Demo - Too much simulation, not enough game

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Lets hope GT5 physics stay like in the Time Trial but I do understand the OP.

It is pretty much guaranteed that GT5 will sell well but the Time Trial is in the demo section, and many hate to read so they will take it as a GT5 demo. Out of the 10 million that bought GT4, maybe 5% are hardcore (just guessing don't shoot). That was on the PS2, with which the PS3 can not compete on the amount of users. So the non-hardcore needs to be catered to, for it to be a successful game.

The best way PD/Sony should have done is release a proper demo with all physics and with that or after release the Time Trial for the hardcore. As much as I love the simulation part of the game, I want the game to be extremely successful for all markets, be it standard, pro or sim.
 
As with everyone I know, EVEN my girlfriend.. the more simulations, the more fun.

I don't think the "demo" was quite simulation enough, though I think it will be in the full game.. but never have I been so excited for Gran Turismo (I started with GT1 on release) since I played the TT.

GT has always been a simulator, but now with the Ps3, Kaz's vision can be put into the game that much more.. and he says what is it.. he wants to make the most realistic driving simulator?

It seems he is doing exactly what he's always said, people should expect this from GT by now, people also expect driving aids and "standard" physics for the less hardcore who, in my experience, switch to "professional" physics over time.

NFS Shift is out there for the more casual, while GT5 seems to be more along the lines of PC sim quality physics and its about time.

Why, OP, do you care about the sales and new GT'ers buying the game so much?

I know I'm hoping for the fullest racing sim to date but I'm sure we won't control our car during yellow flag laps, warm-up laps, coming into and out of the pits, tires coming off the car - and I could go on, and I can also hope some of those features are in the game - as an option perhaps?
Very nice post! Totally agree! 👍

The new physics are definitely PC sim level, period. 👍

Merry christmas by the way! It's 1:00AM in Sweden. ;)
 
1am, December 24TH though Strittan. :P You're a day premature, or 23hrs to be exact. :D Our New Zealand brethren get to christmas in less than 11hrs as it's already 1PM over there and they are pretty much the closest country to the International Date Line. :cool:
 
1am, December 24TH though Strittan. :P You're a day premature, or 23hrs to be exact. :D Our New Zealand brethren get to christmas in less than 11hrs as it's already 1PM over there and they are pretty much the closest country to the International Date Line. :cool:
Forgot to tell you that scandinavians are celebrating christmas on 24th, so here it IS christmas NOW. ;)
 
I agree that the time trial is quite difficult but like people have said, it's a competition ti drive a real racing car so PD are showing how realistic GT5 will be if you choose to play it that way. You can't have people driving round with standard physics then jumping in a racing car!

Personally I think they should have also included standard physics in the time trial but the top 20 people win a free copy of GT5 or something.
 
This is supposed to be a simulator. Do you really think when you get in a real car that your going to have a cool line that shows you everything your supposed to do.

No. There was no line, there was a guy sitting next to me telling me when to turn in, ease off the brakes, go back on the throttle, and so forth. He even cared to explain what I have done wrong and how I could improve myself. Has a line ever talked to you in that way? ;)

Why do you think professional racing drivers have a whole team backing them up? Because everyone needs some hand in getting those last 5% perfection. You can't do everything on your own.

I would just be interested how much money the "ultimate hard as it can get realism" members would be prepared to cough up for such a game.

100 €? 1000 €? 10.000 €? Who do you think pays for the shiny graphics, the 900 cars, 20 tracks, online servers?

Sometimes I wonder why people who only want to race at the highest level possible even bother with GT. Do they have no love for cars? Don't they see that the whole franchise is a tribute to the beauty of these machines?

Why would they care about a game that has the most ridiculous vehicles in the line-up? Why include roadcars? They're not fit for proper racing.

It makes me feel a bit sad that there's always this constant fight going on. If not millions of people who want to enjoy themselves had bought the game, then GT wouldn't be as successful as it is today.

In addition, little helpers like TCS, ABS and such are just a logical result of technology moving on. A lot has been done to suspensions and the understanding of what parameters influence the handling of a car.

30 years ago you had a man in a shed with rulers and an abacus designing cars, today the heavy use of computers in development is so natural no-one gives a second thought. Would you go so far as to say a proper car is only a car developed by "hand" without any electronic aids? Just put it on the road and see if it works?

Would you rule out the use of telemetry data, because you should be able to drive the car with your instinct anyway?

GT has always been a very happy in-between, and they always made sure they sneaked in some "serious" stuff.

It's not the casual gamers who should be grateful, it's the fanatics who get the shiny graphics, the insane car variety, good representation of real world tracks AND some challenging gameplay.
 
Why do you think professional racing drivers have a whole team backing them up? Because everyone needs some hand in getting those last 5% perfection. You can't do everything on your own.

Real racing is more about the team than the driver anyway. Obviously the good driver or rider will do better, but without the good team to put them in the right machine all the driver skill isn't worth much.

But yeah I agree with you, I dont get why people think it'd be good to scare off the mainstream... if you feel that way you should just play PC sims that cater purely for the sim crowd. The only reason GT5 can have 1000 cars, heaps of tracks and cutting edge graphics is the funding they get from being a popular game for the mainstream. You dont have a room of developers sitting around for 5 years in government funded housing living off fresh air and dreams, a game like GT takes large amounts of money to develop which comes from being popular to the mainstream. If being uber-sim made games popular, then PC sims would be the ones with huge budgets, huge dev teams and hundreds of cars with cutting edge graphics.
 
Please stop crying about sales, and the possibility of what the future can bring. Sony has already shown that its game development is a labor of love, versus the draw of the dollar, and just the dollar. Else we would get nothing but Shooters, Rushed games,and family titles. Its exclusive titles aren't selling as well as they would if say they had a 30 million dollar advertising budget like Halo3 for instance, and some how, Sony keeps pushing out even better games the second time around. Motorstorm 1 & 2, Uncharted 1 & 2, MGS4, Ratchet & Clank, GT-HD, GTmobile, GT5p, GT5:TT. I mean it doesn't matter that they aren't breaking record numbers for games, they are selling fine over a lifetime. Which is only apparent when you look at the lineup.

GT:TT is hard. I love it, because Rfactor is hard, just as GTR is hard, as is live For Speed. I'm willing to bet there are more simulation fans that love the new physics, than there are people that can't adjust their driving inputs and put out any decent times. And thankfully, these are people that have purchased GT. Not the "Need for speed mainstream" audience. Its simple. You can't go WOT/Full Brake lock as much as you could in GT5p. And if Professional is too hard, GT always has baby physics as an option.

Anyone following GT:TT enough to care about it, to even know its on the PSN store can read its a time trial for GT5 academy. Anyone that plays it, can see that its a time trial with fixed settings. Anyone that plays it could make the assumption that the 370z stock is a handful, but the Tuned is a bit of a more balanced vehicle for high speed driving. I'm not seeing the exodus from the franchise due to its Time Trial demo. But this is coming from someone that can actually keep the car on the road.

By all means, you and your masses of people who are turned off by the TT, don't buy it. Your slow times & incomplete laps on the leaderboard wont be missed. Hopefully you guys will improve by the time GT6 releases.
 
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I question this statement.

Question funding development of Uncharted1,Uncharted2, and Killzone2. Versus using the Unreal Engine to make a game like Gears of War 2, Bioshock, Batman Arkham Asylum on the cheap without investing into new technology.
 
I question this statement.

Well if you're a gamer you know that. The market is plagued by rushed (a.k.a "gimme your greenies") titles. The few that appear to be a work of art, if you will, are strangely sony titles in their majority.
 
By all means, you and your masses of people who are turned off by the TT, don't buy it. Your slow times & incomplete laps on the leaderboard wont be missed. Hopefully you guys will improve by the time GT6 releases.

This statement makes me wonder if you try to deliberately offend or are ignorant of the spirit of GT. Or maybe both.

GT4 for instance has gone to incredible length to familiarise the player not only with the game, but the fundamentals of driving and racing as well. Just taking a brief glimpse of the previews and written instructions - that's incredible.

GT not only challenges but educates, and that's far more than any other game I played did.

I miss a bit of this education in the demo. There's no little fun challenge to get to terms with the car and/or the track.

And it's perceived by the media as being a "demo of the upcoming GT5". Of course you are free to write to 20 or 50 odd magazines and websites correcting their error. Just how many think will take notice of that?

Sony doesn't love GT nor Kazunori. As long as PD delivers and/or GT serves for demonstrating the power of the PS3 console, they will support the franchise. We live in times when even most successful developers get shut down if they don't fit in the portofolio anymore, if the genre is of little importance to the hardware plattform. PD is one of several studios, and if I look at franchises like Singstar, I wonder what the future holds.

PD always knew how to sell an experience, to make games with terrible depth and replay value. I'm asking myself what game I played all those years. Because it certainly doesn't sound anything like you played.
 
ItsHim I agree completely with every point.

Some people need to get that Sony will support anything that gives them a profit. Some executive does not care about physics or looks. He looks at a sheet of paper that has the investment in the game, the sales figures and the calculated profit. GT4 sold 10 million, of course Sony will support the franchise.
 
Please stop crying about sales, and the possibility of what the future can bring. Sony has already shown that its game development is a labor of love, versus the draw of the dollar, and just the dollar.

I hate to even comment on this, but socom is an example of sony's love for it's games. That game was rushed so bad that you literally couldn't play it on it's release day. You couldn't even log into it until the first patch got released. It came out last october and the game is just now playable and has all of the features that are listed on the box. The new socom is by far the worst released game in the history of gaming. On socom's blog before the game came out they announced there would be DLC every other month after it's release. Dec 17th of this year was the first DLC, that's over 1 year after the release of the game.

I use to feel the same way about sony until they took one of there most popular exclusives and did what they did to it. Other then socom though, they have had some top notch games in uncharted, MGS, and little big planet. Socom killed me though. I still can't believe that they made people pay for the DLC they just released. It has 5 maps(3 of which are maps from old socoms) and the game only released with 7. It was a year late to come out and they still want 14$ for it. Out of any game ever(including race pro) sony had the worst released game of all time. It was literally unplayable the day you bought it. 40$ to look at a screen that said unable to log in at this time. They definitely released that game for money alone. There was no love at all involved in the making of socom. They released it when they did just to catch the christmas cash.
And that's all I have to say about that.
 
Having spent 5 or so frustrating days slipping and sliding around the demo tracks in 2 different but equally hard to master cars, as impressed as I am by many under the bonnet elements of this demo I can't help feeling that this is a very poor marketing move to make this the first broadly available public demo of the game.

With the huge wait and enormous expectation for the game, first sight of it breaking cover was going to be so important for Polyphony & Sony to get strategically right. I think they've made a serious error of judgement.

GT brands itself as the real driving simulator and boy have they gone to town in proving this in the demo. The question is, do most people play with pro-physics - no, it may be real and all but for a great number of people - and GT needs to be a game that pitches itself to the wider masses rather than just a hardcore audience - it's bloody hard work and a pretty frustrating experience. Do race tuned cars slide about at 50mph coming out of a corner on racing tyres like bambi on ice ? They may well do but that reality does not pander to likely perceived expectation that they shouldn't.

A first playable demo should an inclusive thing - about fast, chuckable cars running high speed laps at 60fps on beautiful looking tracks designed to make people go wow. There's some hardcore wow for people admiring the complex physics, but come on, a single lowish speed, slippery car on a bland, non-descript track like Indianapolis. To do any justice to it you need a wheel peripheral which the majority of potential customers don't have. How inclusive and welcoming is that ?

Everyone on this site like myself will buy GT5 anyway, but what about the floating gamers who try out the demo to see it it draws them in. It's one of the least accessible and punishing game demos I have ever played, I think it will turn a lot of people off if they think that is symbolic of the games approach which is a shame.

Of course there is a time and a place for such demos as this one, I just think that time and place should have been later when at least most people would come to it knowing that GT5 will also be fun rather than the bone dry simulation replica that this demo suggests.

I think it was obvious where PD was targeting their audience...for the hardcore fans that love the "pro" physics of it. It's challenging, fun and always sex in my eyes now. There's alot of people out there that don't know about the GT5 Demo itself even when PSN says "try out the GT5 Demo Driving the ALL-NEW 370Z!!"....or something like that. To me, it was obvious that PD wanted to target the GT5 hardcore fans. I do agree that if they wanted to hit a broader audience, they would have just put in the same physics as GT3/4...but what's the fun it that when that person already has GT3/4? Overall, this is just a demo and a small touch, VERY small touch of the surface for the real GT5 game so I'm not mad...just impatient for GT5 release!!!!
 
I hate to even comment on this, but socom is an example of sony's love for it's games. That game was rushed so bad that you literally couldn't play it on it's release day. You couldn't even log into it until the first patch got released. It came out last october and the game is just now playable and has all of the features that are listed on the box. The new socom is by far the worst released game in the history of gaming. On socom's blog before the game came out they announced there would be DLC every other month after it's release. Dec 17th of this year was the first DLC, that's over 1 year after the release of the game.

I use to feel the same way about sony until they took one of there most popular exclusives and did what they did to it. Other then socom though, they have had some top notch games in uncharted, MGS, and little big planet. Socom killed me though. I still can't believe that they made people pay for the DLC they just released. It has 5 maps(3 of which are maps from old socoms) and the game only released with 7. It was a year late to come out and they still want 14$ for it. Out of any game ever(including race pro) sony had the worst released game of all time. It was literally unplayable the day you bought it. 40$ to look at a screen that said unable to log in at this time. They definitely released that game for money alone. There was no love at all involved in the making of socom. They released it when they did just to catch the christmas cash.
And that's all I have to say about that.

You shouldn't blame Sony for that.Sony actually delayed the released of Socom Confrontation for an entire year.It was suppose to come out in October of 07.But didn't come out until October of 08.Sony tried to give Slant Six time to fix the game,but they couldn't,even after numerous beta tests over a year and a half span.

I was a huge Socom fan,but i don't blame anyone except Slant Six for Confrontation's many issues.Sony gave them plenty of time to get the game ready for release.Slant Six are just not good developers on the PS3.They could have been given another two years to work on the game and it still would been a mess.Bring on Zipper's Socom !

As for the tread topic,GT5 will sell fine.Once it comes out,and those who struggled with GT TT start reading all the great reviews of GT5,and seeing the commercials on TV everyday.I believe most of those people will cave in and buy GT5 eventually,even if they didn't enjoy GT TT that much.And yes,im assuming GT5 will get great reviews based purely on their history.
 
I can't quite believe this thread. The poster knows nothing! They have a target audience, people who like sims, and they're catering to that. There are games that cater to "masses", Grid etc, they aren't as good at being a simulator. And there are assists for those who don't want a difficult game.

If you don't like this game, and it's too hard even with assists, stop playing it. It's not your kind of game at all. Don't insult the game, it's not the game's fault in any way.
 
This statement makes me wonder if you try to deliberately offend or are ignorant of the spirit of GT. Or maybe both.

GT4 for instance has gone to incredible length to familiarise the player not only with the game, but the fundamentals of driving and racing as well. Just taking a brief glimpse of the previews and written instructions - that's incredible....................

There hasn't been a Gran Turismo 5 demo made. Just a time trial, and a prologue. The prologue sold 4.5 million and had people complaining about the physics then. As far as a Franchise making money, its safe to say GT doesn't need to worry. As its sold more than Uncharted2 & Killzone2 combined.Yet, those games were made. KY himself said, his job isn't to sell the game. Its to make it. Lets just save this thread for when GT6 comes out, just as Uncharted 2 has come out, and Heavy Rains etc.

You can't compare a FULL GT4 to GT5p, GTHD, GTConcept, GTTime Trial. We haven't even had our hands on the damage demo, yet everyone seems to want to fall in love with the idea that the time trial is as good as GT5 is going to get? Please. You're playing a TIME TRIAL for a competition. They are expecting people that want to compete to know what a car is I'd imagine. People are being way too condemning of the Time Trial, even though it says "this is a demo of GT5" so does the Tokyo Track version, which no one has touched. Yet this is definitely the best foot PD has to show?

I enjoy the demo. Haven't been able to really concentrating on cracking my time down, but I'm at 1`39 for Tuned and 1`54 iirc for the Stock. Not the fastest person, but I see the mistakes im making, and they aren't due to me spinning out of control and flying into the stands. No, its because Im braking too soon/late. Things like that. At the same time, im seeing the lack of polish that was even in prologue, which clearly leads me to know that this isn't their full GT5, unless GT5 ships without cubemaps reflected in the vehicle for grass/track anymore, as well as shadows cast on the car from chickenwire fences(which is all present in prologue & the tokyo demo footage). Its 200mb, and hardly explores a demonstration of GT5's career mode/online/anything outside of the physics, which PD said it was for in the first place.

People need to wait to see a real demo, or at least the Tokyo demo in their hands before crying about the future of one of the larger Simulation franchises out. When the main people involved, the investors.. don't seem to be too worried. So much that they don't even release news about the game.

If you want to argue sales, Prologue has sold more than Forza3. I mean, GT makes sales. Not liking the physics is one thing, not liking the demo is one thing, But pretending GT isn't going to sell is asinine.

No offense intended to anyone, and happy holidays 4 all!


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SOCOM:

Yea, Socom. Socom is one of sony's best franchises, and Slant 6 ruined it while Zipper developed MAG. You can't really say that 1 socom, out weighs Uncharted1&2, Resistance 1&2, Heavenly Sword, Killzone2, MGS4, Motostorm 1 & 2, Little Big Planet, Gran Turismo, Wipeout-HD, other PSN Games like Flower, and Warhawk. Thats 1 to an entire 2 years worth of second to none quality titles. I think Socom's quality is a valid argument, but there are too many other franchises like MLB that have retained their quality. I bought Socom after the beta, and was devastated to find that the retail game was worse than the beta. The community stuck around though, and the game is at least playable now. But its definitely a blemish on Sony's record.
 
I went back to GT5P for a shot the other night on Standard physics as I used to always play it and it felt poor - I think after playing TT I will be using pro physics from now on.
 
I can't quite believe this thread. The poster knows nothing! They have a target audience, people who like sims, and they're catering to that. There are games that cater to "masses", Grid etc, they aren't as good at being a simulator. And there are assists for those who don't want a difficult game.

If you don't like this game, and it's too hard even with assists, stop playing it. It's not your kind of game at all. Don't insult the game, it's not the game's fault in any way.

Actually, I think GT has always catered to the masses. Its appeal to most is that its an accessible game that lets you drive both common cars and sports cars in a semi-realistic way. Opposed to racing games which focus on pure racing (GRID, NFS shift) or driving unrealistically (most other NFS titles, burnout, etc).
 
I found the cars in the demo easier to control than prologues tuned Elise or GT LM in TT spec. You just need to brake in time and be very patient on the throttle, most people including myself try to be on the edge of grip in the first few laps.


I'm pretty confident PD will release a PROPER GT5 demo that will be more friendly to the masses.
 
1. get better at driving.

2. There is standard physics in GT5

3. Don't floor the pedal and go full lock.

Only 3 sentences that say all...

This is a real challenge now !

I am not among the best drivers but what a feeling when I just drive a little bit faster the next lap...
 
i cant belive a thread like this actually exists, people, dont forget the full name of the game " Gran Turismo: The real driving simulator"

real driving simulator folks, as the hardware gets more powerful the simulation gets more real, don't chicken out now

realism was the whole reason you got into the GT series in the 1st place, if not it would simply be another need for speed series
 
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