Creation vs. Evolution

[wfooshee]

That was . . . . . cool.

Rather like the one I saw some time back where rising ocean levels would be solved by coastal populations taking buckets to the ocean, filling, them, and taking the buckets home and pouring the water down the drain. Missing a few connections there . . . . In several ways.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Oh cripes, where do I start?: http://twitpic.com/7z17zc

Incidentally, that chap's twitter account is hilarious.

That probably was the whole point. I know of one person who use to make ridiculous online statements like that just to see if anyone take him serious.

 

[homeforsummer]

That probably was the whole point. I know of one person who use to make ridiculous online statements like that just to see if anyone take him serious.

Worryingly, I think he's serious. It's one thing wanting to believe in God, it's another attempting to use the most appalling pseudoscience to try and prove well-explored theories wrong.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Worryingly, I think he's serious. It's one thing wanting to believe in God, it's another attempting to use the most appalling pseudoscience to try and prove well-explored theories wrong.

So you think that someone that could do the math yet didn't know anything the cycles of water and the fact there haven't been 6 billion people on the Earth for 3 billion years? I wouldn't be surprised if he was an atheist.

 

[homeforsummer]

So you think that someone that could do the math yet didn't know anything the cycles of water and the fact there hasn't been 6 billion people on the Earth for 3 billion years?

Of course I do. I'm surprised you don't. If anything has shaped the apparently poor attitude of some atheists/evolutionists towards religious types, it's assuming views such as that guy's are a lot more common. That guy is pretty much the stereotypical creationist, unfair as that may be to people less extreme.

There are still plenty of people who believe the Earth is only 5,000 years old or thereabouts, and what this guy is talking about isn't particularly far away from that. Using very, very flawed science isn't uncommon either - it's what the Flat Earth lot do.

 

[DK]

^ He's also ignoring the rest of the organisms on Earth.

Just checked his account. This scares me:

Onward Christian soldiers!

Whenever I hear that, I imagine a bunch of bat-🤬 crazy zealots.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

Of course I do. I'm surprised you don't. If anything has shaped the apparently poor attitude of some atheists/evolutionists towards religious types, it's assuming views such as that guy's are a lot more common. That guy is pretty much the stereotypical creationist, unfair as that may be to people less extreme.

You shouldn't base your opinion about a group of people (atheist or theist) from stuff on the internet. It's just too easy to play devil advocate on the web.

 

[homeforsummer]

You shouldn't base your opinion about a group of people (atheist or theist) from stuff on the internet. It's just too easy to play devil advocate on the web.

I don't. Many do. And chaps like the twitter guy don't do the image of theists and creationists any favours at all.

 

[Lain]

There is no such thing as "evolutionary purpose". Evolution is essentially a blind process. Any changes that increase an organism's suitability for its environment increase its chances for survival, and those which decrease suitability decrease chances of survival (or at least reproduction). Saying a species evolved "in order to" is very much putting the cart before the horse, although it may appear that way in retrospect.

I know that. By evolutionary purpose, I actually meant why the trait succeeded from evolutionary standpoint.

 

[noisiaturismo]

God created 2 Homo Sapiens... Which means the Earth, the universe and everything is around 150.000 years old, while older things clearly exist.

 

[wfooshee]

I'm not sure which is more confusing, your post or your sig. . .

Language barrier, I'm sure, but I don't see any links to any references in your post to back up your "facts."

You give a cause ("God created 2 . . . ") which has nothing to do with your stated result ("Which means . . . ,") then immediately contradict yourself ("older things clearly exist.")

 

[Adamgp]

What if both Creation AND Evolution are right?

What if God created monkeys, and humans evolved from monkeys. 💡

I think I just blew my own mind with that one.

 

[PeterJB]

What if both Creation AND Evolution are right?

What if God created monkeys, and humans evolved from monkeys. 💡

I think I just blew my own mind with that one.

That is Evolutionary Creationism, what I believe. I believe that God created the conditions for life and/or maybe the 'spark' that started it all, and that evolution is a natural process that comes from that.

 

[TankAss95]

That is Evolutionary Creationism, what I believe. I believe that God created the conditions for life and/or maybe the 'spark' that started it all, and that evolution is a natural process that comes from that.

I honestly don't know what I think of evolution.
I don't believe that life didn't just arise from the cosmic dust. I do believe there is a mind behind it all. My judgement is based on the complexity of even the most simple forms of life. I guess I just have a 'lazy mind'.

And PeterJB, what makes you believe in a personal God, rather than a deist God?

 

[PeterJB]

And PeterJB, what makes you believe in a personal God, rather than a deist God?

What's the difference?

 

[Encyclopedia]

I honestly don't know what I think of evolution.
I don't believe that life didn't just arise from the cosmic dust. I do believe there is a mind behind it all. My judgement is based on the complexity of even the most simple forms of life. I guess I just have a 'lazy mind'.

And PeterJB, what makes you believe in a personal God, rather than a deist God?

Please, Tankass. Not this again.

The theory of evolution has NOTHING to do with how life first came to be. What you're looking for is called abiogenesis.

This has been stated many times throughout this thread.

A question that will most likely be ignored: Why do you ignore so much of the replies to your posts? I thought you said you were interested in learning?

 

[TankAss95]

What's the difference?

A deist God is a God that simply made the universe. Basically he caused the Big Bang etc and just left it, he has no further interaction.
A personal God is a God which listens to prayer, and interacts with the world.

Many atheists would see a deist God as a seriously respectable discussion. A personal God though, is often a harder case to put forward. I think Albert Einstein believed in a deist God.

 

[PeterJB]

A deist God is a God that simply made the universe. Basically he caused the Big Bang etc and just left it, he has no further interaction.
A personal God is a God which listens to prayer, and interacts with the world.

Many atheists would see a deist God as a seriously respectable discussion. A personal God though, is often a harder case to put forward. I think Albert Einstein believed in a deist God.

I believe in a God that created the universe AND interacts with it. So it's a mixture for me.

 

[TankAss95]

I believe in a God that created the universe AND interacts with it. So it's a mixture for me.

Same. A deist God is a God that just started it all off, and just left it. The God in Christianity both made the universe, and is personal (he interacts with it, he can be known, etc.)

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

I honestly don't know what I think of evolution.
I don't believe that life didn't just arise from the cosmic dust.

Carbon-based life. Do some readings online about it, the conditions necessary for its existence that we have done incredible amounts of research on.

Why was there no life arising from cosmic dust currently on Mars that we know of?

The planets were formed from molten rock, ours worked out because it is the right distance from the Sun for "our kind" of life to develop on it.

Go watch some Carl Sagan and smoke a [peace pipe], your point of view will be much harder to maintain. The universe is just that incredible.

 

[leepangfu]

I'm an atheist but both theories have the same flaw. What created the thing that created the universe? Like people say the Big Bang created the universe. But what caused the Big Bang? The same with the theory of the creationists. God created the Earth. But what created God? And what created what created God? This just goes on forever.

At some point in time there should have been nothing at all and at some point there suddenly was something out of nowhere. Seems impossible to me but it isn't because the universe exists. Had some long hours thinking about it and just can't think of anything that makes sense

 

[TankAss95]

I'm an atheist but both theories have the same flaw. What created the thing that created the universe? Like people say the Big Bang created the universe. But what caused the Big Bang? The same with the theory of the creationists. God created the Earth. But what created God? And what created what created God? This just goes on forever.

At some point in time there should have been nothing at all and at some point there suddenly was something out of nowhere. Seems impossible to me but it isn't because the universe exists. Had some long hours thinking about it and just can't think of anything that makes sense

According to the Christian faith God is infinite and almighty. Part in believing in God is accepting that you cannot comprehend his wonder. He is by definition uncreated.
Basically God has no beginning or end, he is perfect. He is not made up of material, and he is not bound by time, because he created both.

I believe in God because I believe almighty power must be before everything in order for it to first exist. If we trace back the cause and effect I believe we will find no natural phenomenon to explain how something cane from nothing. All scientific theories fail when questions of origins are introduced. God is the author of science.

 

[Lain]

According to the Christian faith God is infinite and almighty. Part in believing in God is accepting that you cannot comprehend his wonder. He is by definition uncreated.
Basically God has no beginning or end, he is perfect. He is not made up of material, and he is not bound by time, because he created both.

I believe in God because I believe almighty power must be before everything in order for it to first exist. If we trace back the cause and effect I believe we will find no natural phenomenon to explain how something cane from nothing. All scientific theories fail when questions of origins are introduced. God is the author of science.

So because we haven't found a natural explanation for how everything came into existence from nothingness, it absolutely must've come into existence from a magical being who himself is infinite and unbound by time. Riiiiiight...

Maybe there's a natural phenomenon unbound by time which caused it, but is simply out of our reach for us to be able to discover due to its unbound nature. A simpler and much more likely scenario, IMHO. The idea of a God creating everything raises a lot of problems... like for instance, why did he create the universe or us? Because he was bored? Why is the universe such a bleak place for life? Why does he judge us so harsly? Does he get off on it or something? What gave him the right to be almighty? Why does the Devil and Hell exist? If God's almighty, how does the Devil have any power over us? Is he another infinite and almighty being?

Saying that his wonder is incomprehensible by us is a mere cop-out for religion to avoid having to answer these very important questions which would put serious doubt on the validity of said religion. Science, on the other hand, admits it doesn't know all the answers to the big question. And it does one better in the fact that it doesn't rest on its laurels... scientists are constantly trying to further mankind's knowledge on how the world works, in hopes that perhaps someday we'll find out the answers to the big questions.

 

[TankAss95]

So because we haven't found a natural explanation for how everything came into existence from nothingness, it absolutely must've come into existence from a magical being who himself is infinite and unbound by time.

Or maybe there's a natural phenomenon that's unbound by time which caused it, but is simply out of our reach for us to be able to discover.

I just can't understand how a mindless, chaotic universe created itself. When I read a book, I presume there is an author. When I look at all that I observe, I presume there was a creator ultimately behind it.

Science is fine within it's sphere of relevance, although no absolute truths can be found there. The problem is is that science can't explain itself. The natural laws that control nature are 'given'. To accept that these laws are given is the only way to study science. To study the natural world, you first have to have faith that the natural world is also intelligible.

I cannot prove God, but by believing that he is real everything makes sense. Part of that sense is accepting that I cannot totally understand 'how' to everything.

 

[DK]

Basically God has no beginning or end, he is perfect.

I'm gonna say 2 things:

1: Is he/she/it perfect simply because he/she/it has no beginning or end?

2: There's this philosophical argument that I read about that if something is perfect, then it cannot change state. Changing state can include doing things - you are changing your state from "inactive" to "active". Seeing as creating the universe is doing something, then God is changing state - therefore, he is not perfect.

 

[homeforsummer]

I just can't understand how a mindless, chaotic universe created itself.

Plenty of naturally occurring events are "mindless" and "chaotic", and yet things still happen. Why not the birth of the universe as we know it.

The problem is is that science can't explain itself.

You keep using this term and it makes no more sense every time you say it.

 

[leepangfu]

According to the Christian faith God is infinite and almighty. Part in believing in God is accepting that you cannot comprehend his wonder. He is by definition uncreated.
Basically God has no beginning or end, he is perfect. He is not made up of material, and he is not bound by time, because he created both.

I believe in God because I believe almighty power must be before everything in order for it to first exist. If we trace back the cause and effect I believe we will find no natural phenomenon to explain how something cane from nothing. All scientific theories fail when questions of origins are introduced. God is the author of science.

These two things seem strange to me. You say Science fails when questions of origins are introduced and from what I understand the people who believe in God explain it by saying it can't be understood. Don't see how that explains anything.

But that was not really my point. Before everything there was nothing. Absolutely nothing. No scientific things and no god. Just nothing. Nothing can explain what the hell happened then. Some people say God created something out of nothing. But how can God create something out of nothing if there is nothing, not even God. Same thing with the Big Bang. How can there be a huge explosion if there is nothing that can cause an explosion. It's just impossible to understand.

 

[TankAss95]

These two things seem strange to me. You say Science fails when questions of origins are introduced and from what I understand the people who believe in God explain it by saying it can't be understood. Don't see how that explains anything.

But that was not really my point. Before everything there was nothing. Absolutely nothing. No scientific things and no god. Just nothing. Nothing can explain what the hell happened then. Some people say God created something out of nothing. But how can God create something out of nothing if there is nothing, not even God. Same thing with the Big Bang. How can there be a huge explosion if there is nothing that can cause an explosion. It's just impossible to understand.

I disagree that there was nothing before everything. Nothing in a material sense, but there was something.

It's all about looking at the possibilities and thinking about it yourself. It's really mind boggling how there is ultimately something instead of nothing.

 

[Sam48]

Same thing with the Big Bang. How can there be a huge explosion if there is nothing that can cause an explosion. It's just impossible to understand.

Here's the problem all humans face. We can't comprehend what nothing really is. The least we can think of is a blank white plain, but that still is something. We also cannot comprehend something coming from nothing. It doesn't mean it isn't possible, it just means we don't understand it. The reason we think like this is due to the fact that everything we know of has a beginning and an end. Everything we know that has a beginning and an end is also material in some way, shape, or form. Therefore, if it exists, we automatically assume it came from pre-existing materials, and that it will eventually cease to exist.

It would be interesting to see what would happen to a child who was raised by guardians who taught him/her that everything comes from nothing, and that everything will always be. Maybe to them, the beginning of the universe's existence would make perfect sense, but would they have issues comprehending the idea that everything around them did not in fact come from nothing, and why death exists?

 

[Grand Prix]

You're a living organism that came about because of adaptations that make you enjoy life and think that everything has a purpose, a cause and a effect. (Simply because, if you didn't enjoy life, eating, and reproducing, you'd probably be less likely to produce offspring)


That is why the universe not having an origin doesn't make sense at first. We're living things that didn't know any differently previous to sentient thought... If we're born from our parents, then everything must have an origin, right?


Ever notice how we tend to give reasons and origins to everything, including inanimate objects, or abstract concepts? For example, we're always searching for an understanding of how the universe came to be, but do we really need that information? Our inquisitive nature says we do, but is this not just a really mindless response, brought about by an apparent need to know, which has helped our ancestral species in the past?


Point being, perhaps life itself is just a mindless pursuit as well. A depressing thought, perhaps, but maybe it'll shed light on why it seems like we have to fill gaps in our knowledge constantly, whether that be through science or religion.