Diamondback project isn't dead.

[super cirrus]

That'll never happen for under $100,000 though, the Viper is priced more premium than the Vette reegardless ofwhich is better, Vipers arn't as cheap.

I think it could it DC goes through with the Chrysler firepower. It'll take a little of the production cost load off of the viper. Also, getting an extra 50-75 hp shouldnt be too hard either. The only thing I can't see doing easily is the expensive materials needed for the weight loss.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I was just going to mention the Firepower!

If we want a DCX sports-car at Corvette prices, it would be the one to do it. But chances are, the car will be too "soft" compared to the Corvette.

 

[Onikaze]

I haven't heard a word suggesting the Firepower has a chance.

A Chrysler Barracuda seems more likely to me.

 

[YSSMAN]

It's been prettey quiet when it comes to the Firepower over the past few months, and I'm quite surprised they aren't going to make it. Maybe Chrysler learned their lesson with the Crossfire, and maybe they didn't. Who knows? Maybe Chrysler will get smart and just build a two-door 300C?!?!

 

[McLaren]

I believe the Firepower is still in testing phases while Chrysler's supercar ME412, remains in the "under Active Consideration."

 

[harrytuttle]

But with the problems the GT has had, I don't know if Ford is looking to build a supercar again for a while. Granted, a 600 BHP GT500KR seems possible, the dissapointing performance of the regular model leaves me saying, "Why?"

---

Maybe that is why so many analists are upset at what Ford is doing. They continue to dance around so many options that would seem so obvious to GM and DCX, but they just cannot make up their minds about anything. I really do not know why Ford isn't investing heavily in RWD sedans and coupes, and continuing to look for another halo car to replace the GT.

From what I can tell, ALL the American car companies are flustered and confused. They had the same problem the last time there was an oil crisis. Ford is constantly looking through its back catalog of great cars and doing a half-thought-out rehash of whatever comes up first, and then not even improving on a [re]design that had a lot of room for improvement. And why wasn't the new Focus introduced in the US? Surely in a market soon to be dominated by Toyota & Honda, moving forward in the small car segment would be kind of appropriate right now.

Chrysler is busy making 20 different cars, all based on the same 1999 Mercedes E-Class, and then replaces the spectacularly-selling and ever-improving Neon with...a small SUV? Love the SRT lineup, but is that really the way of the future?

GM is spread so thin that it's only a matter of time before the failings it's having with the Saab replicate themselves elsewhere. The push for Europe is well-intentioned, but wouldn't it be easier to go Ford's more laissez-faire route? It worked wonders for Volvo & Mazda. Let's also not forget GM's head-in-the-sand approach to fuel costs. Isn't GM the biggest manufacturer or trucks & SUVs?


As for problems with the Ford GT, the only one that seems to hit the trade rags is "Why are they ending production?" The catastrophically failing suspension made news, but it didn't last. People were having too much fun embarassing Ferrari owners.

 

[YSSMAN]

^Well, someone is upset at the American automakers...

I'd say of all the American automakers, GM has the most sense about it, dropping it's rather stupid ties with Suzuki and Isuzu like hot irons, and models are going to start dissapearing starting this year.

As for DCX, they have their wits about them as well. They seem to have figured out what people wanted (cars that LOOK American), but unfortunately they still aren't up to the quality levels that are in the Fords and GM's from the other side of Detroit.

Ford on the other hand is going willy-nilly. There isn't any solid design direction with any of their cars. The Focus needs an update, so does the Ranger, etc. Ford is relying on truck sales more than any other American automaker, so don't make GM the bad guy in this situation either...

 

[Tornado]

So, you think back in the '90s a C4 Vette had a chance against the RT/10?

A ZR-1 or Grand Sport, yes. C4 Vette's outhandled pretty much whatever they wanted, because they had noreal suspension to speak of, and tires wider than those on a steam roller. If the track was bumpy, like the 'Ring or something, then no way in hell. If it was a smooth track I would say they would be quite close.

Let's not forget the Viper also had history before its life time considering it was derived from Carroll Shelby's 427 (which came from the AC right?). The GTS is a fine sports car, by all means. It's proved its worth in racing, as well being the 1st American cars to finish GTS Class in LeMans 2000, the 1st in 30 years, not to mention the 1st ever production–based American car to grace the winner's circle. The cars also have 5 FIA GT Titles under their belts, from 1997 to 2002, 5 years in a row.

The Viper's development had nothing to do with the 427. At all. It was simply designed to fill the same niche. Yes, it can be said that it parallels it quite conveniently, but that's it. All Caroll Shelby really did was some consulting stuff. He didn't touch the engine (Lamborghini did that), chassis (which was done in house) or drivetrain (which was either farmed out or done in house).

Now, the Corvette has history and is a fine sports car, but to deny the Viper of the same class is just awfully strange. The SRT-10 Coupe performs just as good as the Z06, and is proven it is a major competitor in the racing world in just 10 years of existance.

But the problem is, though, that Dodge had grown far to complacent with the Viper. The change from RT/10 to SRT/10 alone says that. The "let's add cubic inches and ignore the rest of the car" philosophy is what has made it second fiddle to the Z06. And the SRT10-Coupe has no racing credentials. The GTS did. The Viper GTS and Viper RT/10 were more or less to different cars. The SRT/10 and SRT/10 Coupe are not, and I beleive that GTS>SRT/10 Coupe. The simple thing is that the Corvette is a faster car at the limit because of Dodge's complacency, and the last thing the car needs it more power. It needs suspension tuning and a general retouching of the car in general, because it hasn't really changed that much at all since 1990. When you factor in how much less the Z06 costs, it's a no brainer, because no matter how much money you throw at it, throwing that money at the Z06 will make it faster.
I will admit though, that most of this problem stems form the fact that Dodge left FIA GT when Chevrolet started.

 

[McLaren]

Well, the SRT-10 Coupe isn't racing because that's what the Competition Coupe is for.
I never really compared the SRT-10s to the GTS, either.

And despite that, Dodge has never really left the series. That or Chevrolet isn't in anymore. Their cars were ran by private teams, and for now, only 1 C6R runs in the series with the Dodge private teams out for now. Chrysler was never run out of the FIA either, and Chevrolet will have a lot of catching up to do with 2 wins, the 1st overall 2005 comparing the Vipers staggering 23 wins, 1st overall in 1999, placing it 1 win ahead of the 550 Maranellos.
The C5Rs joined in '98, and with the original Vipers in '96.

 

[YSSMAN]

Team Corvette is more concerned about racing in the US to promote their base cars, thus they have focused their attention on the ALMS racing series, not FIA GT racing. Quite frankly, it's a smarter move on their behlaf. Not only are they saving money, but what they do in ALMS has a greater effect in the US compared to what would be happening in FIA GT. Not to say that American's don't care about FIA GT racing (LeMans is still popular), but ALMS and SCCA racing (of which Chevrolet and Cadillac both have factory-backed cars in) is the better way to go, as it reaches an American audience.

 

[Onikaze]

Didn't the Vettes win GT1 at Le Mans last week?

Or did I misread something?

 

[McLaren]

Team Corvette is more concerned about racing in the US to promote their base cars, thus they have focused their attention on the ALMS racing series, not FIA GT racing. Quite frankly, it's a smarter move on their behlaf. Not only are they saving money, but what they do in ALMS has a greater effect in the US compared to what would be happening in FIA GT. Not to say that American's don't care about FIA GT racing (LeMans is still popular), but ALMS and SCCA racing (of which Chevrolet and Cadillac both have factory-backed cars in) is the better way to go, as it reaches an American audience.

True, but I don't see why they can't back a team in Europe. Perhaps it would make it seem worth the price to actually buy one there?

I just hear that American cars like the Vette there are very expensive. Surely a rich European seeing a Vette take down the Ferraris and Maseratis could change the view that American cars aren't reliable, and are worth their price.

But I guess I digress.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm not completely certain on GM's reasons why not to invest in FIA GT racing, but everything seems to be working out allright by running primarily in the US' ALMS class.

But apprently the C6-R was the favorite at LeMans with the French folk, and yes it did win it's class after Aston had to drop out due to mechanical problems (I belive Prodrive had a 2-lap lead on Team Corvette by the last few hours of the race...).

 

[Elegy]

It was only a 1-lap lead. Also, the Aston only got by the #64 Corvette because the pit crew had trouble getting the right front tire on.

For the record, I think the average difference in lap times between a Z06 and an SRT-10 Coupe is slightly over 1 second. So whoever's been saying it's not that bad is sorta right. In a full-out race, that's kinda bad, but these are street sports cars, so I don't think Dodge has too terribly much to be ashamed about.

I love the Corvette, but I also still love the Viper, and although I also think that only a few minor changes to the SRT-10 Coupe would make it the Z06's equal or superior (better rubber, a bit less weight, that sort of thing), I look forward to the results of this new Diamondback project. 👍

EDIT: Almost forgot: Neither of the Prodrive Aston Martins dropped out of the race. They both finished.

 

[YSSMAN]

When Car and Driver tested the two on the local racetrack (Grattan Raceway) I belive the difference was right around a second, but given the track's 2.0 mile layout, that is a long time there.

But also given Grattan's technical layout, it would come down to the driver as well, given the Vettes quirky suspension setup. If you aren't expecting that in the Vette, much less know how to get out of it, Grattan is the wrong kind of track to have that kind of setup with.

...But yes, I would agree that the Viper should be pretty easy to fix up to outrun the Vette. A few minor adjustments, and the race should be down to fractions of a second, if even that...

 

[Elegy]

I do feel compelled to mention that I don't have as much faith in C&D's Z06 review as I do in their other reviews. The problems they complain about (twitchy handling and such) aren't vouched for to the same degree by about 99% of the guys I've met at Corvette Forums who actually own and drive the cars.

The word I always get from owners is that there is a very slight twitch, but it is extremely easy to negate.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, I would say part of the problem is the track at which they tested the two cars at. Although by most standards it is not a technical course, it is tricky because of it's uneven surfacing, blind corners, etc.

Both CAMAROBOY69 and myself have done quite a few laps of the track, and it certainly is a special track when it comes to testing the suspension of the given car. Could that be the reason why GM uses it so often as a test track?

 

[Elegy]

That's a pretty good point. I'd imagine that they might've gotten the same results if they'd tried testing it at, say, the pre-repaving Mid-Ohio.

 

[Poverty]

I do feel compelled to mention that I don't have as much faith in C&D's Z06 review as I do in their other reviews. The problems they complain about (twitchy handling and such) aren't vouched for to the same degree by about 99% of the guys I've met at Corvette Forums who actually own and drive the cars.

Yeah but those guys will turn a blind eye to any Z06 inequalities, like when a member has a rant about his Z06 being a lemon quite a few tools come in and flame him

 

[Jim Prower]

oh, great. here comes the Viper haters....

Hey, this is great news! 650HP launches this car into the stratospheric realm of performance. People have to remember that these cars are done Mopar-style. We're not so much about light weight and handling, (no that we can't do that.) as RAW POWER.

The ZO6 is a great car...but it's still a Corvette. Everyone has a Corvette. Not everyone has a Viper. Besides, the ZO6 has lost it's nasty edge, (as in, it's more driveable than the last) the Viper hasn't. Didn't people critisize the 996 for losing it's nasty side?

 

[Onikaze]

I think people criticized mid 90's Porsche's for losing the nasty "I'm gonna kill you when you screw up" side.

The 996 wasn't the start.

 

[YSSMAN]

oh, great. here comes the Viper haters....

Hey, this is great news! 650HP launches this car into the stratospheric realm of performance. People have to remember that these cars are done Mopar-style. We're not so much about light weight and handling, (no that we can't do that.) as RAW POWER.

The ZO6 is a great car...but it's still a Corvette. Everyone has a Corvette. Not everyone has a Viper. Besides, the ZO6 has lost it's nasty edge, (as in, it's more driveable than the last) the Viper hasn't. Didn't people critisize the 996 for losing it's nasty side?

Yes, that is true, for the most part. But keep in mind, Mopar isn't too famous for quality either. Atleast with a Corvette you could use it as a daily driver (depending on where you live) and still get respectable fuel mileage. Added to that, it has an interior I'd want to sit in, and while in there, I'm not cooked in the process.

...Granted, I'm picky. But, thats because I'm a Corvette and 911 guy when it comes to sports cars. When you're spoiled, you're spoiled!

BTW: Up here in Michigan, Corvettes are quite common, but so are Vipers as well. There are plenty of GTS' up here, and I saw my first SRT-10 coupe about a week after the magazines had their tests. Granted, you're more likely to see a Corvette in most circumstances, but the Vipers are here as well.

 

[Tornado]

The ZO6 is a great car...but it's still a Corvette. Everyone has a Corvette. Not everyone has a Viper. Besides, the ZO6 has lost it's nasty edge, (as in, it's more driveable than the last) the Viper hasn't. Didn't people critisize the 996 for losing it's nasty side?

But everywhere I've read has said that the new Z06 is more raw than the old one.
And people critisized the 996 because it had a water cooled engine. People critisized the 964 because it had become too soft.

 

[Elegy]

Yeah but those guys will turn a blind eye to any Z06 inequalities, like when a member has a rant about his Z06 being a lemon quite a few tools come in and flame him

But many of them actually own and drive the cars. When a mag reports something that owners aren't encountering for the most part, I don't hold that review as highly as normal.

 

[harrytuttle]

^Well, someone is upset at the American automakers...

A little. I'm not thrilled with any manufacturers, actually. They never asked me how I think they should be run...

As for DCX, they have their wits about them as well. They seem to have figured out what people wanted (cars that LOOK American), but unfortunately they still aren't up to the quality levels that are in the Fords and GM's from the other side of Detroit.

Ford on the other hand is going willy-nilly. There isn't any solid design direction with any of their cars. The Focus needs an update, so does the Ranger, etc. Ford is relying on truck sales more than any other American automaker, so don't make GM the bad guy in this situation either...

DCX seems to be in a merger in more ways than one. Chrysler quality seemed to be on the rise while Mercedes went down. I kept wondering when they'd meet in the middle and one would just...disappear.

The Focus has had an update, but no one outside of Europe is allowed to have it. I know it's a serious top-selling in Europe, but it's hardly a dead fish in the US. New models of already-successful lines usually do similar numbers, if not better (see: Honda, Toyota). Why not increase the volume of cars sold to decrease the cost of production? Then again, since they didn't ask me way back when....

Ford is relying on truck & SUV sales just as much as any other US manufacturer, but GM has a strong marketing SUVmovement, more so than the other two. But don't get me started on why or what any of these guys really care about us or the world. I'll get all flustered and mad, and end up needing my medicine again.

 

[Dave A]

The Focus has had an update, but no one outside of Europe is allowed to have it. I know it's a serious top-selling in Europe, but it's hardly a dead fish in the US.

I thought the Focus had a bad rep in the US because of build quality or something.

 

[YSSMAN]

Early Foci (thats plural for Focus, right?) had some build quality issues (strangely, so did your Mondeo/Contour... Crappy European cars! lol). Current models sell pretty well on high MPG, lower emissions, extremely low price, and high fun-to-drive factors. But all of that together does not hide the fact that the car is old, very old, dating back to the last century in design.

 

[Tornado]

In all honesty, the only reason the Focus sells in the U.S. is the same reason the Neon did: It's cheap, frugal and fun. But the problem is that it does very little for Ford on the bottom line to sell the car as most do (rental cars and stripper models). The European Focus makes Ford far more money, because every one they sell isn't a base, fully optionless model.

 

[JCE]

I thought the Focus had a bad rep in the US because of build quality or something.

2000 Models and any model made from Mexico. Mine was made in Mexico and I've had several problems with it. I'm glad I have a 100,000mi 7yr extra warranty. It's saved me over $1000 in repairs so far.

 

[YSSMAN]

Not everything that is built in Mexico is utter crap, as my Volkswagen has held up well enough. But I'd say the German-built models hold up a bit better, but that is only my observation...