science always has and probably always will attempt to address the possibility that God not only exists, but that His actions are demonstrable and, most importantly, testable. Modern science stands on the shoulders of these great giants, but it doesn't mean that we must accept that they were always rights about everything. Indeed, even Darwin believed in God for a bit. Evolution theory stands on it's own merit - and is only as strong as the evidence that supports it. The idea that life is/was designed or being controlled by an unseen divine hand is an idea that fails on it's own merit - deprived of any supporting evidence, and most certainly not as a result of a lack of research.]

A belief in Darwinism means that we live, we die, then were gone with no kind of deep meaning in life [Nonsense]. Case in point Hitler&#8217;s Mein Kampf [again with the Nazi references - seriously man, this gets old quick], he used Darwinistic Eugenics to devalue life and we know what that meant, a decrease in the surplus population [Some people do indeed use science to do bad things - but that doesn't make the science bad. Einstein is not to blame for Hiroshima. Newton is not to blame for the fact that the Twin Towers fell to the ground. And Toyota's engineers are not to blame that the Taliban seem to love their Land Cruisers]. At some point you have to be a realist in this whole God thing, either you think your existence is something that is greater than a rock and has a chance that your spirit will go on after your mortality is realized or the human experience is no diffeent than a retarded fish frog. Retarded fish frog pt 2

My research [?!?!] was taken from the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, If anyone has the testicular fortitude to look at the greatest case for intelligent design then check it out, it will rock your Atheistic sensibilities. :lol::D:lol::crazy::lol: [No thanks, I'll stick to the scientific literature.]

Intelligent Design is like Holy Water to a Vampire [and like reading other people's Facebook updates about Farmville to a scientist - pointless and devoid of all meaning.]
 
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Exactly
He who knows best knows how little he knows - Thomas Jefferson.

Actually I think this Idea was expressed centuries before by Socrates:

"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."
Socrates

(Written by Plato,since there is no manuscripts-known-written by Socrates own hand:" As to Socrates' personal philosophy - he left no writings of his own so we have to rely on sources such as Plato and Xenophon, who knew him and his philosophy personally, for information."-quoted from a Socrates biography)


Amongst many other thoughts he also expressed this one which reflects my POV in the present subject:

I hold that to need nothing is divine, and the less a man needs the nearer does he approach divinity.
 
lol...
imgad


any of you seen this advertising banner on their page...

I wonder what this is all about... the latest counter-strike from the anti-evolution movement?

2013... very appropriately after the 2012 end of the world (belief from another culture that isn't christian lol)
 
lol...
imgad


any of you seen this advertising banner on their page...

I wonder what this is all about... the latest counter-strike from the anti-evolution movement?

2013... very appropriately after the 2012 end of the world (belief from another culture that isn't christian lol)

Where did you see that? On GTP?? I sincerely hope not :indiff:
 
I don't think it is - Thunderbolts doesn't have ad banners like that. Presumably Google Ads picks up on the topic of a forum and places such ads in relevant threads. I notice we're also running Scientology ad banners too :scared:
 
Always found ValueClick to be better myself, though GTP gets enough UV's to be getting specialist companies interested...[/offtopic]

Often forget this place has ads, Premium ftw.
 
Where did you see that? On GTP?? I sincerely hope not :indiff:

Right here in this thread... at the very top of this page between the GTP general tabs and the messages of thread.

Not all the time, but it's seem to appropriately appears here only, but not in any other threads...
 
Ok, i just came here to see any update, and look what i found on top of the page as banner...

so i did a quick screen capture...:

For those of us without Premium account, this is the junk we see, the equivalent of any male enhancement products, pure misleading materials:



PS: i dont use any male enhancement products, it's just common knowledge that those things dont work ;) :P :lol:
 
Can we think of any reasons why a mathematician might prefer atheism, and an electrical engineer not so much?

Respectfully,
Dotini
 
Can we think of any reasons why a mathematician might prefer atheism, and an electrical engineer not so much?

Because an electical engineer is more likely to have had a large electrical shock at some point in their lives and it affected their brain?...
 
Can we think of any reasons why a mathematician might prefer atheism, and an electrical engineer not so much?

Respectfully,
Dotini

:nervous:

Electrical Engineer = magician
Electrician = just a technician who plays with electricity , and therefore more prone to receiving the juice... being at the receiving end, he or she would be more scared of dying, and therefore would more often pray to GOD for safety...

But that's just a mental thing...

I know some Electrical Engineer who are very devoted and religious as well...
Just as some Aeronautical Engineer who fear to fly ?! :nervous:



Having said that, those who believe in God don't live dangerously enough...

you rely too much on safety margin....
 
Well, yeah, except for the logic fantasies and complete lack of science . . . .

Didnt go the the website, did you? Even if you're 100% serious I said "interesting", not factual. Your response=fail.

They take accepted science and the jump to possible conclusions about how it relates to a christian God existing. Its interesting stuff and I didnt say I buy into it or that you should.

Besides the whole argument of god or no god is illogical and lacking in science. Where is the PROOF that a higher power doesnt exist and where is the PROOF one does? Dismount the high horse please. Your beliefs dont make you the smartest man in the world.
 
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