Deep Thoughts

[MatskiMonk]

Meanwhile, so many of those "true Aussies" are locked away, finishing up their MAFS watching session on their ego-stroke tv, having had just enough alcohol to numb the pain of their lifeless existence.

This is a big problem that many people in our country (the UK) don't seem to get. We'll happily berate foreigners who come over 'ere and don't make an effort to integrate into our society - but what do the natives do? They sit on their asses, watching films on Netflix instead of going to the Cinema, getting their takeaway delivered instead of going to a place and getting it, they're buying everything online instead of having to go to the shop, they're a slave to car ownership so they don't have to share public transport space with anybody, they're dating via app rather than social interaction... and when the do occasionally go to a public place where they may have human interaction, they complain it's all foreigners, Polish supermarkets and Turkish barbers.

Convenience is isolating people, and those people think it's other people not integrating.

I wonder if, to a large extent, the loathsome state was created by the people that loathe it.

Certainly the case in the UK. I've just been in France for a few days with friends and one of them, who is a dyed in the wool Conservative voting Brexiteer now wants to move to Europe because how much a of a **** hole he thinks the UK has become... yet it's the people he voted for that got us here.

 

[TexRex]

It's fitting given that a not insignificant portion of the bitch's shtick is pandering to youth nostalgia and the perspective that society has declined, evinced by things seeming worse than narrowly focused childhood memory.

I was blissfully unaware of the madness that surrounded me.

[gasp]

 

[Famine]

I was blissfully unaware of the madness that surrounded me. That’s why it was better.

The contention is that society has degraded over the last 23 years because of [right-wing dogwhistles] and you agree...

... because you were an infant who didn't know anything about "the madness that surrounded" you in 2001.


Are you not seeing how dense that sounds?

I think I do based on the music videos from the time. Guess that’s a poor answer though.

Staggeringly so.

 

[ScottPuss20]

The contention is that society has degraded over the last 23 years because of [right-wing dogwhistles] and you agree...

... because you were an infant who didn't know anything about "the madness that surrounded" you in 2001.


Are you not seeing how dense that sounds?

I know it sounds dense. Perhaps I’ve degraded instead, which I suppose is true in some cases.

 

[HenrySwanson]

I know it sounds dense. Perhaps I’ve degraded instead, which I suppose is true in some cases.

I'd advise a critical thinking course/book lest you get sucked into a narrow and entrenched view of the world.

You've admitted a problem and that is admirable.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I'd advise a critical thinking course/book lest you get sucked into a narrow and entrenched view of the world.

You've admitted a problem and that is admirable.

Oh I know some of my views are flawed so the response here hasn’t surprised me - whether that’s justified is up to you to decide but my dad has a dim view of the world and struggles to understand nuance. He sees things in black and white but as we all know, things aren’t always that simple.

 

[Danoff]

Rosy Retrospective

I have noticed that, for whatever reason, I have less rose-colored glasses than the people around me. Rosy retrospective is a cognitive bias in which one remembers the past more fondly than it actually was. It is a cognitive bias that is on display in the last few pages of this thread, in which people lean on nostalgia, and transfer their own nostalgia to their children, all based on a known failing of the human brain - which is that we tend to remember the good stuff.

In many respects current politics in the US is full of taking advantage of rosy retrospective. MAGA harkens to a time that exists only in people's minds. And in some respects, the same is being used for the period just prior to the pandemic, to appeal to voters sense of having gone "in the wrong direction" when what actually happened was real hardship caused by a global pandemic.

Rosy retrospective is a cognitive bias that I don't like, because it clouds judgment. It leads people to make incorrect decisions today based on an incorrect memory of the past. I'm absolutely sure that I have this cognitive bias, but I also notice that I fight it more than a lot of other people. In consciously fight it, while many of the people around me consciously embrace it. It makes them delusional.... but also happier.

Lacking a rosy retrospective makes you less satisfied with your life, generally more cynical, and overall less social. The human brain most likely enjoys rosy retrospective bias because if you remember all the pain that you experience in your life, it makes you less able to cope with your current situation and makes you less likely to benefit from tribal cooperation. If you remember the pain of childbirth, you don't do it again (voluntarily). If you remember how awful that person was, you don't trade with them, or help them. To take this to a deeper level, this is an element of "forgiveness" that biases our "tit for tat" game theory into one of slightly more optimized cooperation. "Tit for tat" is a game theory that our genetics (and genetics in general in other species) seems to play. And introducing a level of forgiveness into the tit for tat back and forth breaks through blood feuds and enables cooperation with actors that can be cooperated with. It overcomes some noise in the tit for tat system that enables greater cooperation and leads to better overall outcomes than a strict tit for tat game theory. Rosy retrospective is a cognitive bias that seems to be aimed directly at addressing this goal.

So do I want to be delusional? Do I want this cognitive bias? I have to admit that the people around me who exhibit this bias the most seem to be a little happier, even if they can be mislead by it. I remember the bad times from vacations. I remember the hard work and annoyance that went into my wedding day, even though it was amazing. I remember the stress and irritation of my honeymoon, even though it was amazing. The very best times of my life, I can recall some negative or awful event. When we've been on a family cruise, I remember the sea sickness. I remember the lines. I remember the kid that interrupted my nice meal.

My life has been absolutely amazing by most standards. I have had what some have called, to my face, a "charmed" existence. I can recognize objectively that I have it better than a lot of people, and have a ton of reasons to be truly thankful and to pinch myself for my good fortune. I could, maybe should, be far happier than I am with the same set of experiences. But I'm low on rosy retrospective, and it think it brings me down.

I'm not looking to make changes. I think mostly I'll just embrace this aspect of my personality as something that makes me interesting and different. But I do slightly lament the decrease in overall happiness and satisfaction that my brain is causing by resisting the rose colored glasses that are built into humanity.

 

[MatskiMonk]

But I do slightly lament the decrease in overall happiness and satisfaction that my brain is causing by resisting the rose colored glasses that are built into humanity

Is this the case though? I would have thought people who remember the past as being better than it was will find less happiness now, because things feel worse, even though they may objectively not.

I'm naturally pessimistic, but I think part of nostalgia is simply redressing the worry, or the unknown element of past events while we were living them. Long lasting consequences (or even short term ones) are rarely as bad as we believe they could be before, or while they're happening. Once that element is known, and past, we can disregard it, or at least pare it down. You might remember it, but you know it didn't matter, so you place less importance on it.

To a certain degree I think this is true of good things too. I tend not to remember events with a fondness that matches the anticipation beforehand.

 

[Danoff]

Is this the case though? I would have thought people who remember the past as being better than it was will find less happiness now, because things feel worse, even though they may objectively not.

This is a fair point, and one that I totally glossed over. I do think that I come into new events with better managed expectations and a lower general threshold for what I consider to be good or successful. Kids are the worst about this. You're heading to the water park for a day of fun, the kids are convinced this is going to be the single best and most important day of their lives and expectations are through the roof. If a unicorn showed up while they were on a water slide and flew off with them into a rainbow of candy, this would roughly match their level of expectation.

While you're at the water park, sunscreen is applied, the line is long, someone gets stung by a bee, and things generally just don't live up to expectations. As a result, tears ensue, this is the worst, everything is terrible. But if you ask them the next day, the waterpark trip was the best thing ever and they want to go back as soon as humanly possible.

I often find myself approaching such a situation with a clear memory of the previous trip, ready to work hard, knowing there will be tears, knowing that my disappointed children are going to tell me how awful this expensive and difficult outing is, and often end up somewhat pleasantly surprised at how well the trip went. That's because often in my projection of how the event is going to go, I fail to consider that they have aged and generally gained experience since last time, and are better prepared to manage themselves and have a good time.

So you're probably right about this leading to a better current mood, or a better mood in the face of adversity. I guess I was thinking of this more from the perspective of overall life satisfaction rather than in the moment.