Creation vs. Evolution

[Swift]

Research? And you call your claim credible? Some he-said-she-said account of what happened? Puh-leez.

Uh, he said it was his friend. I've told you that my girlfriend was healed of an ovarian cyst, you didn't believe that either.

For all the stuff that you guys don't believe, what is the proof for the things you do? and don't say scientific papers that you literally can't read(except Famine )

 

[PS]

Uh, he said it was his friend. I've told you that my girlfriend was healed of an ovarian cyst, you didn't believe that either.

For all the stuff that you guys don't believe, what is the proof for the things you do? and don't say scientific papers that you literally can't read(except Famine )

That IS a he-said-she-said account. A doctor told someone something who told someone something who told me something. It could have changed a hundred times between what the doctor said and what I heard.

 

[Swift]

That IS a he-said-she-said account. A doctor told someone something who told someone something who told me something. It could have changed a hundred times between what the doctor said and what I heard.

You still didn't answer my question.

 

[PS]

You still didn't answer my question.

This one?

For all the stuff that you guys don't believe, what is the proof for the things you do?

Well, uh, give me an example and I'll tell you why I do or don't believe in it.

 

[Swift]

This one?



Well, uh, give me an example and I'll tell you why I do or don't believe in it.

Wow, you have multiple reasons for what you believe. amazing. So, does it change by what's popular or what the newest "find" is? I'm just wondering.

 

[PS]

Wow, you have multiple reasons for what you believe. amazing. So, does it change by what's popular or what the newest "find" is? I'm just wondering.

I believe in whatever has the most accurate, credible sources. To me, religion is not credible. Much of it is pseudo-science when they try to explain something, and very little of it can be accurately verified. However, many paranormal instances can be accurately explained and have scientific research and data to back it up. Like ghosts. Temperature drop, electronic feilds appearing/dissapearing, orbs of light/energy floating around (caught on camera, and video as well), videos of apparitions, photos, many things. But aliens? I believe aliens exist.

Do I believe 500 people are abucted by them a year? No way. Big foot? Hmm....maybe. Still skeptical on that one. Nessy? Same thing. Ogopogo? Same thing. Cappy? Same thing. Just not enouogh evidence of their existence. I'm sick of hearing witness acounts from 90 year old ladies that saw something moving in the water 100 feet out.

[edit]

Yes, I have multiple reasons for believing something. What kind of skeptic would I be if I didn't? If my one sole reason for believing something was seeing it with my own eyes, I'd believe everything I saw in the movies, and would thus be pretty naive.

 

[code_kev]

This kid on my church's prayer chain had a broken hip and it healed 5 weeks quicker than any other patient that docter had ever heard of. Code_Kev before you start bashing peoples beliefs you better do some research

Hahaha brilliant, o wise one, verse me in the ways of pseudo science and make believe!

"This one time, this person like went to church, and he healed like a day sooner then normal!!!!1!"

You do know that sometimes people heal quicker WITHOUT the aid of religion right? You guys only seem to notice when people who pray heal quicker, what about all the ones who prayed and still died/ took ages to heal? What about all the children with aids who pray every night, yet are never saved? Odd how God helps some kid with a slight problem, yet screws over those who really suffers. You sir, are talking crap.

 

[PS]

Or screws over the ones that don't have the $100,000 to fork over for medical treatment.

[edit]

And you know, if you have a high-calcium and high-Vitamin C diet, your bones practically heal in no-time.

 

[code_kev]

Lets knock down the churches and turn them in to prayer halls. When some one comes in sick, we can all gather round and pray. Who needs real medicine! Prayer chains are where it's at, hell the proof is right here! This guy with no real clue of the human anatomy or biology says it's true, it must be! Damn good thing I did my research this time! I can see it now...

"Lets all gather round david, for david is suffering from a gunshot wound and internal bleeding, let us pray"

"ARGG ARRGGG PLEASE STOP IITTTT"

"David, you are in the medical facility of the Lord, pray with us and your wounds will heal, here join hands with us, we shall excorsise those evil demon bullets from you".

I guess what I've just said is quite offensive. Oh well.

 

[a6m5]

Wasn't there some study that showed prayer can help medical patients? I think it was concluded that by praying, it actually helped with the spirits of the patients. No, I'm not claiming God heals you when you pray. Wasn't Jesus the last person to perform miracles according to the Bible? I might be wrong on this though...

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Wasn't there some study that showed prayer can help medical patients? I think it was concluded that by praying, it actually helped with the spirits of the patients. No, I'm not claiming God heals you when you pray. Wasn't Jesus the last person to perform miracles according to the Bible? I might be wrong on this though...

And there was something with chemicals that are being released while praying or something. But indeed, there was no prove of God having anything to do with it. But hey, there also was a study that concluded that laughing speeds up the healing proces.

I myself am an atheïst, so I don't believe in God having anything to do with anything. But I also have learned to take studies that come in the news with a big grain of salt. I consider myself as a skeptic. Also when it comes to science. It keeps me open minded.

 

[Takumi Fujiwara]

Wasn't there some study that showed prayer can help medical patients? I think it was concluded that by praying, it actually helped with the spirits of the patients. No, I'm not claiming God heals you when you pray. Wasn't Jesus the last person to perform miracles according to the Bible? I might be wrong on this though...

I thought it was asserted that some of the post-Jesus saints performed miracles?

 

[Swift]

I thought it was asserted that some of the post-Jesus saints performed miracles?

Many of the disciples did perform miracles after Jesus assended into heaven. So yes, you're quite right.

 

[Touring Mars]

Wasn't there some study that showed prayer can help medical patients? I think it was concluded that by praying, it actually helped with the spirits of the patients. No, I'm not claiming God heals you when you pray. Wasn't Jesus the last person to perform miracles according to the Bible? I might be wrong on this though...

This recent article on the BBC news website points to a recent study that claims that prayer doesn't actually help (heart patients in this instance)... but it doesn't do any harm I suppose (unless you depend on prayer rather than see a doctor)..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4681771.stm

On another point, I just found this article in Nature... evidence of 'reinforcement', which so far has been pretty scarce...

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7049/abs/nature03704.html

(or in English...)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4708459.stm

Not being a geneticist or an evolutionary biologist, I can't claim to fully understand it, but the basic concept seems to be that they have been able to show how speciation can occur from within a single species... although the theory has long been mooted, this seems to be the first time it has been shown to work 'infront of our eyes'...

P.S. If anyone would like the full text .pdf, I can PM it... 👍

Interesting stuff...

 

[Pako]

This recent article on the BBC news website points to a recent study that claims that prayer doesn't actually help (heart patients in this instance)... but it doesn't do any harm I suppose (unless you depend on prayer rather than see a doctor)..

Too many variables (if you consider different gods to pray to a variable, which I do). What were the results of the individual prayer groups? And as Tacet_Blue might say, "Where can you find this experiment in a scientific journal? 700 patients are clearly not enough of a test group to accurately arrive at a conclusion." Or something to that effect.

 

[Famine]

700's enough. 200 is enough for validity.

 

[Pako]

700's enough. 200 is enough for validity.

Did I say "Famine"? I apologize, I meant to say "Tacet_Blue".

 

[Duke]

Too many variables (if you consider different gods to pray to a variable, which I do). What were the results of the individual prayer groups?

One assumes that the people and families prayed to which particular God they believed in...

 

[Pako]

One assumes that the people and families prayed to which particular God they believed in...

Not sure what you mean by that.

Christian, Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist prayer groups were assigned to pray for 371 of the patients. The rest had no prayer group.

Either way, I think I misunderstood what they were saying. Reading over it again, it appears that all four religious groups were praying for the same people so that the most popular belief systems would be covered.

For some reason I was under the impression that each group was assigned to a portion of the 371.

 

[a6m5]

And there was something with chemicals that are being released while praying or something. But indeed, there was no prove of God having anything to do with it. But hey, there also was a study that concluded that laughing speeds up the healing proces.

I heard about the laughing one before too. It make sense to me. I think it's entirely possible that when you "pray" or "laugh", your postive mood or attitude helps your body go through the healing process better. However, I am in no way suggesting these are cure for anything..... maybe except depression.

 

[Duke]

Not sure what you mean by that.

Either way, I think I misunderstood what they were saying. Reading over it again, it appears that all four religious groups were praying for the same people so that the most popular belief systems would be covered.

For some reason I was under the impression that each group was assigned to a portion of the 371.

What I was saying was that I assumed Christians prayed for Christians, Jews for Jews, Muslims for Muslims, etc. In other words each type of patient was prayed for, to the god of his choice. However, it seems that indeed all patients were prayed for to all gods, making that point moot.

 

[Pako]

What I was saying was that I assumed Christians prayed for Christians, Jews for Jews, Muslims for Muslims, etc. In other words each type of patient was prayed for, to the god of his choice. However, it seems that indeed all patients were prayed for to all gods, making that point moot.

Not arguing with you. We were both mistaken but ended up with the same conclusion. So we can both read but our comprehension skills are less than 100%.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

And as Tacet_Blue might say, "Where can you find this experiment in a scientific journal? 700 patients are clearly not enough of a test group to accurately arrive at a conclusion." Or something to that effect.

It's a fair question to ask
Personally I only like to consider double blind studies that have a large sample and the results corroborated by having the experiment independently repeated.

You can go with the "I know this guy and he said his mate was turned into a newt and back again by this witch." I'm a little more choosy

A sample of 700 gives a margin of error of 3.78% which is perfectly acceptable. 1/root sample.

As for the story about the guy breaking his hip (does he mean pelvis, as the hip is a ball socket joint, but that's beside the point) I'd find it more believable that his rapid recovery was due to the lucky socks he was wearing

The act of prayer could help healing, but I'd have to put it down to the calming influence it has and the relaxation it offers. Reduction of anxiety and stress has certainly been proved to increase chances of recovery. A positive state of mind is helpful too, but these things have nothing to do with Gods

 

[Swift]

A positive state of mind is helpful too, but these things have nothing to do with Gods

Or everything depending on your mindset.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Or everything depending on your mindset.

Yes, if you can't manage it by yourself, then you might need a God to help you

Here's an nice example of the old Evo in action Swift, the legless lizard, looks just like a snake, but still has vestigial limbs under the skin.
Is it so hard to see that it is possible for a four legged animal to become a snake

 

[Swift]

Yes, if you can't manage it by yourself, then you might need a God to help you

Here's an nice example of the old Evo in action Swift, the legless lizard, looks just like a snake, but still has vestigial limbs under the skin.
Is it so hard to see that it is possible for a four legged animal to become a snake

And Apes look a lot like humans, but they have 4 hands and we have two hands and two feet. Still doesn't PROVE evolution as the origin of species. It just shows common traits.

 

[Touring Mars]

What about the Butterfly article...? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4708459.stm

It's pretty convincing, esp. if you read the full Nature paper that it refers to, even if you're not a geneticist...

 

[Tacet_Blue]

And Apes look a lot like humans, but they have 4 hands and we have two hands and two feet. Still doesn't PROVE evolution as the origin of species. It just shows common traits.

You can't even see thhat one..wow

That is a lizard that has had its legs evolve away, how would you explain it?

Apes do have feet They may be more versatile than ours, but they are still composed of metatarsals.
There are people that can paint with their feet, but they are still called feet, not hands

What's with these common traits...2 lungs, 1 heart, 2 kidneys, all the joints the same construction, the spine having the same number of vertebrae? Did God only have a limited amount of components, or does he/she lack imagination.

Oh and Famine can give you a more accurate figure, but the human foetus is identical to a pigs up until 9 weeks (maybe longer...Famine!). That is because all mammals came from the same root.
There is a name for the process where the developing embryo goes through its evolutionary history as it develops...but I'm tired and can't remember. One animal develops a tail and then loses it before birth. Where's a biologist when you need one

Don't you think it odd how a tadpole changes to a frog, or a caterpillar to a butterfly. These are massive changes in physiology, but it happens...all the time

Have a good night anyway, I'm done preaching

 

[Pako]

Anthropomorphisation anyone? (Thanks Famine for the big word.)

 

[Swift]

Have a good night anyway, I'm done preaching

Thanks...

Anyway, so, because there are similarities in animals as they are developing that we all came from that?

I'm not going to say that evolution as a whole hasn't or doesn't happen. Because I believe that it does. However, I do not subscribe to evolution being the origin of species.

BTW, why would a lizard be better off without legs?