Democrats' Health Care bill has been passed - SCOTUS ruling update

The Health Care bill.


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So...

How long will it take to reconcile this?

What more compromises will have to be made so both bills are equal? Could they just amend the bill later to add more stuff to it?

And I havn't been following it as I should...what's the provision for abortion and the public option in both bills?

When do you think this bill will be signed?

I have heard people say those who can't afford it will be FORCED to take coverage and if they don't they could be fined or worse?

What about these people in sound of protest that talk about "death panels" for those who say they will decide the fate for those who seem to be just a burden to the system, mainly the very sick and elderly who won't live much longer anyway?

And when do you think the actual national healthcare will be reality and not just paperwork?

And lastly...how much is this going to cost us in artificial money that doesn't really exist?
 
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And I havn't been following it as I should...what's the provision for abortion and the public option in both bills?
I'm pretty sure neither bill will fund abortions, but the house bill does have the public option.

When do you think this bill will be signed?
Supposedly tonight.

I have heard people say those who can't afford it will be FORCED to take coverage and if they don't they could be fined or worse?
Kind of a gray area. There will supposedly be tax breaks or something for the truly poor, but everyone will be forced to buy into it and they will be fined for noncompliance.

And lastly...how much is this going to cost us in artificial money that doesn't really exist?
Foolkiller has actually done the numbers, but the budget it 10 years long but will only support itself for around 8.
 
Thank you for the insight Toronado, but I meant when it's signed by Obama, that when the reconciliation is done. I am also wondering what you guys think will have to be reconciled, and what will be compromised...and if they could just amend it later.
 
I believe the abortion part will have to be reconciled, as well as the public option still existing in the house bill.

Whatever they pass could be amended later.

It could be quite an expensive show arriving at any final reconciliation, as our pols are going to want a pretty penny in order to compromise their "principles".
 
God, I'm just flabbergasted by this bill. What is that supposed to accomplish? FORCING you to buy health care, or you go to jail (and cost the state money). What the hell were they thinking?
 
What the hell were they thinking?

Virtually everything possible has gone wrong with our civilization. Elections stolen, 9/11, two insane wars with another looming in Iran, global financial crisis, failed institutions (marriage and family), epidemic of autism; you name it, everything is gone wrong. The easy answer is that aliens have dropped a stupid bomb on the human race. Alas, the truth is only as far away as the mirror. We have allowed ourselves, in the name of fear and security, to be maneuvered like sheep into helpless codependency with utterly corrupt and unscrupulous leadership in the fields of government and business. It is variously defined as oligarchy or fascism. They have been given the false stamp of legitimacy by media flacks and academic Pollyannas.

Freedom, self-respect and self-reliance, in fact all traditional virtues, once surrendered are virtually impossible to regain.

Merry Christmas,
Dotini
 
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How long will it take to reconcile this?

For what seems entirely feasible, at least February. At the earliest. Even then, I could see it getting pushed into the late spring if the Progressives want to put up a fight.

What more compromises will have to be made so both bills are equal? Could they just amend the bill later to add more stuff to it?

This depends on what version of the bill you want to talk about. As noted above, it depends on what the Progressives in the House want as well. It would seem more likely that the House will get its way in making the bill a few shades more Progressive than what has shown up from the rather Conservative Senate bill, but even then, its still up in the air. Obama is due to take a more personal role in aiding the drafting of the legislation, apparently. We'll see what that does.

NPR has a nifty graphic for the comparisons of the bill HERE.

And I havn't been following it as I should...what's the provision for abortion and the public option in both bills?

In the House version of the bill, a fairly weak Public Option is included that goes into effect in 2013. It would be government run, likely a mirror of Medicaide or Medicare for everyone else. The Senate bill doesn't have a Public Option, and instead introduces OPM-style plan exchanges that are supposed to get you cheaper premiums with the same levels of coverage. The Senate will also include some fairly strong subsidies for coverage as well, as I recall, keeping it open for people who make up to 400% over the poverty line ($88K as I recall). In terms of abortion rights, the House bill strongly prohibits the spending of Federal money on the operation, essentially making it so they cannot perform them as such with the Public Option. Provisions already exist that do not allow for the Feds to provide money for abortion, so that essentially became an erosion of Women's rights once again. The Senate plan does not include the abortion restrictions, instead sticking with what is already on the books. In both cases, people would have to spend private money on the operations, outside of their federally subsidized coverage.

When do you think this bill will be signed?

That depends on a wide variety of things. If it can go into conference committee, be sorted out easily and speedily, it would seem somewhat likely that the bill would pass fairly easily in the House and Senate. At the earliest, the end of February. However, a date in April or May seems far more likely.

I have heard people say those who can't afford it will be FORCED to take coverage and if they don't they could be fined or worse?

It sounds as though it is fairly unanimous that it is the case... From the NPR Page:

Individual Coverage

Senate Bill: Requires most people to have health insurance or pay a penalty, which starts at $95 in 2014 and reaches $750 two years later.

House Bill: Requires most people to get health insurance or pay a penalty of up to 2.5 percent of their income. This mandate (along with subsidies for the poor) extends coverage to 36 million Americans.

Employer Coverage

Senate Bill: Does not require employers to provide health insurance. The bill would charge companies with over 50 employees a penalty for any employee whose health insurance the government ends up subsidizing.

House Bill: Requires employers to contribute to health insurance for employees. But businesses with payrolls under $500,000 are exempt; that's about 86 percent of all American businesses.

I would care to suggest that a lot of the whining on both sides is a lot of political mubmo-jumbo, and without knowing what exactly the government will be offering (subsidies or Public Option), having requirements for coverage and complaining about the cost(s) aren't easy to do at the moment.

What about these people in sound of protest that talk about "death panels" for those who say they will decide the fate for those who seem to be just a burden to the system, mainly the very sick and elderly who won't live much longer anyway?

What about them? As a corporate-funded movement lead by talking heads and political opportunists with no real teeth behind their attacks, they don't have much of a voice in the current discussion. Generally speaking, if these healthcare provisions do "work" (and that is a blanket statement), the Republicans and the Tea Baggers are going to face a lot of issues later on down the line, politically speaking.

And when do you think the actual national healthcare will be reality and not just paperwork?

As I recall, the House version doesn't go into action until 2013. The Senate version even later, in 2014. Why? To save money.

And lastly...how much is this going to cost us in artificial money that doesn't really exist?

As I recall, the House version was something over $1.1 Trillion over 10 years with no solid figures on long-term cost savings. The Senate version carries a price tag of just under $900 Billion, but has a cost savings of $1.3 Trillion over 10 years.



In the end, I personally don't care much for the Senate version of the bill, but hope to see a lot of its more Conservative segments pushed in a more Progressive way to create a solid foundation for reform later on. Any way you look at it, generally speaking, this bill creates a lot of opportunity for a wide variety of changes in our healthcare in the coming decades. Depending on who is in power will likely determine the direction it takes. Without a Public Option, I do fear that the bill does not have the same level of bite to it as it does with these OPM-style exchanges... But as someone who is losing their health coverage right now, most of these seem as though they will be somewhat beneficial to me later on down the line.
 
Awesome insight YSSMAN major appreciation...but do these such death panels exist or something similar not as extreme? Sorry I don't keep up on this as much as I should...
 
Awesome insight YSSMAN major appreciation...but do these such death panels exist or something similar not as extreme? Sorry I don't keep up on this as much as I should...
There has been no discussion of death panels to any degree more than current private insurers could refuse coverage. I can see how people can see death panels occurring, considering government fails to dole out anything without having to eventually ration it, but as the current setup still requires you to pay for it out of pocket nothing will be able to occur any worse than does now.

Where the main debate came up is that Rahm Emanuel, Obama's Chief of Staff, has a brother, Ezekiel, that was appointed to a health advisor position. An exaggerated accusation came out in a newspaper editorial that he suggested Medicare patients face an inquiry every five years to determine if their value to society is worth it. Some opponents, including Sarah Palin, took this and combined it with end of life counseling parts of the House bill and came up with the Death Panel scare. That part of the bill is actually discussing therapy for people who are dying.

The truth is that Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel is opposed to euthanasia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel_J._Emanuel#Death_panels
 
Awesome insight YSSMAN major appreciation...but do these such death panels exist or something similar not as extreme? Sorry I don't keep up on this as much as I should...

Well, the whole idea of a "Death Panel" is pretty much a political untruth used to describe policies that were likely to be picked up in the legislation. Part of the current plan was to include a provision where older people who were a part of Medicare or the Public Option would be encouraged (and assisted by federal employees, apparently) to draft living wills and other "end of life decisions" that could speed along the process in someone's passing. Something old people should be doing in the first place. Hell, my nearly 50 year old father has some in place already. It saves time, stress and money.
 
You know what is awesome? Finding out that someone testifying in favor of the administration's health care plan, including some of the aspects even Democrats are opposed to, is being paid by the administration. More specifically, the department to gain a lot of power and money from a form of the proposed health care plans.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/08/economist-contract-health-department-touting-reform/

MIT economist Jonathan Gruber, one of the leading academic defenders of health care reform, is taking heat for failing to disclose consistently that he was under contract with the Department of Health and Human Services while he was touting the Democrats' health proposals in the media.

Gruber, according to federal government documents, is under a $297,600 contract until next month to provide "technical assistance" in evaluating health care reform proposals. He was under a $95,000 HHS contract before that.

But while he was being paid to provide his services to HHS, he was also fending off health care reform critics in the media. Gruber was one of the prominent analysts to rebut an insurance industry report from PricewaterhouseCoopers in October saying premiums would shoot up if a health care bill passes. And he has recently written columns defending specific provisions in the House and Senate bills, particularly the "Cadillac tax" on high-cost insurance plans.

The liberal base of the Democratic Party is widely opposed to that tax, out of fear that it will cut into union benefits -- which may explain why the first criticism of Gruber came out of liberal blogs.

"I have never seen it disclosed that he was a paid consultant to the Obama administration," a blogger for Firedoglake wrote Friday morning. "For months I have been angry with Gruber because I thought he was simply an exaggerator whose dangerous love of the spotlight was hurting the efforts of progressives to make sure the Senate bill adopted more progressive cost control solutions. ... Now it is clear something much more sinister was at play."

The Daily Kos declared that, given Gruber's contract, the "fix was in" for the Cadillac plan.

Gruber, when contacted by Fox News, acknowledged that he has a contract with HHS, but he said it has nothing to do with his public advocacy.

"NONE of the work I have done in public, or any public declarations I (have) made, has been in any way funded by the administration," he wrote in an e-mail. "That funding was strictly for internal work that I did for the administration and, via the administration, for Congress. All externally visible work and comments, such as my editorials or public reports, have been done on my own time."

Gruber said he "firmly" believes in the positions he advocates, and he said he has not been secretive about his contract with HHS. "I have told reporters whenever they asked," he said.

He noted that he disclosed his relationship with the Obama administration in a Dec. 24 column for The New England Journal of Medicine. Indeed, the "disclosures" link at the bottom of that article online takes the reader to a form showing Gruber is a "paid consultant to the Obama administration."

But a column in The Washington Post on the Cadillac tax just a few days later did not disclose his relationship with the administration. Gruber was listed merely as a "professor of economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology."

Government documents explaining the terms of his contract say that he was "uniquely positioned" for providing analysis for the health department's assistant secretary for planning and evaluation, describing him as a "recognized expert in health policy in economics."

Now, he claims these are his opinions regardless of who pays his salary. OK, fine. But when this administration, and others that support the bill, accuse fellow politicians whom oppose the bill, such as Senator Lieberman, of taking contributions from the health insurance industry they should make sure the guy testifying for them isn't someone on their own payroll. Because when that news comes out I have a sudden reflex action to call the president a lying hypocrite.

I wonder what other interesting hypocritical secrets are known inside the broken promises known as closed door meetings.
 
In Ireland, are healthcare system isn't that great. Have you seen our Minister for Health? Go on, type "Current Irish Minister for Health" into Google Image Search.

But enough of that. Some countries have perfected universal healthcare. Look at France, Japan and Canada. Yes, income tax is high in those countries. Well, except Canada where average Joe who's earning...let's say US$25,000. He's paying 15% tax. In Japan it ranges from 5% to 40%. In France you can pay as much as 50% tax. An average Joe earning US$25,000 in America pays 15%. In Ireland the minimum tax rate, even if you're earning €1,000 per year, is 21%. Why? To pay for healthcare. Before you whine about tax rates in America, think...what if I were living in France?
 
Before you whine about tax rates in America, think...what if I were living in France?
I would move to America.


But of course, the proposed health care plan isn't about raising everyone's taxes to give them all health care that they don't have to worry about, so your comparisons are irrelevant. I can talk about nationalized health care lacking competition driven innovation in that thread, but that isn't what the US is trying to pass, so it is not what we are discussing here.

The US is trying to pass a plan that will force everyone to buy insurance. The system will just be changed slightly and then every single American will be required by law to buy insurance. It is unprecedented and no one has given me a justifiable answer as to why our government now thinks they can force people to buy a good or service against their will.
 
You have to buy car insurance in some states. I assume they're using that as an excuse, even though they don't understand that the point behind that is to force you to be able to assume liability for your actions if you wreck someone else. Health insurance is to allow you to pay to keep yourself healthy...correct me if I'm wrong, but how does this affect others? Why should you assume liability for your actions upon yourself...other than to remain healthy?
 
You have to buy car insurance in some states.
Only if you own a car that is registered and licensed. No car? No insurance. Undriveable car in the garage that you use for parts? No insurance. Even then it is purely a minimum liability if you choose to own and operate a vehicle. You are not forced no matter what.

I assume they're using that as an excuse, even though they don't understand that the point behind that is to force you to be able to assume liability for your actions if you wreck someone else. Health insurance is to allow you to pay to keep yourself healthy...correct me if I'm wrong, but how does this affect others? Why should you assume liability for your actions upon yourself...other than to remain healthy?
Congress says they can by invoking the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution, which is intended to allow regulation to prevent unbalanced commerce between the states. But it has never been used to force someone to buy anything, ever. Basically, they are saying that it is the only way this works. There will be a court challenge to that if it passes.
 
If this nationalized healthcare is so good, as Obama himself has been preaching for the last year, why isn't Obama nor any of his fellow cabinet members going to use it???

To put it plane and simple, it's because it flat out sucks.
 
If this nationalized healthcare is so good, as Obama himself has been preaching for the last year, why isn't Obama nor any of his fellow cabinet members going to use it???
Because they can afford their own private insurance schemes. Hell, they can afford the cost of regular medical procedures without insurance.

To put it plane and simple, it's because it flat out sucks.
Plain and simple. For a native English speaker, you need to improve it.
 
Because they can afford their own private insurance schemes.

So can I, but Obama insists this new healthcare bill is better for all of America. (that is if you count Obama as a non-American)

Haven't you heard the stories from Canada and the UK about how bad there nationalized healthcare is?, And don't tell me ours will be any different, it won't.
 
So can I, but Obama insists this new healthcare bill is better for all of America. (that is if you count Obama as a non-American)

Haven't you heard the stories from Canada and the UK about how bad there nationalized healthcare is?, And don't tell me ours will be any different, it won't.
The currently proposed plan will be different because it is far from a National Healthcare system.

It will look a lot like what Massachusetts has.
 
The currently proposed plan will be different because it is far from a National Healthcare system. [/URL]

It is a national healthcare system, that's why it's called "Nationalized Healthcare". It will give the government 1/6 more control over the economy.

And it's not free either. And I'm not saying our current healthcare system is good, but the one congress is offering is worse anyway.
 
So can I, but Obama insists this new healthcare bill is better for all of America. (that is if you count Obama as a non-American)

Haven't you heard the stories from Canada and the UK about how bad there nationalized healthcare is?, And don't tell me ours will be any different, it won't.

FYI, it isn't. Can't speak for the UK, but Canada's isn't bad. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's far from bad.
 
It is a national healthcare system, that's why it's called "Nationalized Healthcare". It will give the government 1/6 more control over the economy.
No, it makes you give more money to the current insurance companies. This is not remotely like what Canada and the UK have.

I am not supporting the proposed plan. I am saying it is even worse than an NHS system.
 
No, it makes you give more money to the current insurance companies. This is not remotely like what Canada and the UK have.

I am not supporting the proposed plan. I am saying it is even worse than an NHS system.

What do you mean? If nationalized healthcare passes, all the insurance companies will go bust, and the government becomes our insurance. Which, in the form of tax dollars, I will be paying barrel loads of money too.

FYI, it isn't. Can't speak for the UK, but Canada's isn't bad. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's far from bad.

It's bad because the government decides weather you get treatment or not, depending on the case. One of the stories, from Canada, was that a man needed a hype replacement. The government didn't see this as a major concern and decided to make him wait 3 years before he good get his hype replacement. 3 years of agonizing hype pain was to much for him, so he crossed the border to get treatment from the US instead. And he got his hype replaced in 2 days under the US healthcare system.

How do I double quote, without double posting?
 
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What do you mean? If nationalized healthcare passes, all the insurance companies will go bust, and the government becomes our insurance. Which, in the form of tax dollars, I will be paying barrel loads of money too.
Have you read either bill? They are reforming insurance and mandating you buy it. The House bill allows you to also choose from a government run Public Option, the Senate bill allows you to chose from a co-op, which is run by the insurance companies.

This is not a government takeover (although it will lead to that over time). This is something much worse.

If you need to read the bills I have links to them earlier in this thread. You don't even have to leave this thread to find out what I am talking about. I suggest you give it a quick read-through.

At a minimum, quit believing what conservative commentators say this is without looking into it yourself.

How do I double quote, without double posting?

Click the speech bubbles next to the quote button to quote multiple posts.
 
Mitt didn't even need to become President to get Romneycare rammed down our throats. I swear to god he's going to run for President again and say that this was all his idea.
 
It's bad because the government decides weather you get treatment or not, depending on the case. One of the stories, from Canada, was that a man needed a hype replacement. The government didn't see this as a major concern and decided to make him wait 3 years before he good get his hype replacement. 3 years of agonizing hype pain was to much for him, so he crossed the border to get treatment from the US instead. And he got his hype replaced in 2 days under the US healthcare system.

How do I double quote, without double posting?

Weather? Like the government decides if it's going to rain, snow or be sunny?

Hype? Like "Holy moly dude! GT5 is going to be the best thing since Jesus branded sliced bread!"

Whatever the case, I think a lot of those stories are made up or have drastically altered facts in them. Got a source on that story by the way?
 
So can I, but Obama insists this new healthcare bill is better for all of America.

Point of reference: While I can afford to buy basic medical insurance that will get me "affordable" visits to my doctor, they do little in the way of providing actual care if anything goes wrong. Simply put, at the rate that I am sick, having a $5000+ deductible is not worth it. At my current rate of income, paying greater than $100 a month is ridiculous, and even then, it does not guarantee the coverage I would need or want if something went wrong.

You've also got to separate between which healthcare bill you are talking about. The Senate version, to which Foolkiller has pointed out, requires you to buy private insurance (albeit with Federal subsidies), which is arguably just as bad. If Aetna wasn't giving me good coverage before, why would I want to be giving them more of my money anyway? The House bill includes a a Federal Public Option which is closer to the NHS-style plans that you are apparently afraid of. Under that plan, people would be able to access government run healthplans that would essentially be no different than the Medicare/Medicaid that is already offered to millions of Americans. Of the two, it would be my preferred way of solving the healthcare issue, but the Australians still have the best option available.

Haven't you heard the stories from Canada and the UK about how bad there nationalized healthcare is?, And don't tell me ours will be any different, it won't.

What about them? People cite these "horror stories" all the time, but generally speaking they are half-truths or rare occurrences. In fact, we had a whole thread about it: Hey World, Tell Us About Your Healthcare. Each system has its benefits and its disadvantages, I wouldn't lie about that, but compared to the system that we have now in the United States, we have a lot of work to do in order to make it anywhere near acceptable.

Sam48
What do you mean? If nationalized healthcare passes, all the insurance companies will go bust, and the government becomes our insurance. Which, in the form of tax dollars, I will be paying barrel loads of money too.

Problem: We're already paying boatloads of money for crappy health insurance plans. My favorite Australian plan levies a small tax across the board (2-3%) to give everyone free basic healthcare which can be supplanted by federally subsidized private plans (which would add things like dental, eyecare, and so on). Its an easy alternative to what we have here, but no one wants to talk about it.
 
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