Creation vs. Evolution

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There are differences between how creature are developed and how man build things. In order to understand you need to look at it on a cellular level.
I'm well aware of that, and that's exactly the issue the entire concept of ID and Creationism fails to overcome.



When I built my building I first laid the foundation then the floor. After I build the walls and put on a roof I start wiring it up. These wires are not connect to the power. No engineer would ever connect the power to the box before wiring the house/building. But this is exactly what happens in the embryo. The nerves are very active in development giving off impulses even while the nerve is not fully developed.

This is where Dawkins is misleading as the giraffe is not build first then the nerves add later like an engineer would with wires. I can build a building without adding power but the same is not true with living creatures.
I'm not aware that Dawkin's claims at any point that giraffe's are built first and then have nerves added later! That would appear to be a statement that you have just quite inaccurately attributed to him. He does state that its a design no engineer would come up with, but you've made quite a leap to get to nerves being added later. You may also want to check on the meaning of the word analogy, as he's not asking you to take it literal.


We have moved both the router and my son Xbox 360 since I first lay down the cable . Instead of removing the cable and rerouting it on the opposite side of the room I had enough cable just to go around the wall. So the cable no longer takes the most direct route. This is be the same as nerves grow with the limbs
That's not the same as how nerves grow at all, and you do realise that the analogy you have just used (adapt/mutate the existing) is closer to evolution than ID or creation. If the Giraffe was created or designed, then why would the designer/creator need to adapt, they would have done what was needed in the first place.


Thanks, but as I suspected its a generic defect and not evidence of nerves re-routing. They didn't start out on one hemisphere and move to the other.



I got extra long cable just in case we later decided to move stuff around (my wife is famous for) so I fail to see how flexibility is a "bad design".
Creationists and ID supporters don't believe that the design needs future flexability, it was designed as it is right the first time, as such your analogy doesn't stand.
 
Creationists and ID supporters don't believe that the design needs future flexability, it was designed as it is right the first time, as such your analogy doesn't stand.
The first I heard of that. http://biota-curve.blogspot.com/2013/03/fish-plasticity.html



I'm not aware that Dawkin's claims at any point that giraffe's are built first and then have nerves added later!
That's how an engineer would do it. Now power lines do make u-turns and don't always take the most direct route like it is on my road ( it was short a dead end dirt road). That's because my road and power-lines were added in much later..... it's something called growth.


P.S What God would or wouldn't do/allow is one of the oldest argument ever written found in the book of Job.
 
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Do you even understand what he's talking about? Sounds like you would need to be fairly qualified to say whether or not his arguments are valid.

All you've really done there is give us a link to some random article about an animal that may not have evolved due to natural selection and we have no way of telling if it's valid or trustworthy. I could probably find lots more animals that evolved due to natural selection so I don't get your point.

That's how an engineer would do it. Now power lines do make u-turns and don't always take the most direct route like it is on my road ( it was short a dead end dirt road). That's because my road and power-lines were added in much later..... it's something called growth.

P.S What God would or wouldn't do/allow is one of the oldest argument ever written found in the book of Job.

You have still failed to provide any evidence for how the nerve growing the way it does provides any benefit, probably because you don't have any, and you're just randomly throwing out the argument that it helps embryo development.
 
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The question whether they did is moot.

They evolved. The mistake of the author is positing that the scientific side merely attributes blindness as a survival trait due to the energy efficiency of not developing eyes.

It's the other way around, completely. Blindness is simply not a non-survival trait in cave fish, thus blindness can be passed on successfully from generation to generation without causing the subspecies to die out.

And the idea that surviving fish only carry on the fittest genes is laughable and demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of sexual reproduction.

A lot of undesirable traits get carried on but are not expressed, either due to spot mutations that deactivate them (lactose intolerance being one of the most famous) or simply because most of the population expresses a superior dominant trait.

Species are not monolithic. There are outliers either way, expressing traits that are either superior or inferior. During times of stress, then the population shifts one way or the other... or most of the population dies out for some totally unrelated reason, leaving a small breeding population in which different traits can then be spread and expressed.

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And cave fish are a very specifc, very small population. Mutations can get passed around pretty easily. Mutations like blindness.

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The argument fails mostly because it assumes that evolution has a purpose. It doesn't. It doesn't pick the fittest, the prettiest or the best designed. It doesn't do anything. It simply describes the fact that the survivors who reproduce pass on whatever traits are in their genome, whether those traits are expressed or not.
 
The argument fails mostly because it assumes that evolution has a purpose. It doesn't. It doesn't pick the fittest, the prettiest or the best designed. It doesn't do anything. It simply describes the fact that the survivors who reproduce pass on whatever traits are in their genome, whether those traits are expressed or not.

That's a better point that I overlooked 👍
 
The simplest way to look at evolution is just as a common sense result. The organisms more likely to survive are going to survive and they are going to pass on their genes, which are not unchangeable. How can evolution not happen?
 
Do you even understand what he's talking about? Sounds like you would need to be fairly qualified to say whether or not his arguments are valid.

All you've really done there is give us a link to some random article about an animal that may not have evolved due to natural selection and we have no way of telling if it's valid or trustworthy. I could probably find lots more animals that evolved due to natural selection so I don't get your point.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10395212/modern_synthesis_of_neo_darwinism_is_false_denis_nobel/


You have still failed to provide any evidence for how the nerve growing the way it does provides any benefit, probably because you don't have any, and you're just randomly throwing out the argument that it helps embryo development.
I thought it was common knowledge nerves has a big role in embryo development.

The simplest way to look at evolution is just as a common sense result. The organisms more likely to survive are going to survive and they are going to pass on their genes, which are not unchangeable. How can evolution not happen?
Note that no one questions common descent or changes. Now universal common descent is questionable as well as if life is "purposely" driven or just a pile of accidents.
 

Seems like a more credible link 👍 Still have no idea what he's saying though :lol: Is he implying evolution is wrong, natural selection is wrong, or just some aspect of either of them isn't quite right? Because it's no secret that there are debates within evolution, like there are in lots of theories, but that doesn't mean the entire theory is wrong.

I thought it was common knowledge nerves has a big role in embryo development.

Well it shouldn't be too hard to show me studies proving this then, I personally have never heard that.
 
Note that no one questions common descent or changes. Now universal common descent is questionable as well as if life is "purposely" driven or just a pile of accidents.

What's questionable about universal common descent?

Assuming that one ancestral species can only produce one descendant species ignores the fact that they have been proven within recent historical times to speciate from each other. The assumption also requires us to pretend that geographical isolation and catastrophes that deplete populations or separate populations don't exist. Such as with cave fish.

If you accept one kind of descent or species-specific genomic changes, you have to accept them all. You can't draw an imaginary, arbitrary line in the sand between the two.
 
The first I heard of that.
Creationists have made it quite clear for a rather long time that they consider life to have been created and remained static (like gives rise to like) and given that ID is a pseudo-science that tries to explain creationism in scientific terms
it also shares the same outlook. Now splinter groups of ID followers (mainly old-earthers) have accepted limited areas of evolution and attempted (and failed) to explain it within the terms of ID.


And other that being an excellent example of quote mining and total and utter misrepresentation's of evolution, with once again nonsense claims that evolution has a purpose (you do know that no matter how many times you say that it still not going to be true nor a claim that the Theory of Evolution makes), I'm not exactly sure why you posted this?


That's how an engineer would do it. Now power lines do make u-turns and don't always take the most direct route like it is on my road ( it was short a dead end dirt road). That's because my road and power-lines were added in much later..... it's something called growth.
I see the concept of an analogy is still escaping you.


P.S What God would or wouldn't do/allow is one of the oldest argument ever written found in the book of Job.
Amazing then how many theists claim to know exactly what he does, says and means in rather specific terms (that however is a subject for another thread).



Its fairly easy to see that you have picked up on that link due mainly to its rather (OK actually very) misleading strap-line (that is not from its original author or his paper - which uses the word false only once and never in that context). The piece written by Prof. Nobel is a counterpoint to Dawkin's 'The Selfish Gene' and argues that random mutation and environmentally influenced mutations both play a part. What it certainly doesn't do is alter the base theory of evolution in any way at all, despite the nonsense contained in the comments section with your link.

Simply because open and honest discussion based upon evidence is almost unheard of in theology don't mean that's the case in scientific circles, as such theists attempting to use open debate as a stick with which to dismiss evolution is utter ridiculous.
 
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Seems like a more credible link 👍 Still have no idea what he's saying though :lol: Is he implying evolution is wrong, natural selection is wrong, or just some aspect of either of them isn't quite right? Because it's no secret that there are debates within evolution, like there are in lots of theories, but that doesn't mean the entire theory is wrong.
It simply is what they thought was surely true a few years ago with new evidence is no longer true and what they thought wasn't true now is shown to be true after all. Evidence still has to be interpreted by one's view point. Sometimes the evidence you thought pointed clearly in one direction then with new information can point totally in the opposite direction. Thus even science requires faith. (I know atheist hate that word).

As some has pointed out right now there isn't really a "theory of evolution" as we learn the cell is much more complex than we even thought a few decades ago.

Well it shouldn't be too hard to show me studies proving this then, I personally have never heard that.
I happen to realize today the Wendy's I go to often is powered just like the RLN. Instead of receiving power from the pole right beside of it the power line cross the intersection goes about 300 feet away from the intersection then crosses the road again then the line goes underground to Wendy's. I don't know why the power company did it that way but I'm sure they had their reasons.

As far as nerves playing a big role in embryo development I read that from a book many years ago. IF I remember where I've read (if I still have it) that I will pass it on.

Creationists have made it quite clear for a rather long time that they consider life to have been created and remained static (like gives rise to like) and given that ID is a pseudo-science that tries to explain creationism in scientific terms
it also shares the same outlook. Now splinter groups of ID followers (mainly old-earthers) have accepted limited areas of evolution and attempted (and failed) to explain it within the terms of ID.
I'm sure you misunderstood what they meant. Stasis is not the same as plasticity.
 
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I happen to realize today the Wendy's I go to often is powered just like the RLN. Instead of receiving power from the pole right beside of it the power line cross the intersection goes about 300 feet away from the intersection then crosses the road again then the line goes underground to Wendy's. I don't know why the power company did it that way but I'm sure they had their reasons.
Analogy - its a word the meaning of which clearly escapes you doesn't it.


I'm sure you misunderstood what they meant. Stasis is not the same as plasticity.
Of that I am well aware, but all that leads to is the ID nonsense of macro vs micro evolution (and like it or not you don't get to pick one and dismiss the other), nor does it change the number of Creationist and ID advocates who remain with the view that life is fixed (however large the body of evidence against that is - evidence that doesn't require 'faith').

Oh and please don't double post, use the mutli-quote and/or edit tools.
 
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It simply is what they thought was surely true a few years ago with new evidence is no longer true and what they thought wasn't true now is shown to be true after all. Evidence still has to be interpreted by one's view point. Sometimes the evidence you thought pointed clearly in one direction then with new information can point totally in the opposite direction. Thus even science requires faith. (I know atheist hate that word).

You missed my point completely, or more likely you knew the answer didn't support your argument so you gave me a vague answer.

You're right, sometimes you can draw wrong conclusions from evidence. But I get the feeling the guy in the link you gave me was just discussing technicalities of evolution that have been discovered to be wrong, especially as you failed to address my question to whether or not that was what he meant. That doesn't mean evolution is wrong, in fact there are lots of theories that still have debates over technicalities, atomic theory, gravity, quantum theory, etc. But no one says these are wrong because they don't directly contradict the bible, or other religious beliefs.

Also, science can't have anything to do with faith by definition. Science requires evidence, faith requires a complete lack of evidence.
As some has pointed out right now there isn't really a "theory of evolution" as we learn the cell is much more complex than we even thought a few decades ago.

Well that's just wrong, how much more of a theory could you want? It's supported by genetics and fossil records, we know that very slight mutations can occur, we know that the mutations that are passed on are usually beneficial to the animals in the environment they were living in. We can even observe evolution happening today in bacteria when they become resilient to antibiotics. Saying none of that counts because we know more about the cell is just like saying atomic theory isn't a theory because we know more about what atoms are made of than when the theory was made.
I happen to realize today the Wendy's I go to often is powered just like the RLN. Instead of receiving power from the pole right beside of it the power line cross the intersection goes about 300 feet away from the intersection then crosses the road again then the line goes underground to Wendy's. ( I don't know why the power company did it that way but I'm sure they had their reasons.

Again your analogy is completely invalid. Your argument is basically, oh I'm sure god had his reasons we just don't know what it is yet. Do you even understand how science works? Not by making assumptions and then finding things that fit our assumptions, and things that don't fit them we will ignore because we might find something later that makes those things fit our assumption.

The difference between this and your analogy, is in your analogy we know that the wires were designed, so it's safe to assume that there is a reason for them being designed like they are. You can't assume that there is a reason for the nerve being designed like it is, because we don't know the nerve is designed.
As far as nerves playing a big role in embryo development I read that from a book many years ago. IF I remember where I've read (if I still have it) that I will pass it on.

Well you can't use it as an argument until you find some scientific evidence of how that exact nerve growing in the way it does helps embryo development. And I don't think you will ever find that evidence because I'm sure Dawkins or the biologist he was talking to would know about it if it existed.
 
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Next time someone asks you for proof...
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Evolution does not make any sense, even scientists are not convinced.

Oh dear, let me correct that quickly; Evolution doesn't make any sense to YOU, and some scientists aren't convinced because they have nothing to do with the field of evolution or they are too wrapped up in their own religious beliefs for them to have a valid opinion. Or scientists aren't convinced on some of the details of evolution but they agree that the general idea is a fact.

I mean even if what you said wasn't complete rubbish, creationism makes even less sense, and even less scientists are convinced by it.
 
Evolution does not make any sense, even scientists are not convinced.
Evolution is a process that every scientist knows occurs, because we can make it happen.

Evolutionary theory, on the other hand, is an explanation for all known facts, observations and processes regarding the evolution of all planetary life today*. It is the only theorem that does this - others exist that ignore known facts, observations and processes and are thus not theories - and every scientist is assured of its current validity.

It's not complete, however. We know that there are facts, observations and processes regarding the evolution of all planetary life today that we have not yet uncovered and evolutionary theory will have to change to accommodate them alongside all the presently known ones - however it may not have to change all that much because, like all good theories, it predicts several of them. No change in evolutionary theory will backtrack on current known data though - merely refine what we have at present.


*That's the job of a theorem. It is above fact and law because it provides a framework for them to exist. It explains the facts and laws.

In fact, your post was a theorem. It explains all the facts, observations and processes that you know: "Evolution does not make any sense, even scientists are not convinced."; However it doesn't explain all the known data and, when made aware of it, your theorem can be modified by removing just four words: "Evolution does make sense, scientists are convinced."
 
Evolution is a process that every scientist knows occurs, because we can make it happen.

Evolutionary theory, on the other hand, is an explanation for all known facts, observations and processes regarding the evolution of all planetary life today*. It is the only theorem that does this - others exist that ignore known facts, observations and processes and are thus not theories - and every scientist is assured of its current validity.

It's not complete, however. We know that there are facts, observations and processes regarding the evolution of all planetary life today that we have not yet uncovered and evolutionary theory will have to change to accommodate them alongside all the presently known ones - however it may not have to change all that much because, like all good theories, it predicts several of them. No change in evolutionary theory will backtrack on current known data though - merely refine what we have at present.


*That's the job of a theorem. It is above fact and law because it provides a framework for them to exist. It explains the facts and laws.

In fact, your post was a theorem. It explains all the facts, observations and processes that you know: "Evolution does not make any sense, even scientists are not convinced."; However it doesn't explain all the known data and, when made aware of it, your theorem can be modified by removing just four words: "Evolution does make sense, scientists are convinced."

Okay if evolution is legit can you please explain it to me providing concrete proof?
 
Okay if evolution is legit can you please explain it to me providing concrete proof?
Your question doesn't make any sense.

Evolution is simply the change of something from one form to another. You can observe it in myriad forms every day - this post evolved, weather patterns evolve, Gran Turismo evolved.

Evolutionary theory is an explanation for all known facts, laws, data, observations and processes regarding biological evolution. It's marginally higher in the food chain than "concrete proof" - it's what explains the proof. Theory comes after and above proof.


I suspect you're wanting me to explain the latter, in which case I'd advise you to pick up a book (or read through this thread, then pick up a book).
 
Your question doesn't make any sense.

Evolution is simply the change of something from one form to another. You can observe it in myriad forms every day - this post evolved, weather patterns evolve, Gran Turismo evolved.

Evolutionary theory is an explanation for all known facts, laws, data, observations and processes regarding biological evolution. It's marginally higher in the food chain than "concrete proof" - it's what explains the proof. Theory comes after and above proof.


I suspect you're wanting me to explain the latter, in which case I'd advise you to pick up a book (or read through this thread, then pick up a book).

Oops, I realized this thread is about evolution in general, I thought it was mainly about how humans evolved from apes, which is ridiculous.
 
Yes it is ridiculous.

Humans and apes both evolved from a common human-ape ancestor. It's one of the many pieces of data, facts, observations and processes that evolutionary theory both explains and predicts.
 
Yes it is ridiculous.

Humans and apes both evolved from a common human-ape ancestor. It's one of the many pieces of data, facts, observations and processes that evolutionary theory both explains and predicts.

Sorry, I do not understand. Are you saying we evolved from apes?
 
Think of it this way: you share a common ancestor with your siblings (your parents). Go back a generation, and you share a common ancestor with your cousins. Go back far enough, and you might have a 15th cousin in the present Czech Republic or Belgium. You could have a 20th cousin in an ex-Soviet Republic, and a 30th cousin in Yemen!
 
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