Did I cause this crash?

Here is the race view of the crash. Also I made it so you could see the steering/braking inputs of me and the Lexus driver.
 
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His crappy internet connection is probably what makes him look so erratic. Still his fault though, especially when he comes right across the track without actually clearing you. The whole thing just looks desperate imo.
 
I quite often like to play devil's advocate with these things but in absolutely no way shape or form is that anyone's fault other than the guy in the Lexus. He should never have attempted a pass there as it was never going to work out.
It seems very few people playing this game have any knowledge of racecraft. I don't mean etiquette, though that also is lacking, I mean the art of racing. You cannot just attempt to pass another car, even if you are clearly much faster than it. You have to wait for the correct opportunity to make a clean pass without risking taking yourself or the other guy off. There is a serious problem with the mentality of most people playing this game.
This is not restricted to lower SR rankings I'm S ranked and have lost count of the amount of places I've made up purely from sitting back and watching as other people take each other off. Even though I am faster than them in a lot of places I will not attempt to pass at a point where I know I cannot. People don't know when to lift off and wait for the correct opportunity.
The 'gamer' mentality of "I must win" is ruining the online races in a big way at the moment. There needs to be better education on racecraft in this game, not just two crappy etiquette videos.
 
stevenhiggster
I quite often like to play devil's advocate with these things but in absolutely no way shape or form is that anyone's fault other than the guy in the Lexus. He should never have attempted a pass there as it was never going to work out.
It seems very few people playing this game have any knowledge of racecraft. I don't mean etiquette, though that also is lacking, I mean the art of racing. You cannot just attempt to pass another car, even if you are clearly much faster than it. You have to wait for the correct opportunity to make a clean pass without risking taking yourself or the other guy off. There is a serious problem with the mentality of most people playing this game.
This is not restricted to lower SR rankings I'm S ranked and have lost count of the amount of places I've made up purely from sitting back and watching as other people take each other off. Even though I am faster than them in a lot of places I will not attempt to pass at a point where I know I cannot. People don't know when to lift off and wait for the correct opportunity.
The 'gamer' mentality of "I must win" is ruining the online races in a big way at the moment. There needs to be better education on racecraft in this game, not just two crappy etiquette videos.
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Real world F1 examples include Lance Stroll (no spacial awareness whatsoever it seems) and Daniel Kvyat (no sense of when/how to attempt a pass). Plenty of speed, etiquette and ability, but still sorely lacking as a complete driver.
 
the Lexus clearly didn't leave you enough space on the left and rail roaded you into the wall. If this were a real race he would have killed you there. his complaint now is the equivalent of yelling at your corpse.
 
Gonna get flamed here, But OP is at fault starting from the straight the Lexus is far and away the much faster car and is closing the gap rapidly (Look at wing mirror) OP Overcooked it and ran wide only to hit the barrier and send Mr Lexus spinning.
 
ghostrider135
Gonna get flamed here, But OP is at fault starting from the straight the Lexus is far and away the much faster car and is closing the gap rapidly (Look at wing mirror) OP Overcooked it and ran wide only to hit the barrier and send Mr Lexus spinning.
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Yes, I 'flame' you.
So you're one of these guys thinking higher speed gives you any right ?
 
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ghostrider135
Gonna get flamed here, But OP is at fault starting from the straight the Lexus is far and away the much faster car and is closing the gap rapidly (Look at wing mirror) OP Overcooked it and ran wide only to hit the barrier and send Mr Lexus spinning.
Click to expand...

The Lexus knocked him into the barrier. When a wall is present you're only allowed to edge the driver a car widths to the edge, you can't guide people into walls like you're playing light cycles in Tron.
 
ghostrider135
Gonna get flamed here, But OP is at fault starting from the straight the Lexus is far and away the much faster car and is closing the gap rapidly (Look at wing mirror) OP Overcooked it and ran wide only to hit the barrier and send Mr Lexus spinning.
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Absolutely nope.
It matters not a jot if the Lexus was clearly the faster car, he has no right to the position based purely on that. He could not possibly have completed that pass there without contact. As the lead car the OP has the right to be where ever the hell he wants as long as he isn't driving like a tool, which he was not. The Lexus was driving like a tool and is completely to blame
 
ghostrider135
But OP is at fault
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Uh-huh. Not by the video in the first post from the Lexus's angle he's not.



We'd need to see the Lexus driver's replay though.
ghostrider135
starting from the straight the Lexus is far and away the much faster car and is closing the gap rapidly (Look at wing mirror)
Click to expand...
He's certainly got some overspeed, although that's not relevant to anything.

He then completely misses the kink under the bridge and takes himself onto the grass. At that point he's out of play: he's off-track and that means he cannot gain an advantage. While off the track he passes the other BMW, then scythes back onto the track and hits the front end of the other BMW, keeping his second place that he shouldn't have.
ghostrider135
OP Overcooked it and ran wide
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At which point during the five seconds he was on the brakes in a straight line until he was hit from the side was the BMW overcooking anything? That's as smooth a line through that complex as is possible to take.
ghostrider135
only to hit the barrier
Click to expand...
The first contact was the Lexus, which didn't hit the brakes until a second and a half after the BMW only to then back off the brakes again, coming from the right and hitting the BMW side-to-side on the right side, sending it into the barrier on the left.

The rebound from that sent the still-braking BMW to the right, as the Lexus came back left again. As the Lexus wasn't braking, he was now a little further in front and instead of a side-to-side impact, it was front-corner to rear-corner, sending the Lexus into a spin.

Not that the spin mattered. He wouldn't have made the corner as he wasn't braking in time. And he shouldn't have been in second to cause the crash because he passed off track.

Unless his own replay shows something wildly different, the Lexus was all over the place and absolutely at fault for everything shown in just this clip. Had he been a bit more grown up, he'd have a second place.
 
Famine
Uh-huh. Not by the video in the first post from the Lexus's angle he's not.



Unless his own replay shows something wildly different, the Lexus was all over the place and absolutely at fault for everything shown in just this clip. Had he been a bit more grown up, he'd have a second place.
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Snip..

The best thing would be for OP to message said Mr Lexus and try to get a replay from him because as it stands right now we are only really seeing it from one persons POV, For all we know on Mr Lexus' screen OP could have been jumping all over the place, But we don't currently have the pleasure of knowing if this is true or not.
 
ghostrider135
Snip..

The best thing would be for OP to message said Mr Lexus and try to get a replay from him because as it stands right now we are only really seeing it from one persons POV, For all we know on Mr Lexus' screen OP could have been jumping all over the place, But we don't currently have the pleasure of knowing if this is true or not.
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You can see the steering and brake inputs on the screen above the rev bar with both cars in posts #31. you may have to view the video in the highest quality
 
ghostrider135
Gonna get flamed here, But OP is at fault starting from the straight the Lexus is far and away the much faster car and is closing the gap rapidly (Look at wing mirror) OP Overcooked it and ran wide only to hit the barrier and send Mr Lexus spinning.
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I don't think you are watching the same video as the rest of us.
 
ghostrider135
Snip..

The best thing would be for OP to message said Mr Lexus and try to get a replay from him because as it stands right now we are only really seeing it from one persons POV, For all we know on Mr Lexus' screen OP could have been jumping all over the place, But we don't currently have the pleasure of knowing if this is true or not.
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I really don't think we need to see his replay tbh. This is as clean cut as it could ever be. He was never going to make that pass, ever. He also was never going to make that corner, had OP not been there he was going straight into the barrier anyway.
 
stevenhiggster
I really don't think we need to see his replay tbh. This is as clean cut as it could ever be. He was never going to make that pass, ever. He also was never going to make that corner, had OP not been there he was going straight into the barrier anyway.
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Exactly. At no point in that video would i feel confident in saying that the Lexus guy ever had any control over his car. While it might not meet the exact criteria for a divebomb, he was divebombing the whole course.
 
I wish there was a setting to severely slow off track cars to keep junk like this from happening. He was out or control Imo.
 
Completely the gray car's fault. Does he expect cars to brake for him and or dissappear completely? He should have been spun out when he darted across 3rd place. Tool bag.
 
ASH32
Yes even when people are not using the grass to overtake, they are coming back on to the track like missiles after going off, sometimes at really sharp angles expecting people to just move out of their way.
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It really pisses me off because I do the opposite and have had to go from 5th to last because I wait till it is safe to come back on track, only to later have some ahole barrel into me after sliding off course.
 
TNR_KING_FILO
Completely the gray car's fault. Does he expect cars to brake for him and or dissappear completely? He should have been spun out when he darted across 3rd place. Tool bag.
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That Lexus established his stupidity when he split those two cars for a pass and went 3 wide on the Ring.
 
I feel the need to come back in order to make things more clear and also make some people understand my point of view.
This is Nordschleife.Irl drivers break hard in order to make those last turns.In sim racing usually people trail-break (not so hard) until the last part of those corners-track.Some aliens abuse the curbs and just lift-off like its a straight and not corners until they make it to the last two.
There is no room (or no way) to make it 2 wide there.So before entering that corner (I mean the first one where the Lexus force OP wide -i've wrote that so many times-) drivers need to either concider their position (when they are side by side) or go to "no mans land" and have an accident.
Lexus or OP were not willing to do that (or understand that).How do I know this?Because neither does it and there is actually time to do it (before that corner).
Lexus is in the outside,carring more speed,1/4 ahead so he thinks he has the right to go first.
OP has the inside line (imo the correct line or the racing line if you like) and does not want to give position because of that,even when the Lexus 1/4 in front and pretty much looks like he is not going to back off.
They both forced the issue.
Lexus had more speed and went "ahead".OP had less speed (maybe 1/4 car lenght behind or so) and did not want to give his position.
That was always gonna cause a collision.First the Lexus push OP wide,then OP cannot avoid hitting Lexus no matter what.
So both are forcing it there and in doing so,both have their share of resposibility for what happens.If OP or Lexus wanted to make it clean there should have gave each othen enough room.Problem here is that there is no way to do that -in those corners-in that part of Green Hell.
I really dont care if Lexus drives like an idiot or not.The fact remain the same:when I see an "idiot" trying to make a stupid move there and in fact understand what he is doing,sometimes I have to "give" a position to make it clean in/out a corner.Not for him but for me.
I am not going to make him a better driver but if I can avoid the contact that is coming,I would.
If both drivers think that the other one is going to lift off and give position,they also have to concider the posibility of that not happening.
If they think that can somehow make it (in a clean manner) together they should actually do that.If they dont then they both were wrong.
This is a result of lack of awereness (from both imo) and respect (from the Lexus driver).
 
JulesDennis
I feel the need to come back in order to make things more clear and also make some people understand my point of view.
This is Nordschleife.Irl drivers break hard in order to make those last turns.In sim racing usually people trail-break (not so hard) until the last part of those corners-track.Some aliens abuse the curbs and just lift-off like its a straight and not corners until they make it to the last two.
There is no room (or no way) to make it 2 wide there.So before entering that corner (I mean the first one where the Lexus force OP wide -i've wrote that so many times-) drivers need to either concider their position (when they are side by side) or go to "no mans land" and have an accident.
Lexus or OP were not willing to do that (or understand that).How do I know this?Because neither does it and there is actually time to do it (before that corner).
Lexus is in the outside,carring more speed,1/4 ahead so he thinks he has the right to go first.
OP has the inside line (imo the correct line or the racing line if you like) and does not want to give position because of that,even when the Lexus 1/4 in front and pretty much looks like he is not going to back off.
They both forced the issue.
Lexus had more speed and went "ahead".OP had less speed (maybe 1/4 car lenght behind or so) and did not want to give his position.
That was always gonna cause a collision.First the Lexus push OP wide,then OP cannot avoid hitting Lexus no matter what.
So both are forcing it there and in doing so,both have their share of resposibility for what happens.If OP or Lexus wanted to make it clean there should have gave each othen enough room.Problem here is that there is no way to do that -in those corners-in that part of Green Hell.
I really dont care if Lexus drives like an idiot or not.The fact remain the same:when I see an "idiot" trying to make a stupid move there and in fact understand what he is doing,sometimes I have to "give" a position to make it clean in/out a corner.Not for him but for me.
I am not going to make him a better driver but if I can avoid the contact that is coming,I would.
If both drivers think that the other one is going to lift off and give position,they also have to concider the posibility of that not happening.
If they think that can somehow make it (in a clean manner) together they should actually do that.If they dont then they both were wrong.
This is a result of lack of awereness (from both imo) and respect (from the Lexus driver).
Click to expand...

@Famine already asked you but you ignored so I ask again.

What could the OP do more? He was full to the left and full on brakes. Tell us all what would you do and how would you "give" your position (pretending the OP has or wants to give his position to the Lexus). Brake the space-time continuum and reappear 2 sec later?
 
This is getting bizarre now. If anything, the OP should be commended for his good driving under duress. I'm pretty confident the answer would be a resounding YES if the Lexus driver had been the one to open the thread asking "Did I cause this crash?"
 
zzz_pt
@Famine already asked you but you ignored so I ask again.

What could the OP do more? He was full to the left and full on brakes. Tell us all what would you do and how would you "give" your position (pretending the OP has or wants to give his position to the Lexus). Brake the space-time continuum and reappear 2 sec later?
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Op knows that Lexus has more speed and is actually going ahead of him (10 mm? it does not matter) before that corner,way before actually.He has to break hard and avoid this situation or try to make it with the Lexus (something that is never going to happen 99 times out of 100).
Op is breaking too late there and actually try to keep his position/line.Or should I say he drives in a normal/correct manner like there is no Lexus car.That is my point.There is a Lexus there and he is actually trying to make a pass.
You see that guy (he has more speed) way before you pass the point of "no return".You either break early or just go to no man's land hoping he backs off..
 
JulesDennis
I feel the need to come back in order to make things more clear and also make some people understand my point of view.
This is Nordschleife.Irl drivers break hard in order to make those last turns.In sim racing usually people trail-break (not so hard) until the last part of those corners-track.Some aliens abuse the curbs and just lift-off like its a straight and not corners until they make it to the last two.
There is no room (or no way) to make it 2 wide there.So before entering that corner (I mean the first one where the Lexus force OP wide -i've wrote that so many times-) drivers need to either concider their position (when they are side by side) or go to "no mans land" and have an accident.
Lexus or OP were not willing to do that (or understand that).How do I know this?Because neither does it and there is actually time to do it (before that corner).
Lexus is in the outside,carring more speed,1/4 ahead so he thinks he has the right to go first.
OP has the inside line (imo the correct line or the racing line if you like) and does not want to give position because of that,even when the Lexus 1/4 in front and pretty much looks like he is not going to back off.
They both forced the issue.
Lexus had more speed and went "ahead".OP had less speed (maybe 1/4 car lenght behind or so) and did not want to give his position.
That was always gonna cause a collision.First the Lexus push OP wide,then OP cannot avoid hitting Lexus no matter what.
So both are forcing it there and in doing so,both have their share of resposibility for what happens.If OP or Lexus wanted to make it clean there should have gave each othen enough room.Problem here is that there is no way to do that -in those corners-in that part of Green Hell.
I really dont care if Lexus drives like an idiot or not.The fact remain the same:when I see an "idiot" trying to make a stupid move there and in fact understand what he is doing,sometimes I have to "give" a position to make it clean in/out a corner.Not for him but for me.
I am not going to make him a better driver but if I can avoid the contact that is coming,I would.
If both drivers think that the other one is going to lift off and give position,they also have to concider the posibility of that not happening.
If they think that can somehow make it (in a clean manner) together they should actually do that.If they dont then they both were wrong.
This is a result of lack of awereness (from both imo) and respect (from the Lexus driver).
Click to expand...

You make a lot of assumptions there about what both drivers were thinking. In my humble opinion it looks entirely like the Lexus was doing no thinking whatsoever other than "must win, must win..." he was driving like an absolute muppet long before they got to that corner and it's an absolute miracle he didn't completely wipeout the other guy when he swerved back onto the track. The OP could in no way possibly know what to expect or make any attempt to avoid that muppet. The Lexus is entirely in the wrong and I shall hear no more arguments otherwise! :P
 
[QUOTE="Famine, post: 12059462, member: 9036"We'd need to see the Lexus driver's replay though.[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't it be easier for the OP to use the same video but from the Lexus's POV? Just switch the target car, and it's done, right??? Or am I thinking wrong?

Cheers
 

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