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Defund the Police?
- Thread starter GranTurNismo
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- SpacedustDaddy
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The situation is a wet paper bag - simple at first sight, but trying to work with it without tearing it is difficult.
We’re at the point where we know the solutions to problems, we just don’t know how to go along with making sure these solutions can be put in place without chaos.
The founding fathers’ solution to a peaceful democracy is that paper bag.
You can defund police, but they can still be brutalizing citizens. If defunding police means taking away power, especially political power, I am for it.
We’re at the point where we know the solutions to problems, we just don’t know how to go along with making sure these solutions can be put in place without chaos.
The founding fathers’ solution to a peaceful democracy is that paper bag.
You can defund police, but they can still be brutalizing citizens. If defunding police means taking away power, especially political power, I am for it.
For a police force, the SFPD has an okay track record. Living in SF, they actually managed to do their job of policing and the harassment seemed to be to a minimum. If anything, racist residents living in San Francisco made their jobs harder due to complaints and calls made off discriminate profiling.
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- SpacedustDaddy
I was told this by family members that live in Florida. Laughed. Then, my sister tags me with this;
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f...ed-over-police-misconduct/ar-BB15cOcS?ocid=sf
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f...ed-over-police-misconduct/ar-BB15cOcS?ocid=sf
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- Elizabeth, New Jersey, USA
Here's a thought. In many European countries, it takes much longer to be a police officer than it does in the states. US police academy is only 21 weeks long. In Finland, Norway, or Germany, police academy takes three years. I know it's just correlation and not causation, but the aforementioned nations have a police brutality rate that's astronomically lower than that of the US. Should US police academy be longer than less than half a year? Would that even help solve the issues at hand?
Danoff
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Lots of progress has come of this. I hope it sticks.
Can we get some better names for this stuff so that it's not so easily marginalized and ignored? Because if we have to come up with a big explanation for what the group "represents" maybe the name sucks. "Defund the police" is a crap slogan if it doesn't mean defund the police. "Black lives matter" is also a crap name for "black lives matter too".
Seriously, it just makes the nay-sayer's job easier.
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
A lot of this looks somewhat reasonable to me. Certainly they are not mental health counselors or social workers. However, they do currently respond to 911 calls for domestic disturbance. My understanding is that the Defund Reform will end the response of armed police to domestic disturbance calls. I am pretty sure officers will be glad to give up this sort of duty.Lots of progress has come of this. I hope it sticks.
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- 2,421
- Kentucky, USA
- James_Page
- PageyTheSquid
I'll start out by saying that I am a Law Enforcement Officer and I don't intend on responding to a lot in this thread. I've been dealing with the protests and riots in Louisville and frankly, I'm burnt out and try to stay away from all this crap while I'm not at work. Anyway, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things.
Police respond to a lot of active shooters. I haven't been on GTP in a while, but if I'm not mistaken, you've got a decent collection of guns, right? If I was responding to an active shooter who likely had a long gun, or something other than a handgun, I know I'd much rather have an AR-15, or something similar, rather than just my Glock 35. I don't see an issue with Police having something other than their sidearm to engage shooters who have long guns.
That isn't entirely true. Breonna Taylor's name was on the warrant, along with two other people, one who they already had in custody. This is a pretty good article about the situation.
https://www.wave3.com/2020/05/13/fa..._MxLQKjXRaU8DlzHXxgbjqRNO4Ak0y7kg4BhKvG6z77bU
That being said, there are a lot of things that went wrong. I don't give a rat's behind about drugs, there is, in my opinion, absolutely no reason to issue a no-knock warrant for drugs. The Officers say that they knocked, even though it was a no-knock warrant, but without body cam footage, we can't be certain. I've been saved from lies by my body cam multiple times and think everyone employed as an Officer should have one on while they are working. My department has body cams that have to be turned on manually, because there is no way for one to last for a 16 hour shift, and there have been times where I've been in incidents where I didn't activate my body cam. A lot of people claim that is because we're trying to hide something, more often than not it is simply because I'm not going to think to turn my body cam on if I got sucker punched or I'm being shot at, my focus is in protecting myself in that moment. Thankfully all the times it has happened to me there have been other videos that have shown exactly what happened, that isn't always the case, though.
Personally, if what Kenneth Walker is saying is true, I have no problems with him shooting. I'd do the same exact thing he did, and I'm glad all the charges against him were dropped. Again, personally, I think the Officers involved should be fired. We (as in law enforcement, I can't speak for that particular department) were never taught to blindly fire through windows, in fact, we're taught to only shoot what we can see, otherwise, something exactly like this might happen.
Police respond to a lot of active shooters. I haven't been on GTP in a while, but if I'm not mistaken, you've got a decent collection of guns, right? If I was responding to an active shooter who likely had a long gun, or something other than a handgun, I know I'd much rather have an AR-15, or something similar, rather than just my Glock 35. I don't see an issue with Police having something other than their sidearm to engage shooters who have long guns.
That isn't entirely true. Breonna Taylor's name was on the warrant, along with two other people, one who they already had in custody. This is a pretty good article about the situation.
https://www.wave3.com/2020/05/13/fa..._MxLQKjXRaU8DlzHXxgbjqRNO4Ak0y7kg4BhKvG6z77bU
That being said, there are a lot of things that went wrong. I don't give a rat's behind about drugs, there is, in my opinion, absolutely no reason to issue a no-knock warrant for drugs. The Officers say that they knocked, even though it was a no-knock warrant, but without body cam footage, we can't be certain. I've been saved from lies by my body cam multiple times and think everyone employed as an Officer should have one on while they are working. My department has body cams that have to be turned on manually, because there is no way for one to last for a 16 hour shift, and there have been times where I've been in incidents where I didn't activate my body cam. A lot of people claim that is because we're trying to hide something, more often than not it is simply because I'm not going to think to turn my body cam on if I got sucker punched or I'm being shot at, my focus is in protecting myself in that moment. Thankfully all the times it has happened to me there have been other videos that have shown exactly what happened, that isn't always the case, though.
Personally, if what Kenneth Walker is saying is true, I have no problems with him shooting. I'd do the same exact thing he did, and I'm glad all the charges against him were dropped. Again, personally, I think the Officers involved should be fired. We (as in law enforcement, I can't speak for that particular department) were never taught to blindly fire through windows, in fact, we're taught to only shoot what we can see, otherwise, something exactly like this might happen.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
You might be on duty for 16 hours and then potentially be required to carry a firearm into a high-pressure situation? That seems irresponsible on the part of the people setting the shifts.
I have to say I'd never thought of police shift hours - firearms officers in the UK are limited to 8 hours unless there are exceptional circumstances (that would be an all-officer recall such as a large-scale terrorist incident). 16 hours for "routine" work carrying firearms seems... crazy. I wouldn't want to travel in a train/bus with a driver that had been at work for 16 hours, and obviously they'd lose their job if they tried to work that long.
EDIT: That isn't aimed at you personally - just at the system in general.
- 2,421
- Kentucky, USA
- James_Page
- PageyTheSquid
Our shifts are supposed to be 8 hours but my department has had a shortage of Officers for years so if there isn't enough day shift Officers, I get forced to do another 8 hours. A lot of departments have moved to 12 hour shifts to prevent exactly that, my department has talked about it (and did it as some point in the '90s) but nothing has changed yet.
- 76
- Illinois
People are suggesting "police reform" but what sort of reform are they talking about/suggesting?
In my department (large city), there's CIT training, body cams, multiple de-escalation courses, taser, situational awareness, active shooter, and that's to name a few. It's come in handy at times but only at times.
I can only speak for my department, we're not mental health counselors but I and many others are responding to many of those calls and usually it's not a situation in which a normal health care worker is willing to go into.
@Dotini Responding to domestics and I've been in a fair share of them, and is usually never an easy call. You're walking into a usually highly volatile situation in which all it takes is for one person to snap and someone can end up gravely injured. Words being hurled can quickly turn to fists and in some cases bullets and that can be before I even knock on the door. I wouldn't want to put anyone who's not an officer in that situation and even then I'd highly advise caution.
In regards to an officer's salary. That's varies from city to city, town to town and some officers are also part of their loc fire departments and can also be dependent on their training, certifications, their role and time on job.
In my department (large city), there's CIT training, body cams, multiple de-escalation courses, taser, situational awareness, active shooter, and that's to name a few. It's come in handy at times but only at times.
I can only speak for my department, we're not mental health counselors but I and many others are responding to many of those calls and usually it's not a situation in which a normal health care worker is willing to go into.
@Dotini Responding to domestics and I've been in a fair share of them, and is usually never an easy call. You're walking into a usually highly volatile situation in which all it takes is for one person to snap and someone can end up gravely injured. Words being hurled can quickly turn to fists and in some cases bullets and that can be before I even knock on the door. I wouldn't want to put anyone who's not an officer in that situation and even then I'd highly advise caution.
In regards to an officer's salary. That's varies from city to city, town to town and some officers are also part of their loc fire departments and can also be dependent on their training, certifications, their role and time on job.
Joey D
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For starters, cops could start policing themselves and stop trying to protect bad cops. I know most cops are just trying to do their job, collect a paycheck, and get home safely each night. But by allowing bad cops to get away with stuff, it plays into the stereotype that all cops are bad. That would go a long way in ensuring that good cops, or at least average cops, can continue doing their job effectively.
Cops could also quit hiding behind the excuse "I feared for my life". Is being a police officer dangerous? Sure, I have no doubt about that. But anyone who becomes a cop should know this and they should know this. All too often it seems like we see videos come out where a cop said they feared for their lives when the suspect wasn't even remotely a threat. I feel like there's got to be some sort of threat identification training, as well as training to help control an adrenaline rush.
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I vote for Defunk the Police
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- SpacedustDaddy
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Can't do that when you're defunded and on half the budget, though can you?
Anyway you can't look at Europe and just transfer a policy over because you believe that alone will have a specific impact you are looking for. Over this side legally owning a gun is a very difficult task (and it differs very much from country to country). Firing a gun from a police official also has a very big impact on him. So these alone change greatly how everyone behaves. Copying just something won't work.
But yeah, surprisingly education helps in preventing violence. Not just for the police.
- 76
- Illinois
That's a per department policy, and shouldn't be mentioned as a blanket argument as not all departments allow it. A fellow officer of mine asked this question years ago and our Use of Force said that it can only be used in a life or death situation when nothing else is available and even then you have to constantly adjust to the situation.
There are ways in which we do that. Our supervisors are not only reviewing or reports, but also body camera footage and in car videos. Their supervisors also review it and above them, a Use of Force Unit and Internal Affairs. The whole "I feared for my life," by itself doesn't stand up in grand jury anymore and hasn't for awhile, everything is taken into account, as in the totality of the circumstances.
Zona
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- Amowtek
I don't think we should defund the Police, we should look at re distrubuting the money around the forces to provide more resources for Officer training. I think the main focus should be on demilitarizing the Police. The regular Police do not need MRAP's or assault rifles.
Joey D
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I'm sure there are way departments do review what happened, but it's clearly not very good across the board. Also, as mentioned several times in this thread, police unions are incredibly overpowered at keeping bad cops in uniform and on the payroll. But what I was alluding to was that fellow officers should keep other fellow officers in check and the culture of "well they're my superior" should be axed immediately. In my line of work, if my lead, manager, or director were doing something to put patient data at risk, I'd say something, in fact I have said something, more than once. Is it easy to do? Not at all but sometimes it's needed.
Cops could also quit trying to stand behind other cops that violate the law or overstep their boundaries. Here in Salt Lake City, we had a detective who tried to force a nurse to draw a blood sample from a badly burned accident victim without a warrant. When the nurse refused, because an unauthorized blood draw is illegal, she was arrested. The detective was fired from the police force, but immediately hired elsewhere because of course "he did nothing wrong". That detective should not be able to ever work as a cop again if he can't understand something as simple as "you need a warrant for that".
As for the whole, "I feared for my life" not holding up to a grand jury, forgive me, but that's absolutely not true. There are plenty of news stories out there covering the phenomena of cops getting away with crimes too: Example 1, Example 2, Example 3.
Philando Castile was shot by Jeronimo Yanez after Castile told him he had a legal, licensed firearm in the car with him. I've been to classes, I know that if you're pulled over and carrying a weapon you let the cop know immediately. They're supposed to disarm you if they feel unsafe. What did Yanez do? Shot Castile five times at nearly point-blank range after never attempting to disarm Castile. The outcome? Yanez walked and was given nearly $50k to leave the department all because he feared for his life when Castile was simply getting his wallet.
Terence Crutcher was shot by Betty Jo Shelby because he didn't know what was happening to his vehicle that was inoperable in the middle of the road. Was he on drugs? The autopsy said yes, but did that mean he deserved to be shot? Absolutely not. Crutcher was even tased by another officer before Shelby shot him all because she feared for her life. Shelby's punishment? Acquittal and she was rehired on another police force in Rogers County, Oklahoma.
Freddie Gray was literally killed while in custody, as in arrested and in the back of a transport van. He died either due to excessive force by the officers or outright neglect. The outcome? Three officers were acquitted and three had the charges dropped.
These are just a few well-known examples and I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands more.
Something closer to home that just happened is the killing of Bernardo Palacios-Carbajal. While Palacios-Carbajal did have a gun, he was shot 20 times in the back while running from police. Do you know what's not endangering your life? A suspect running away from you. I feel like in this instance a taser would've been the right call.
Here's the bodycam footage of what happened, it does involve someone being repeatedly shot so I'll put it in spoilers:
Seriously, 20 times in the back with several of the shots landing after the suspect is on the ground and clearly incapacitated or dead? If that doesn't scream abuse of power because they "feared for their lives" I'm not sure what does. And you know what? I'd put money on it that these officers walk without any form of disciplinary action.
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- TenEightyOne
I think a psychologist would make a lot of the "pack" element in this incident. It's normal to feel an irrational fear when signs of fear are displayed by people around you, it's also natural to pile on when the people around you are doing that. That's a dangerous thing in firearms teams (well d'uh) but it can be greatly ameliorated with better training and mental conditioning.
The incident you show is just... well... it's murderous, imo, even if the state laws turn out to allow the shooting of a suspect if it's feared their escape presents a danger to others, or whatever the PD's excuse is.
UKMikey
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First hand outline of the cancerous infection known as the blue code of silence
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Not to say that training isn't a problem, but hours spent in training isn't the best metric to use. Technically speaking, if you could get the same quality of preparation out of less hours spent training, that's a good thing. It would be better to focus on what the current training program is missing.
UKMikey
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I have no idea how many hours of training it would take to properly prepare officers for their job. I just don't want time spent training to end up being the thing people focus on. It's definitely possible to spend a lot of time getting nothing done. That said it's reasonable to point out the vast difference between the US and other countries and to infer improved training processes could require more time, but I don't see why a longer training period would necessarily result in better officers.
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