Discussion: Why Mac?

[Public'sTwin]

Here goes. . .

I've used Macs before. I've used OS X. I remember when there was real distinction between Macs and PCs - but now they're all just computers.

But what I don't understand is why, now, people will spend $2800 on a computer, which a $1200 PC will do just as well (and play more games on, at that.) I just don't understand.

Can someone help? What, specifically, is a Mac doing that pcs aren't that is so attractive to a typical consumer? It can't come solely down it currently being a trendy fashion item. There's gotta be some kind of, "Oh! I haven't seen that before! Oh, Windows doesn't do this!" factor.\

Since this is also a manufacturer issue, which makers are comparable? Sony? Toshiba? MSI? Acer? Asus? I realise many of them use shared components—just as Macs use Intel components—so I need a reference point on their reliability and construction, as well. Are they just as prone to malfunction as the typical craptop, which averages about a 29% failure/return rate?

How's their customer service?

How're their warranties? Anything that can help make this clear to me.

(I encourage fierce debate, because I really do need to see all the sides of this thing.)

 

[Sage]

Well, sounds like you might be talking about having certain needs – I can justify my $900 MacBook quite easily, but I wouldn’t even begin to tackle justifying a $2800 AnythingComputer. What are you actually looking for? (BTW, strange as this might sound to some, I’ve actually recommend PCs to some people.)

 

[Public'sTwin]

Well, sounds like you might be talking about having certain needs – I can justify my $900 MacBook quite easily, but I wouldn’t even begin to tackle justifying a $2800 AnythingComputer. What are you actually looking for? (BTW, strange as this might sound to some, I’ve actually recommend PCs to some people.)

The question is primarily out of curiosity, as my friend just maxed out her credit card on a new Macbook Pro, and I'm trying to understand why. Not just why in general, but why as a comparison to PCs.

Although I am in the market for a netbook, this thread wasn't related to intensely personal interests. To answer your question, I intend to find something smallish, portable, and compatible with everything I already have (which, incidentally, are PCs); something I can tote around with me, get jacked on coffee with, and get some work done while I'm on the go. Or perhaps upload photos while I'm in the field. Whatever. (PM me or visit this thread if you want to continue!)

 

[Jondot]

But what I don't understand is why, now, people will spend $2800 on a computer, which a $1200 PC will do just as well (and play more games on, at that.) I just don't understand.

For me it's mostly because I'd have thrown the $1200 Windows Laptop off the roof by this point in time, so the act of purchasing another one pretty much brings the cost level to the same point.

The point behind which is that it would have done something to irritate me by now. I have a modestly equipped desktop with Windows 7 on it (which incidentally was made by Foxconn, the lot that make the iPhone), and I can cope with that. If it goes wrong, I'll open it up, have a poke around and in theory fix it myself. Which is fine - I don't rely on it to do anything other than play DVDs and function as a DVR, so if it decided to die tomorrow my productivity would actually go up.

That reaches the limits of what I trust a PC to do, basically. Which is fine - I prefer to think of it as an Alfa Romeo. It'll let me have fun occasionally, but as soon as I want to actually use it for work it'll break down and make me late.

I know someone will counteract me with 'oh but my PC is very reliable blahblahblah', but I don't really care. Every PC I've owned has died/become unusable within about 18 months of just sitting on a desk not moving, so either I'm doing something fundamentally abusive or they hate me. Oh and apparently they hate my mother too, as her 12 month old Samsung now takes 10 minutes from switch-on to actually being able to do anything, and that's been given such a gentle and luxurious life that it probably thinks it's on holiday.

 

[Sniffs]

in other words, Public's Twin, MACs are Japanese automotive products, PC's are American ones.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Well you could use OSX86.. but i'm not sure if its legit...or legal (is it legal?).

 

[Ibonibo]

On PT questions:
For me there are several reasons why people are crazy about apple:
- It's IN in the moment, just like Ed hardy was for their time being. Apples are design-ish, and that is what people like. (This is the main reason for me, like everybody got an iphone, so in order to fit in you need to buy one also... peer pressure haha)
- It's simple to use for a everyone (from the soccer mom to a manager)
- It's rumored to be saver and more stable

And now the negatives or why apple sucks:
- Because it is simple it doesn't future some of advanced settings (that the common user might not need, but not everybody is in the definition of common by Steve)
- The rumored saver ad more stable is simply explained by the market sharethat is still quiet little, so hackers have no real interest in hacking those . And they are as easily crackable as a PC.iphone is so easily crackable. Give me your number and i lock it for you.lol
- Steve Jobs is a s*cker (sticker??) : he wants to regulate everything on his platform. It's very closed. So this infriges in the US the liberty of speech. Exemple : The biggest german newscorp. has a contract with apple for an app to publish newspaper. The content needs to be approved by apple, meaning no titties (Bildgirl), maybe some article won't be published. This is the biggest fault i see in apple. I'm not a 14 year old boy who needs to be taken by the hand of Steve Jobs. I decide what i read, and look at or what programs i use.
- The fanbase of apple is soooo stupid. Waiting in the cold during hours to get an overpriced gadget on release and pay a huge amount of cash for it.
- The tech inside is old crap and overpriced to the moon. They use very cheap componants (foxconn!) and some outdated tech and still ask a price if you would have the newest tech inside (ipads cpu is the old gen of netbook processors, their are newer one much more powerful.) This for me is the second big NO.
- They constantly overhyping their products : Iphone display better than human retina. Oxymoron, why create a display that would be better than the human eye, the human eye would not benefit from the surplus of the display. And it's out now that it was clearly a lie. And all their products are market like that. ipad is the best blablabla give me money blablabal
Did someone see the simpsons spoof of apple : " I make this iphones for 50, sell them for 500 and pee on everyone of them" Hillarious

@jondot: I know someone will counteract me with 'oh but my PC is very reliable blahblahblah', but I don't really care... FANBOY?????
i could try to argument but i doubt it will help.
I use all my Pc's for 5 years and after i give them to friends and family and they still use them for 2 years. Meaning a 2000€ Pc will last at least 7 years with the right maintainance.
common fault : putting a pc on the ground (worse on a carpet) so they can s*ck in all the dust, and then never dust them off. This will kill all Pc's after 2 years.

laptops is a different business because you could not choose what is inside, but there are some real good one out there but not for 300€.

PT: the best little laptop out there is either a vaio (high quality) or the little alienware mx11 (700dollars)

But laptops are very restrictive when it comes to upgrades, (need to be arware of that). my bro's vaio was upgraded by me with win7 and it had a lot of drivers problems, it took sony 6 months to get them all out, but the laptop was also a bit old.

Sniffs :
in other words, Public's Twin, MACs are Japanese automotive products, PC's are American ones.
mac = tesla : wanna be "in" (eco), but with all the batteries their "in" (eco) is "out" (not eco)

Now Apples fanboys, come raining down on me

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

MAC = Honda
Its quite simple. If you want an excellent, worry free, stress free computer experience buy a mac. The 1% of things it can't do compared to windows, your very unlikely to be doing. You'll pay a small premium, but they last, giving overall better value in most cases.

Linux = any kit car, ussually made up of recycled but well tested parts.
If you want cheap and flexible buy linux. It can be run on any old pc, quite stable and customisable.

Windows PC = Chevrolet / Vauxhall / KIA
Little bit more than a kit car, designed purely with sales in mind, no real build quality, prone to needing replacing after a couple of years.


As for all the above nonsense of S3 racer, of course people will buy Apple products for the cool factor, people also buy handbags for the cool factor, doesn't really make it any better or worse a handbag. Apple computers would sell even if they were ugly, people stick with them for good reason.

Second, regarding Apple being all evil and Steve wanting to control the world. Load of rubbish. Did you know that to upgrade OSX to the new version, you don't need a serial key. In other words you in theory could borrow your mates disc. No activation crap, no stupid serial numbers, keys etc.

It is true that Apple don't always using the bleeding edge processors in mobile units, and its for good reason. Apple actually test thier units before they mass produce them. As stated by S3 racer, Sony released a laptop with driver issues, that just shows how good their quality control is.

 

[Jondot]

@jondot: I know someone will counteract me with 'oh but my PC is very reliable blahblahblah', but I don't really care... FANBOY?????

Uh... not really. Sorry, "NOT REALLY?????????"

More a case of me not really caring how well your individual PC is running because I'm not the one who's bloody using it.

I literally cannot be bothered to reply to the rest of this post as various bits are just trollish, but I've had negative experiences with Windows and as a result prefer not to use it. If there's anything fanboy-ish about that, then I dread to think what I'm supposed to label you as.

 

[Ibonibo]

...people also buy handbags for the cool factor, doesn't really make it any better or worse a handbag...
but you pay for the cool factor, and as you said it does not make them better.
So you pay more just for the name??

jandot : I've had negative experiences with Windows...

As i said apple is simpler. And that's a good thing for some. But not for all. I never had problems with Windows. Even Vista was not the devil it was drawn. 90% of IT faults come down to the user

And don't get me all wrong, Apple does also some cool stuff:
I considered buying an iphone (i haven't)
They attract people to IT who would not have touched it before
They push technology that was not succesful before
(tablet pc exist since the personal computer but was never commercially succesful, until now, so thanks apple for that. but would i buy an ipad? that's down to personal decision, so no for me, but other like it that's fine.)

And my above post are my 2 cents, i know that 10 min after i would get flamed for it and will get further, but 2/3 is factual and can be google by everyone. For me the bads are more than the goods, so yeah i don't want apple. but i don't condamn people using it, as long as they don't think that apple is the best, because it clearly isn't.

 

[Jondot]

So you pay more just for the name??

Uh... no, I pay for the computer attached to the name. If they called it the Nick Griffin 3000 I imagine I'd still buy it, provided it still came with iChat and didn't shout racist slurs at passers by.

but i don't condamn people using it, as long as they don't think that apple is the best, because it clearly isn't.

Why not? Why aren't people allowed their own opinions? Why must they only share yours?

I think the Ford Mondeo is the best family car. May not necessarily be the case when you consider every single factor, but why aren't I allowed to have that opinion?

 

[F1GTR]

Today, the real differences between Macs and PCs are the fit and finish. People are willing to pay extra for the glass screen, unibody chassis, magsafe connectors and other little details that many PCs overlook. From a price/performance ratio, Macs are far from the best choice, but you won't see the same level of refinement from them.

 

[Jondot]

People are willing to pay extra for the glass screen

I paid extra not to have the glass screen on mine

 

[Public'sTwin]

Honestly people, I'm not looking for analogies. I know windows inside and out. I've customized my registry to provide previously unavailable options when right-clicking, etc.

There has to be some kind of solid, demonstratable, empirically better benefit to owning a Mac, surely?

And Jon, you are suuuuch a faaaanboyyyyy

I'm not seeing a distinct difference between the availability of programs (actually fewer available for Mac. . .), or their ease of use. I know lots of people prefer to use Adobe products on Mac, but that seems to be it.

Furthermore, isn't it now possible to just install Mac on a PC? If so, why doesn't everyone just do that?

 

[Sprite]

For me the choice is simple, I make music and as many musicians will tell you they use Mac platform because it's just downright more stable and the choice of audio software is a little bit better. But I also have another reason, at university I had a windows machine running Win 2000 SP4 and for three years it was ok but buggy, unstable and I was always at the mercy of a BSOD, come to my final year and the sucker died and nearly took all my work with it, if it wasn't for the IT department I would have lost three years worth of hard work (I also take part blame for not backing it up), over a 7 year period I had two PC's both of which constantly had problems since getting my iMac and my parents getting their MacBook we have had no issues at all, they might be more expensive but for me they are the way to go if you want hasstle free computer usage.

Now for the disclaimer: I know Macs are prone to the same hardware failure as PC's so I soely base my opinions on my own experience.

 

[Jondot]

There has to be some kind of solid, demonstratable, empirically better benefit to owning a Mac, surely?

For me it's the fact that I don't want to drive over it with my car.

Or that desire is considerably weaker at the very least.

And Jon, you are suuuuch a faaaanboyyyyy

Shudduuuuuuuup!

I'm not seeing a distinct difference between the availability of programs (actually fewer available for Mac. . .), or their ease of use. I know lots of people prefer to use Adobe products on Mac, but that seems to be it.

Well (and this all comes down to personal preference), but there are different programs available. Keynote, for example, which is basically Powerpoint but doesn't feel like you're working from inside a filing cabinet. Same goes for iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, all that.

Furthermore, isn't it now possible to just install Mac on a PC? If so, why doesn't everyone just do that?

Sort of, but it's not the easiest of things to do. It's a case of tricking the thing into working, I believe.

Anyway, to attempt to answer your question... when mine went in to be repaired/have its screws stolen, I was surviving off my Windows 7 desktop. And I managed just fine, basically, but d'you know what I missed? Taking cropped screenshots with just a key combination. And having to use Office instead of iWork. That was pretty much it. Oh, until I wanted to edit something and tried using Live Movie Maker - that was a hideous experience. And before then when it disappeared off for something else and I had to use a Vista laptop, I missed the fact that mine didn't weigh 2 tonnes. That's pretty much all I can think of.

At the end of the day, it's a preference thing. Some people like Mercedes, some like BMW. It's still a 'want' factor unless you need it for Logic or Final Cut or something.

 

[mbavaria30s]

For me the choice is simple, I make music and as many musicians will tell you they use Mac platform because it's just downright more stable and the choice of audio software is a little bit better. .

This is not really true anymore, in my experience. It used to be, but the advantage has really disappeared in terms of software/hardware availability and usability. For reference, I've used everything from Impulse Tracker/Schism Tracker (amiga mod-style program) to Cubase/Reason/Ableton Live!/Vocaloid through rewire.

The main issue with name-brand system builders (Dell, etc) is that they load up their Windows systems with so much crap that from day 1 there is a drain on system resources that degrades over time. Any system I've built for myself or anyone else, who has also bothered to listen to my advice on what to click or not click, has had little issue. Even a name-brand system that gets wiped and a fresh, clean install of whatever version of Windows will run well.

Another main issue is the hardware providers. A lot of hardware has been driven to cheaper and cheaper components, which has led to a decrease in Mean-Time Before Failure (MTBF) across the board, even if slightly. Mostly, though, it's in the form of Dead On Arrival parts or parts that can't survive burn-in. Once a system is built and properly burned in, it usually lasts quite long. The only issues I've had with my own systems have been due to parts reaching the end of their lifespan, which has only happened once or twice in the past 5 years.

Really though, as long as a system is properly set up and burned in before delivery to the customer, it is typically rock solid... the only real issues are usually user-induced, although there should be more protection from this in Windows.

I'll leave linux out for now, since I doubt it's applicable (though I run it on my main system and laptop, and Solaris unix on my file/web server )

I have less experience with Macs, but I've always enjoyed OSX. Usually don't have to do anything too weird with them, and they have good driver support as the hardware is known, in my experience. The applications available are usually of high quality and they have some great implementations, too.

Personally, I've seen that part of the appeal of Macs is the perceived quality. Not saying they AREN'T quality, but the real importance to customers is that they think it's quality, without usually being able to effectively evaluate it themselves. Sure, some of it will be appliance level consumerism, "this is a cool thing, so I must have it. PC users are such plebians." But I don't think that's as prevalent as it seems.

Build quality of Apple's seem good, though I've known some techs that did warranty repairs on their laptops and /hated/ getting to everything. That's neither here nor their, though ;p The design is clean, they have unique designs like the Mac-in-a-Monitor which is important for a cool factor or a space-saving factor, or even an aesthetic factor.

I really just think it comes down to what you are familiar with, what you can afford, and what's important to you. In the end, much like a car, you have to drive it before you can form a great opinion, and also make sure it is able to meet your needs.

BTW, Macs have Marathon, which is a fantastic old-school FPS. I loved the heck out of that game.

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

There isn't a single distinct major reason why OSX is better than Windows if and only if you know how to treat windows well, especially since windows vista/7 took a lot of 'ideas' from OSX.

Its all the little things that make the difference.

Build quality.
Driver quality due to testing.
No stupid startup procedures to worry about.
No messy registry and 'program files' folder to be concerned about.
Practically no spyware, adware, or viruses.
No processing power wasted on security software.
Consistantly good performance, doesn't really slow down after months of use.
A great online community.
Regular OSX updates that actually enhance performance.
Bigger support from developers to use the latest OSX features, and implement the likes of 64 bit versions because they know it will be well implemented in osx itself.
Firmware updates from Apple themselves for all components, since they build the machines, they know exactly if the firmware update will be an improvement, and test it before it gets to you.

oh, and it just works.

 

[mbavaria30s]

Driver quality due to testing.

Due to end-to-end control of hardware. Definitely a plus

No stupid startup procedures to worry about.

What do you mean?

No messy registry and 'program files' folder to be concerned about.

Registry is questionable, sure, but what's to be concerned about program files? It's just a default location for installing things.

No processing power wasted on security software.
You don't need to run security software

The largest attack vector is web-based, and that can inflict problems with Macs or Windows. Mac OSX has always fallen through a safari-based attack vector at the Pwn2Own competition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn2Own

Of course, Apple always patches the exploits timely. MS has a worse track-record for timely patching.

Consistantly good performance, doesn't really slow down after months of use.

Superfetch on XP was horrible and contributed to this greatly. Another issue was incorrectly designed uninstallers that would leave remnants of their program around. Another set of slow downs is constantly loading "resident" software. I abhor this practice. Though, really, that can be present on any OS.

Firmware updates from Apple themselves for all components, since they build the machines, they know exactly if the firmware update will be an improvement, and test it before it gets to you.

Seems an odd statement, since Apple is akin to Dell in terms of the hardware, and Dell provides the firmware updates and so on for their systems, too, for windows.

Anyways, they are all good systems with their own ups and downs. For my money, if I was buying another laptop, I'd buy either a Thinkpad or a Macbook Pro. Both very very good and should last a while. Still have a working 486DX Thinkpad, and my current one has lasted 3 years absolutely rock solid.

 

[Sprite]

@ mbavaria30s

You forget though that Mac have an industry leading DAW Logic Pro, which allot of studios use, plus the stability issues come to play again, my basic iMac can handle 40+ track arrangement with instruments from inside Logic and re-wired out to other software without breaking a sweat and no outside help from any external or specialist hardware. For me this is a very cost effective way of saving space and working. Plus then working on a track on an iMac then I can pick up working on it on a MacBook pro without a hitch and all updates I make on either system is translated over to the other.

 

[Grand Prix]

Probably the best reason for owning a Mac.


I was originally just going to say that I use my Mac for work related stuff, but then I imagined all the PC fanboys screaming in agony at the thought of it, so I didn't.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Furthermore, isn't it now possible to just install Mac on a PC? If so, why doesn't everyone just do that?

It is, its called OSX86 or Hackintosh BUT ITS ILLEGAL.

 

[Jondot]

It is, its called OSX86 or Hackintosh BUT ITS ILLEGAL.

THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT.

And yes it is technically illegal as Apple have outlawed installing the OS on non-Apple produced machines in the software agreement. So even if you've gone and bought the copy of OS X, as far as Apple are concerned you're bypassing a sort of copy protection and are therefore breaking the law.

I wouldn't be expecting the FBI to break down the door and confiscate your OSX'd Dell Inspiron, though.

 

[mbavaria30s]

@ mbavaria30s

You forget though that Mac have an industry leading DAW Logic Pro, which allot of studios use, plus the stability issues come to play again, my basic iMac can handle 40+ track arrangement with instruments from inside Logic and re-wired out to other software without breaking a sweat and no outside help from any external or specialist hardware. For me this is a very cost effective way of saving space and working. Plus then working on a track on an iMac then I can pick up working on it on a MacBook pro without a hitch and all updates I make on either system is translated over to the other.

Very true! Mac is still a very very strong platform for that, with very good software and integration. No denying that at all. I intended to say that Windows isn't the crap pile it used to be for digital audio stuff. 👍

 

[Public'sTwin]

THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT.

And yes it is technically illegal as Apple have outlawed installing the OS on non-Apple produced machines in the software agreement. So even if you've gone and bought the copy of OS X, as far as Apple are concerned you're bypassing a sort of copy protection and are therefore breaking the law.

I wouldn't be expecting the FBI to break down the door and confiscate your OSX'd Dell Inspiron, though.

You have to be kidding me. There's no official allowance for installing on third-party hardware?

 

[Tornado]

No. Apple have also sued companies that have attempted to sell Hackintoshes in the past.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Also Hackintosh isnt fuly compatible with all computers. Like my Compaq SR1110NX (ACPI error) or my other Celeron PC which fried due to it.

 

[Crash]

You have to be kidding me. There's no official allowance for installing on third-party hardware?

Not officially. Apple used to license System 7 to run on third party hardware, but has stopped since Steve Job's return.

 

[Rykon Zero]

Why a Mac? I've only seen two reasons to get a Mac:

1. You like the media software that they can get.

2. You don't like the way a PC works.

If I'm not mistaken, the latest Windows OSs, while Vista was slow, it was at the very least reliable. Windows 7 should be a similar story, without the slow part. There's the whole thing about viruses on PCs, but it's easy to protect yourself, even if you want to go for free programs.

 

[Dazzla]

I have a Mac, and I'll be replacing it with a PC in the next few months.

Pros:
- No viruses, no problems
- OS is beautiful and so is the computer

Cons:
- Bit pricey in terms of hardware for dollar spent
- Couple of things on it that you can't do

For me the one thing thats kind of annoying about the Mac is that it just seems kinda basic to use. I use mine for absolutely basic stuff, word processing, photo management, and browsing. So for me I think spending extra on owning a Mac doesn't make sense. I just wish there was a better selection in 13-inch PC laptops.