Defund the Police?

[GranTurNismo]

I don't think laying people off is a great way to handle that.


Scrutinizing the police force and firing people for misconduct? Go ahead.

But downsizing the police force inevitably results in less cops. And large urban police departments like the LAPD and NYPD generally have more cops that are necessary (and are often overpaid). Since the murder of George Floyd, cities across the country announced budget cuts for their police departments. If these cops are no longer cops where else would they be redirected to without being laid off?

When police forces are essentially a brotherhood, even a "gang" dare I say it, officers being fired for misconduct, let alone getting their complaints looked into, is much harder than it sounds.

 

[Famine]

It's not that police aren't being trained enough, they're being trained in exactly the wrong way. They're being trained to cover their ass instead of laying it on the line. And that's leading to innocent people getting shot and beaten, and it lends excuses for excessive force by bullies and assholes on the force.

Their training is counterproductive, and their firearms and equipment is excessive for what they should be asked to do. Also the use of SWAT is way to frequent, for too many situations.

Also, we need to be prosecuting and firing police officers that fail or refuse to protect citizens.

All of this. Being a police officer should be one of the most dangerous jobs there is, and it should be rewarded as such, because the job is to put yourself in harm's way to protect other people's rights. If they're shooting anything first, except to remove a person who is an active, direct threat to another person, they're not doing that.

And then there's **** like Breonna Taylor - cops force entry to a house, unannounced (but with a warrant) to find a guy they already have in custody, and come under fire from someone defending his house from unannounced thugs breaking in, with a legally held firearm. They return fire (one blindly shooting through the house from outside), kill his girlfriend (Breonna Taylor), and charge him with attempted murder.


We haven't even touched on America's police unions that act like cartels - including the rehiring of cops previously removed for misconduct, and taking longer to respond to 911 calls in electoral areas where someone they don't like (because they've called out the cartel, or suggested defunding) is in office.

 

[FoRiZon]

Ah, I instantly remembered this. It's possibly the worst police brutality I've ever witnessed and I cant stand after seeing the footage of it (note: please dont, its NSFW and very emotionally charged if you're not a sociopath like the shooter).

All police brutality are bad. Its just its takes the cake for me.

 

[Sander 001]

Here's ultimately what I'm getting at. Why does the US need a militarized police force, when a more militarized police force is linked to a greater amount of deaths/police brutality and shows no real decrease in crime?

The need to maintain the military industrial complex. If surplus military hardware can be made available to domestic law enforcement, military spending will appear less wasteful.

 

[DesertPenguin]

A lot of surplus military firearms end in civilian hands too. It's a big part of where they end up.

 

[Liquid]

If there's anything in the US that does need defunding, the armed forces by way of the defence budget would be a terrific start.

 

[Dotini]

If there's anything in the US that does need defunding, the armed forces by way of the defence budget would be a terrific start.

You'll be glad to know the US is pulling major elements of the US military from Germany.

 

[huskeR32]

It shouldn't be easy to become an officer

This cuts right to heart of things, in my view.

—

Just another poorly thought out lefty idea.

Just another poorly thought out righty post.

Agree with the idea of defunding or not, there are plenty of fleshed out ideas out there about how to do it, and what to put in place instead. Just because you can’t be bothered to learn about “lefty” ideas doesn’t mean they’re all just pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

 

[McLaren]

Minneapolis (CNN) - Nine members of the Minneapolis City Council on Sunday announced they intend to defund and dismantle the city's police department following the police killing of George Floyd.

City council members had previously said they would take steps to dismantle the police department, including Bender, who tweeted earlier this week, "Yes. We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with a transformative new model of public safety."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/g...lYtuOhy0Jvesz7B1JqKQqzTo4mNkNwCR5Gx1ZwLo-_giw

Not sure how to feel about this. Guessing it means reform really, but doesn't seem to give out a clear message yet as to how.

 

[Northstar]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/g...lYtuOhy0Jvesz7B1JqKQqzTo4mNkNwCR5Gx1ZwLo-_giw

Not sure how to feel about this. Thought maybe it meant policing under new guidelines, but this quote implies no police presence at all?

That seems to be the case.

We recognize that we don’t have all the answers about what a police-free future looks like, but our community does. We’re committing to engaging with every willing community member in the City of Minneapolis over the next year to identify what safety looks like for everyone.

https://kstp.com/news/majority-of-m...-dismantling-police-department/5753304/?cat=1

I really hope they come up with a good plan because this doesn't seem like the type of thing that only goes a little bit wrong.

 

[McLaren]

That seems to be the case.

https://kstp.com/news/majority-of-m...-dismantling-police-department/5753304/?cat=1

I really hope they come up with a good plan because this doesn't seem like the type of thing that only goes a little bit wrong.

Just want to say, apologize for the edit in advance as I didn't see your reply. I thought my brain was going into limp mode, so I must've been reading that sentence wrong & changed to something that voiced my concern more clearly on the lack of a plan outlined.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Don't defund the police. Sack the GI Jabroni wannabes and give them a packet of crayons to eat. Train better, more considerate officers.

Police forces need culture changes and better training, not eliminating entirely.

This kind of thing isn't in my wheelhouse, but thats what I think as well. I've met fantastic cops and one awful one.

The 'bad' one liked to drive the streets at night daring citizens to mess with him. My friend and I were driving home one night (sober, thank god) and a cop pulls directly beside us as I'm telling a story of how I visited Bruce & Brandon's memorial. He pulls us over and said he thought I was making a rude gesture at him, I said no I was just telling a story. He believed me but then said how he likes to find guys who want to mess with cops.


Jerome

 

[05XR8]

Never mind risking ones life daily.
You lost me at defund.

I get the OP and defunding the police. I rather there be more whistleblowing. Bump that snitches get stitches crap(people that do dirt in general). That's why it's a mess.

As for the risk. We risk ourselves at home daily.

Anyway, from 1992-1993, I was risking my life working for NYNEX. I worked in East NY(Brookyn) Avenue D, for a summer. I went into the Pink Houses by myself(sometimes with an assigned escort). Many jobs I turned away due to the risks I saw while entering some streets, before even getting to the buildings. Worked in the Williamsburg Brooklyn Central Office. Just taking the train from my Bronx neighborhood to there, was an everyday risk.
Ratio of telephone workers to cops being shot/killed/spat upon/injured on duty. you got me. So, it'd have to be where a cop is based.

Most of my phone company career(1994-2007) was in my hometown, The Bronx, with a few months in Manhattan. During the Clinton era, I did make good money. At the same time, my Brother was already NYPD. He had a gun, I had a screwdriver. We both were inm and around the same areas. I was referred to as PoPo numerous times. Undercover officers would use NYTelephone vans for survelance.
Me and co-workers travlled in groups, as we did most of our construction, removal and maintenance of phone lines. South Bronx, PAtterson Projects, over by St. Marys, Crimmins, 138th St, Jerome Ave, 167th St, at that time, were dangerous most of the time.
One of my white partners and myself, got a job to fix lines in Morrisania. A wor colleague had just been robbed by gunpoint a few days earlier. As soon as we walked towards the entrance, dudes out front were running inside, calls yelled out and one says, "I hope you make it back to your van!". I grabbed my partner, made a u-turn and left. Why risk that mess?

As for the pay, I'm not sure how much NYPD start at now, but I think around 2004(?), starting salary had dropped from about $38,000 to $25,000 for new recruits. I made about $63,000 in my first full time year(1994) as a phone man. I was 23. I wasn't much for overtime and left in 2007, at about $77,000(2006 tax year).

Sad to say, but I worked around the corner from where Amadu Diallo was killed, a day before it happened. Many cops actually take jobs in high crimes areas, for the overtime. So, in Long Island, cops(as fas as I remember) were/are paid more in low crime areas. There's no logic in that.
A rookie fresh out of school, with only a diploma, living on their own, no kids, used car with no note. Gets put on the beat alone. In a bad neighborhood. What's that worth?

 

[Groundfish]

@05XR8 100 percent understand that risk. 100 percent.
Kinda knew a fella who worked for a gas utility. Regulator specialist ie sizing and install/maintain. He was same way certain areas are a no fly zone.
He had some stories, luckily knew a few of the bad actors for various reasons, said saved him from being beaten several times...
Old street drag racer, knew a lotta folks...
One of my cousins looked into becoming police for a while often what these guys did here at that time was to work bad areas to get time in then move to more desirable areas. Certain bad areas pay very well but that’s a single guy life.
All about risk v reward. Lotta oil companies in the nineties offered big money going to the Middle East like say for engineers of various sorts.
Risk reward.
You don’t see 90 plus percent of successful good police work that happens, only the oh crap moments, which are inevitable.
One oh crap ruins 200 attaboys.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

In 1968, Menlo Park (CA) attempted to reform their police by changing their uniform...with interesting if ultimately unclear results:

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-blazer-experiment/

I wonder if something like this could be attempted again? Get police out of their squad cars and back on the foot-beat. Give them back their humanity. Remove the faceless and militant nature of their current evolution.

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Dotini]

In 1968, Menlo Park (CA) attempted to reform their police by changing their uniform...with interesting if ultimately unclear results:

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-blazer-experiment/

I wonder if something like this could be attempted again? Get police out of their squad cars and back on the foot-beat. Give them back their humanity. Remove the faceless and militant nature of their current evolution.

Seems reasonable to me.

In Seattle the standard police uniform used to be two-tone blue and include a necktie (clip-on). Now they are black and militaristic.

In 1968 during the heights of the protests and riots, the black community devised a plan to end the police department as the system of law enforcement and institute their own on Capitol Hill. Managed by the Black Panthers, it involved black occupied houses all barricaded with sandbags and plywood, with gunports bristling with shotguns and rifles. Needless to say, police gave these places a wide berth.

 

[ryzno]

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending...ound-nation-world/RGRPI6LKAZH7TC6N5A3AL42S3Y/

It's somewhat hid in the whole article but it looks like Minneapolis is going to dismantle their police department...

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Joey D]

You don’t see 90 plus percent of successful good police work that happens, only the oh crap moments, which are inevitable.

You don't see it because it's what a cop is supposed to do, they're supposed to serve the community as well as protect it. What they're not supposed to do is harm the community and that's why that sort of stuff gets so much attention.

I do really positive stuff every day at work, but it's what I'm paid to do and no one says a word. If I did something negative to hurt the organization, you better believe it'd make the news.

 

[Dennisch]

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending...ound-nation-world/RGRPI6LKAZH7TC6N5A3AL42S3Y/

It's somewhat hid in the whole article but it looks like Minneapolis is going to dismantle their police department...

What could possibly go wrong?

The people will take care of it themselves. It will be one big Utopian Paradise, full of peace loving humans who all look after one another, without injustice and crime.

 

[Liquid]

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending...ound-nation-world/RGRPI6LKAZH7TC6N5A3AL42S3Y/

It's somewhat hid in the whole article but it looks like Minneapolis is going to dismantle their police department...

What could possibly go wrong?

Just send in the army to do the police's job and consider the problem solved.

 

[DesertPenguin]

I'm watching Last Week Tonight's episode from last night about the police and he cites Camden, NJ as an example of where they actually disbanded the police and forced them to reapply.

Warning: Foul Language

 

[JKgo]

I'm watching Last Week Tonight's episode from last night about the police and he cites Camden, NJ as an example of where they actually disbanded the police and forced them to reapply.

...I've watched that, and it's a pretty powerful stuff.

BTW, you should put an [NSFW] tag on the video, since it's got a whole lot of F-bombs.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I wonder how many anti-union, free market capitalists are very pro-police union?

(Disclosure: I'm anti-union all around )

 

[McLaren]

The people will take care of it themselves. It will be one big Utopian Paradise, full of peace loving humans who all look after one another, without injustice and crime.

Judging by several folks' concern on Minneapolis' subreddit, they'd be open to it if the council actually had a detailed plan, but it appears they don't? Many arguing this is receiving its backlash instantly b/c it just says, "Dismantle & disband", instead of a clearer message. TMU, it appears the idea could be to save police officers for offenses that need them, and send different folks to lesser interactions. But, that's not apparently the official plan either & many have concerns on how it will be determined when/if a police officer is needed.

Those that are linking MPD150 however, that site does really seem to imply a utopian paradise.

 

[GranTurNismo]

I'm assuming, although Minneapolis hasn't officially laid out their plans, the traditional police force will be replaced with community policing. There's not really any data on whether community policing will be a better alternative (though I hope it will be) simply because it really hasn't been tried anywhere in the US. It seems as if some people think that Minneapolis abolishing the police force as we know it will result crime spikes, anarchy, and thousands of laid off cops that can't find jobs. I doubt any of that will be true.

I will say though, Minneapolis needs to get this right. This is super important in terms of what the future of policing the US will look like. If a community policing system is implemented that brings down crime, lessens misconduct/racism, then I predict cities across the country will switch to this model. But if it goes wrong, whether that be because crime goes up, or it's just too costly to run, there will be a real problem. People won't soon forget about an alternative to the traditional police force failing, and that will prevent any systemic change in terms of policing nationwide. Right-wing demagogues already are predicting that Minneapolis abolishing their PD will be a colossal failure, and if it is that, the right-wing will only win yet again.

 

[Tornado]

Does Minnesota not have troopers and sheriffs?

 

[McLaren]

I'm assuming, although Minneapolis hasn't officially laid out their plans, the traditional police force will be replaced with community policing. There's not really any data on whether community policing will be a better alternative (though I hope it will be) simply because it really hasn't been tried anywhere in the US. It seems as if some people think that Minneapolis abolishing the police force as we know it will result crime spikes, anarchy, and thousands of laid off cops that can't find jobs. I doubt any of that will be true.

I will say though, Minneapolis needs to get this right. This is super important in terms of what the future of policing the US will look like. If a community policing system is implemented that brings down crime, lessens misconduct/racism, then I predict cities across the country will switch to this model. But if it goes wrong, whether that be because crime goes up, or it's just too costly to run, there will be a real problem. People won't soon forget about an alternative to the traditional police force failing, and that will prevent any systemic change in terms of policing nationwide. Right-wing demagogues already are predicting that Minneapolis abolishing their PD will be a colossal failure, and if it is that, the right-wing will only win yet again.

I think the model people believe they will follow is Camden, NJ where their original police force was abolished in exchange for the current Camden County Police Department. From my understanding, I think the relationship has been described as the county being a "client" of the police department's services & that they are available to other municipalities if asked. That model has appeared to have work, but there's still been some hesitation with users wondering if that model's ability to service 80,000 people can easily be applied to Minneapolis' 400,000. Some are arguing that Camden was so bad, abolishing was likely the only thing left & that MPD isn't much better than Camden was before the switch.

Of course, the difference underlined is that Camden just replaced a terrible police force with a new one that had new guidelines to follow & strictly enforces its reasons for change. Minneapolis council hasn't yet acknowledged if this is their real plan or if they are looking towards your thoughts on it.

Edit* I reminded by Famine's comments on the union as well. If I read the posts correctly from people sharing the transition, one of the positives (& reasons they had to abolish than reform) was the removal of the old department's union.

 

[Famine]

We haven't even touched on America's police unions that act like cartels - including the rehiring of cops previously removed for misconduct, and taking longer to respond to 911 calls in electoral areas where someone they don't like (because they've called out the cartel, or suggested defunding) is in office.

Fun fact - this was MPD's union, and councilman Steve Fletcher.

Also the union's contract with the city says all disciplinary records are purged every three years (some aren't even kept longer than six months), so they routinely rehire cops who've been kicked off the force...

Does Minnesota not have troopers and sheriffs?

Yup, Minnesota State Troopers, and Minneapolis falls under the jurisdiction of Hennepin County Sheriff's Office.

I have to say that I find the USA's model of law enforcement truly baffling. I found out the above while researching it a couple of days ago - it's like the whole thing is as deliberately vague and obtuse as possible, with overlapping jurisdictions and departments within departments alongside other departments... and judges and sheriffs that people vote for rather than for any particular knowledge of law or legality... How can being a judge be a popularity contest?

 

[Liquid]

the union's contract with the city says all disciplinary records are purged every three years (some aren't even kept longer than six months

That is just astonishing. Criminal records last forever but police disciplinary records? Shredded.

An unfathomable lack of accountability. Outstanding corruption. To paraphrase, it is one nation under the jackboot with liberty and justice for none.

 

[05XR8]

Messaged my brother about police disciplinary records. He said NYPD keep their disciplinary actions forever. I'm not sure about rehiring fired officers.