"Daily" Race Discussion [Archive]

[Groundfish]

So please stop justifying cheating by saying ooh look at the track limits. It's a false equivalence.

It’s cheating in your mind, but not by the rules. That’s the point.
The fact you consider cutting the track to be fine but touching a wall is cheating is your opinion.

 

[hardvibes]

Fact #1 It is cheating.

Fact #2 It is Polyphony Digital's fault because they allow it.

 

[mohitraina91]

It’s cheating in your mind, but not by the rules. That’s the point.
The fact you consider cutting the track to be fine but touching a wall is cheating is your opinion.

Lol it's cheating by the rules, not in my mind.

Regarding track limits, again I literally gave a relevant, real world, very recent example of it. This happens a lot IRL.

Like I said do what you want, just don't justify it as being in the right.

 

[Pigems]

It’s cheating in your mind, but not by the rules. That’s the point.
The fact you consider cutting the track to be fine but touching a wall is cheating is your opinion.

You’re in full control of your car when cutting a corner, at all times, you’re not using anything that’s not your car to make the corner. Both are cheating, but one is much much worse than the other.

In the BMB infield race a couple weeks ago, you could bounce off the wall in the Merc and get away with it, any other car trying it got a pen. Is that still within the game then? Is it cheating for all other non Mercedes cars?

 

[Groundfish]

Isn’t it obvious why there needs to be rules in order to have a game?



The only thing deciding what’s cheating is rules.
It’s not the contradictory position that is held by some that cutting the tracks ok but using a wall isn’t.
The rules are set in racing and enforced by stewards.
In GTS you are either penalized or not. There’s no “but Kaz he bounced off a wall, and for some reason I believe that’s like murder”
It’s a bizarre contradictory stance to take imo.
I won’t wall ram but logic and rules are logic and rules after all. That doesn’t change because I don’t like wall riding.

 

[Pigems]

Agreed, there should be a very clear list of rules in the videos we have to watch in order to join sport mode. PD won’t do ANYTHING that will cause less players though, they never have, and probably never will. They will allow the dirty drivers to drive away the clean ones before they ever try to “enforce” any kind of rules that may turn people away.

 

[NekoPufferPPP]

The one person who hasn't broken the law, is breaking the law, by not breaking the law. Interesting. So the professional athlete who doesn't use performance enhancing drugs, is actually the one at fault, for not working the system?

That's the problem, sticking to a hard-written law when nobody else is following it. The ones who follow the rule, but insist on bunching up with the people who don't, are the odd ones in the group, their inclusion causes disbalance in the system, and it all falls apart, where one side insists on "cheating" and the other doesn't. So the solution is to enforce a rule (in this case a wall-hit penalty) to prevent the cheat altogether, or separate the two parties, because they don't and won't mix.

Personally I think that goes against racing and what racing is (even if it is a game). And as such, in my opinion, it is cheating and shouldn't be done.

And I completely agree. It's bad. It shouldn't be done. But it's the only competitive option in that race, and sadly, nothing's stopping people from abusing it.

Fact #1 It is cheating.

Fact #2 It is Polyphony Digital's fault because they allow it.

Exactly what I've been saying this whole time.

 

[Little_Guppy]

If there's a way, people will find it...and if you want to stay competitive, you'll do it too. I want to stay competitive. I'm not gonna intentionally put myself at a disadvantage just to please my inner simracer. It's just a game in the end...if there was damage, nobody would even think of doing this. It sucks but I'll deal with it. Apart from T1, I did the rest of the lap only 0.2s slower than the top time, so I'd be high above many others anyway, but not if I made a clean lap.

Hi @NekoPufferPPP ,

It is always good to hear from you and I can tell you are well respected by the board.

There is a funny thing about right and wrong... it is sometimes so hard to tell the difference.

Two examples, both related to GTS or motor sport.

In formula 1 this case:

• A team put sensors in their cars to detect the track magnetic false start sensor thereby allows the car onboard computers to launch the cars independent of the drivers. I cannot find a reference for this one but I thought it was Renault in 2001.
• Honda put a gas tank inside a gas tank to allow them to run lighter than the regulations allow. (2005 San Marino, https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/may/06/formulaone.sport)

Honda were suspended for one or two races which is a very serious and damaging to the Honda brand. The sensor team received a "Well, boys will be boys...". Why was one wrong but not the other?

In GTS it is OK to have an Alt account in a different region. It is absolutely horrible to have an account in a different region for Nations cup. Judgement by this board no less. Why was one wrong but not the other (I know now but did not when I started GTS)?

For many the wallriding falls on the side of wrong. There is no personal judgment. It hard to tell.

 

[sturk0167]

I'm not defending wall-riders. I don't think people should do it.
When the top qualifiers are doing it, I won't even bother qualifying for that race.
Like Pigems said, PD has provided no actual written set of rules, so what should be allowed is personal opinion.
Many real life types of racing will give penalties for cutting corners, but I don't think any of them give penalties for crashing into a wall.
Again, I'm not into wall riding, but this is a game, so I'm fine with other people doing whatever they feel like doing.

 

[Groundfish]

Agreed, there should be a very clear list of rules in the videos we have to watch in order to join sport mode. PD won’t do ANYTHING that will cause less players though, they never have, and probably never will. They will allow the dirty drivers to drive away the clean ones before they ever try to “enforce” any kind of rules that may turn people away.

Amen brother amen!
Thinking back I still say the original as installed pen system was the best and most fair.
Problem was every you tuber under the sun complained now here we are. The desire of PD to want player numbers over quality has left us in this current train wreck.
All this game needs is a little focus in the right areas scoring wise rating wise.

 

[Pigems]

Amen brother amen!
Thinking back I still say the original as installed pen system was the best and most fair.
Problem was every you tuber under the sun complained now here we are. The desire of PD to want player numbers over quality has left us in this current train wreck.
All this game needs is a little focus in the right areas scoring wise rating wise.

I’d say them broadcasting the T16 races did it, it looks bad when the races they broadcast are full of people driving with pens. Especially when they aren’t given out fairly/properly. So now everyone has to suffer because PD won’t make themselves look bad on TV/YT with their terrible pen system, and they can’t fix it, or they would have already.

 

[NekoPufferPPP]

Hi @NekoPufferPPP ,

It is always good to hear from you and I can tell you are well respected by the board.

There is a funny thing about right and wrong... it is sometimes so hard to tell the difference.

Two examples, both related to GTS or motor sport.

In formula 1 this case:

• A team put sensors in their cars to detect the track magnetic false start sensor thereby allows the car onboard computers to launch the cars independent of the drivers. I cannot find a reference for this one but I thought it was Renault in 2001.
• Honda put a gas tank inside a gas tank to allow them to run lighter than the regulations allow. (2005 San Marino, https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/may/06/formulaone.sport)

Honda were suspended for one or two races which is a very serious and damaging to the Honda brand. The sensor team received a "Well, boys will be boys...". Why was one wrong but not the other?

In GTS it is OK to have an Alt account in a different region. It is absolutely horrible to have an account in a different region for Nations cup. Judgement by this board no less. Why was one wrong but not the other (I know now but did not when I started GTS)?

For many the wallriding falls on the side of wrong. There is no personal judgment. It hard to tell.

The way this wall cheat is different, is with when people apply it.

When qualifying for the fastest lap, anything goes. Everyone is able to do the same thing the #1 time did, if you choose not to, you're only putting yourself at a deliberate disadvantage, instead of adapting or dropping out of participation.

Anything the game allows will be abused, it is inevitable, it's how people are, and the game enables it...

However, in a race, if there's only one person not hitting the wall, then everyone else is the cheater. So like I said in one of my first posts on the subject, it's easier to agree to not use the wall in a race. Some good racing is to be had if everyone can agree on it and be sporting about it.

I met one racer, who also cheated the time, but raced fairly, within the real life rules. He complained about the wall cheat before the race, but carried on. As have many others. Those who use the wall in a race, get dealt with by other racers. If the game won't apply a penalty...the current (lack thereof of a) penalty system allows everyone to be a rule enforcer, to an extent... The old system was better, at least the dirty drivers were all racing other dirty drivers but now they're all up in the S-ranked lobbies and it's utter chaos.

Realistically, comparing this situation to real life is ridiculous. Of course you'd never do something like that unless you have a death wish, or (in case of corner cutting) are prepared to, worst case scenario, pay a massive fine and shame yourself and the nation...

 

[bone_tone]

@bone_tone good to see you out there. I haven't got the greatest race pace on Race C. Plus running from the back to learn the track. So my DR won't be where it is for much longer.

Good to see you too.

Had a shock when I entered the room, to find I was the only B DR in a room of As! Running the Jag, as usual, but got punted to last on lap 1 - made up a few places later on, and had a great last 3 laps swapping places with a Spaniard in an F1.

He just made it to the finish line in front of me, only for him to then get the 1 minute penalty for not running both tyres.....

 

[Pigems]

The way this wall cheat is different, is with when people apply it.

When qualifying for the fastest lap, anything goes. Everyone is able to do the same thing the #1 time did, if you choose not to, you're only putting yourself at a deliberate disadvantage, instead of adapting or dropping out of participation.

Anything the game allows will be abused, it is inevitable, it's how people are, and the game enables it...

However, in a race, if there's only one person not hitting the wall, then everyone else is the cheater. So like I said in one of my first posts on the subject, it's easier to agree to not use the wall in a race. Some good racing is to be had if everyone can agree on it and be sporting about it.

I met one racer, who also cheated the time, but raced fairly, within the real life rules. He complained about the wall cheat before the race, but carried on. As have many others. Those who use the wall in a race, get dealt with by other racers. If the game won't apply a penalty...the current (lack thereof of a) penalty system allows everyone to be a rule enforcer, to an extent... The old system was better, at least the dirty drivers were all racing other dirty drivers but now they're all up in the S-ranked lobbies and it's utter chaos.

Realistically, comparing this situation to real life is ridiculous. Of course you'd never do something like that unless you have a death wish, or (in case of corner cutting) are prepared to, worst case scenario, pay a massive fine and shame yourself and the nation...

You’re out qualifying yourself in race though, anyone behind you with a legit time is actually faster. So you starting ahead and not being able to keep up your Q pace is messing up other people’s races too, every time you enter. Why do people only ever think of themselves these days?

 

[Little_Guppy]

To be fair, this is usually what the final chicane looks like for the fastest Suzuka qualifiers.

Untitled

• sturk0167
• Apr 20, 2021

The game allows it, so people do it.
It's not really any different that using a wall as an advantage.
I don't care, either way, but selective condemnation isn't fair.

That corner cut feels OK as there is so much inconsistency for the track boundaries throughout the game. Part of the game requires us to exploit those.

Wallbanging, however, is usually penalized 1.5 seconds anywhere it provides an advantage and a lot of places it provides no advantage. PD has taken special measures to prevent the practice. They have some bugs.

With respect to the other track violations and the wallbanging it feels like an effect of a reverse circuit. In general, the primary circuit is normally good and the the reverse direction is always a bit odd and not fully debugged. Case-in-point, at Sardenga C II, the driving line in the reverse direction feels whack - I bet is is the same line as the obverse/normal direction.

 

[Winnie847]

Since several people have chosen to perform the mental gymnastics required to say the wall-riding is not "cheating" I'll go ahead and agree.

If you want to get technical about it....it's not cheating.

However, there is nothing wrong with telling it like it is and saying that the people who do that are lacking personal integrity and are showing poor character.

No technicalities to pigeonhole there.

 

[Paulo Ribeiro]

I did a clean overtake and what do I get? A 1 second penalty.

Right...

 

[O604]

Personally I don't care if others wall ride or cut corners.

If wearing dirty underpants on my head made me faster, I wouldn't do it. I'm just not that committed.

Long run it doesn't matter. Only if you view every race as a World Championship.

I can still learn something racing against corner cutting or wall riding. But I can't learn anything if other drivers are playing another game altogether.

 

[NekoPufferPPP]

You’re out qualifying yourself in race though, anyone behind you with a legit time is actually faster. So you starting ahead and not being able to keep up your Q pace is messing up other people’s races too, every time you enter. Why do people only ever think themselves these days?

Except I'm not slower... I easily kept up with the pack, and even kept a several-second lead in some races. My quali time's in the top 10...ignoring the wall thing, I'm as fast as the top times on the course including taking T1 cleanly, so it's all fine in my case.

I'm better on smaller tracks because there's less mistakes to be made per lap, and it's easier to get in tune with the track's rythm and be more consistent, something I'm still not so good at...

 

[Groundfish]

The old system was better, at least the dirty drivers were all racing other dirty drivers but now they're all up in the S-ranked lobbies and it's utter chaos

This. X2.
PDs inability to form any workable penalty system has resulted in chaos.
They can’t do it.
Here we are. Wall riders and punters in the top ranked lobbies.

 

[foolsgold74]

This really shows the limitations of a video game that to some extent markets itself as a simulation of motor racing.

Corner cutting and weird track limits is actually quite an accurate simulation of real life. We had it at Imola again this weekend, only 2 corners enforced and one was with the white line but the other was with the edge of the red line on the inside of the curb (about a metre inside the white line). I'd prefer consistency but when I know about weird track limits I use them just like any real life driver would.

But hitting a wall at full pelt to gain an advantage is pure video gaming (and not very good video gaming). I don't like it. Naturally if you can hammer into a wall with impunity IRL all racers would do it. But you can't. It really shouldn't be beyond the wit of PD to resolve this.

 

[NoStopN]

That's an odd take... If everyone's doing it, can you really still call it cheating?

The point of setting quali times is finding the fastest way to complete a lap...even without the wallriding, people still cut corners in ways no other game would accept as clean.

It's how it is...no need to bash on the people for the game's shortcomings, come on.

I had to look at my first comment for you to feel like I was bashing other people. Notice how I wasn't bashing their driving. I was bashing their morals at deciding that they are so egocentric that a top 10 time on a video game is going to be the big thing that they want notoriety for. I personally am not fast enough for a top 10 time even with the wallriding cheat. But, I want to improve my driving skill. Smashing into a wall takes no skill.

No need to get offended.

True. Nobody attacked him for the glitch, but he felt the need to defend it. I've qualified for race B at 0.56.6 & knowing I'm only 1.3 seconds behind a cheated time makes me feel even better.

So, the Gr.3 time attack a while back, the Blue Moon Bay T1 wallride...was it fixed?

The only time I've wallriden in the game was during a lobby race with friends & we did it for pure comedy. No DR/SR at risk, no world top 10 times to brag about, no penalties handed out. But, much laughter at the absurd fun that can be had if everyone wasn't trying to be serious. In daily races, most people want to drive like serious racers.

I don’t watch racing, it’s quite boring. But, if like you say, Prost closed the door, then there wasn’t a gap for Senna to “go for”. How could there be if the door was closed?

Judge for yourself:

Wall-riding would destroy your car if this were an actual simulation, while these corner cuts wouldn't. I guess that's the difference.

My mind tells me the same thing. If I crashed my car in reality, I would have to fix that damage (or my pit crew). Even if I crash in the game, I lose enough time to lose positions. Either way, most of us learn that hitting wall = bad. I've got my brain trained to keep 2 wheels on the asphalt or at least the curbs. So needless to say, I won't be putting all 4 tires on the green section at Suzuka, ever.

Moving on, I did score a win even with all of the wallriding, turn 1 punts, & totally mismatched track limit penalties.

 

[NekoPufferPPP]

Smashing into a wall takes no skill.

If it really doesn't, that means you should be able to do it perfectly on your first try...but you won't.

I understand the hate, it's completely expected, but saying it doesn't require any skill or technique is just, well...wrong.

As if taking a corner is any more difficult... Everything has a certain way for it to be done perfectly.

Nobody attacked him for the glitch, but he felt the need to defend it. I've qualified for race B at 0.56.6 & knowing I'm only 1.3 seconds behind a cheated time makes me feel even better.

Actually, the fastest I've done a lap during a race (i.e. without abusing the wall) was 56.2, and I've seen some do it in 56 flat so... .2 of a second still puts me in the same level, considering I'm also .2 of a second slower than the #1 quali time.

Also...you did attack everyone abusing the wall...rightfully so, but your wording was..."rough".

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Lambo OP

 

[NoStopN]

Actually, the fastest I've done a lap during a race (i.e. without abusing the wall) was 56.2, and I've seen some do it in 56 flat so... .2 of a second still puts me in the same level, considering I'm also .2 of a second slower than the #1 quali time.

Also...you did attack everyone abusing the wall...rightfully so, but your wording was..."rough".

Well, I feel even better knowing I'm in the same ballpark as others who don't use the wallriding "technique". Also, my wording for those who use it is strong. Sometimes the truth hurts. Many top 10 world qualifiers have substantially more time to spend on this game than others. If this is how they spend their time, all I can say is, "What a waste."

 

[Pigems]

Except I'm not slower... I easily kept up with the pack, and even kept a several-second lead in some races. My quali time's in the top 10...ignoring the wall thing, I'm as fast as the top times on the course including taking T1 cleanly, so it's all fine in my case.

I'm better on smaller tracks because there's less mistakes to be made per lap, and it's easier to get in tune with the track's rythm and be more consistent, something I'm still not so good at...

I call BS. How much faster is your cheater time vs your legit time? Cause that how much farther you “should” be starting down the grid every race.

Race laps have draft too, so they don’t count.

 

[OJBrit]

I’d say them broadcasting the T16 races did it, it looks bad when the races they broadcast are full of people driving with pens. Especially when they aren’t given out fairly/properly. So now everyone has to suffer because PD won’t make themselves look bad on TV/YT with their terrible pen system, and they can’t fix it, or they would have already.

It's different now in their broadcasts as they have control of penalties and look at things in real-time like an actual race does. Us plebs are left with the crumbs.

Lambo OP

I know it's reversed but the livery reminds me of the old Turtle van.

 

[Jwptexas]

I feel like there is unwritten rules in real racing kind of code of ethics.... that's definitely lacking in the community of Gran Turismo

 

[Groundfish]

I don’t think it’s lacking, it’s just that those who don’t abide by it are mixed with those that do.

All this reminds me of last time I overtook a top player at Interlagos. He was on Fanatec wheel judging by his 3 liveries I saw.
He bobbled and I got by no contact lap 1.
He stayed behind without touching 1 lap. Couldn’t get by clean. Next lap he starts with the mini shoves.
Couldn’t get by.
Next lap harder shoves in brake zones. My defense hardened .
Couldn’t get by.
Last lap full fledged full throttle hit, but I broke early so I’m still ahead.
Last lap he gets me last turn from .6 back full throttle at apex.
If you saw what I did to him 3 races later you’d think I’m the dirtiest player alive.
That’s racing. The thing is...

under the old system he’d never do it. With all the hits he’d be risking a severe sr drop to the point of almost reset.

Now, 99sr.

That’s not right. I almost think it’d be better with no FIA. No carrot. No letters of rating.
Just a good hidden sr system and matching based on q time with minimum sr requirements.
No letters etc for rank no points. Just good matching in dailies and change them daily.

 

[Little_Guppy]

<...snip...>

Actually, the fastest I've done a lap during a race (i.e. without abusing the wall) was 56.2, and I've seen some do it in 56 flat so... .2 of a second still puts me in the same level, considering I'm also .2 of a second slower than the #1 quali time.

<... snip ...>

@NekoPufferPPP ,

Back to racing intel.

Something feels off. Your Top 10 time is 55.3. Your best without the wall is 56.2. Is there really 9/10ths difference? Based on your 55.3 I bet you are capable of a much faster time than 56.2. And if the diff is 9/10th that is huge. My goal is to be about 1% from top 10 off in gR4/FF cars. Based on your numbers I am more comfortable with my present 56.6 and I have a several more tenths within reach but this is no sub 56 for me.

When I legit followed a wallbanging ghost I thought I was much closer than 9/10ths... so hard to tell without good telemetry.