Do GT7 cars and tracks really take that long to make?

[TheGhostOf94]

Idk if my input will help, but I will start by saying this.

I have experience with modeling, texturing, rigging, Etc and it can be VERY time consuming, especially if you want to do things right.

Making sure all of the surfaces of your work are neatly made up of 3&4 sided polygons.

Making sure your texture maps are setup properly.

If you don't, then your work will have issues, especially when exporting to other programs for rendering etc.

I would rather them take the time necessary in order to provide the resulting vehicles we have now, which are just STUNNING, to see keeping in mind this is a cross platform title.

I understand the frustration, but in this day and age, we have a lot of other racing games to help make up for what we believe others are lacking.

 

[JDMKING13]

In my opinion PD track environment are one of the best in the business… I mean the tracks look amazing… depending on the time, and weather it gives the tracks a different vibe. Also PD model the people to actually move and walk around the track, that alone in my opinions gives PD the edge on track environments! Watching replays and seeing the angles of cars and people moving within the track event is beautiful.

 

[05XR8]

Time out. I’m pretty sure there are fireworks exploding in the sky, in game, when I complete a race. Much more than this.

 

[XSquareStickIt]

in terms of track modelling and detail, PD do a very good job.

Do you mind elaborating on this point a bit more for me? I don't spend much time playing other racing titles, but the tracks in GT7 have always felt way too smooth and lacking in texture for me. The only place I could feel some bumps were on la Sarthe, the Nordschleife, and Bathurst.

In fact, many of the comments on this video leading up to GT7's release are critiquing how Willow Springs in the game look too "clean".



If the tracks in the game are indeed laser scanned, it seems to me that there are a lot of detail and texture left out of the virtual renditions. Surely that saves PD some time in bringing them into the game? I have no way of supporting my claim, I'm just speculating.

 

[Dave A]

Do you mind elaborating on this point a bit more for me? I don't spend much time playing other racing titles, but the tracks in GT7 have always felt way too smooth and lacking in texture for me. The only place I could feel some bumps were on la Sarthe, the Nordschleife, and Bathurst.

In fact, many of the comments on this video leading up to GT7's release are critiquing how Willow Springs in the game look too "clean".



If the tracks in the game are indeed laser scanned, it seems to me that there are a lot of detail and texture left out of the virtual renditions. Surely that saves PD some time in bringing them into the game? I have no way of supporting my claim, I'm just speculating.

As in the track modelling is good, there are several reasons you'll feel fewer bumps in a game than IRL even if the bumps are there in the game. IRL race tracks are very smooth relative to temporary circuits that use public roads or sections of public road. Therefore, those tracks will always feel much bumpier, i.e. Le Sarthe and Nordschleife.

A common reason why racing tracks feel so smooth in games is refresh rate. If you have a game with a physics engine that refreshed 100 times per second for example, and you have a car travelling at 100KPH, that car is covering 1.666KM per minute which is 27.76 meters per second.

So with a refresh rate of 100Hz you would likely not feel any bumps that are less than 1/10th of that in size, which would be 27.76cm in diameter, unless the engine freshed at the precise moment you impacted it.

I've used that refresh rate and speed to make it a simple calcualtion, but in that example anything smaller than that would likely be missed by the games physics engine as even if the detail is there, the engine simply cannot refresh fast enough for the game to register it all. For the record, GT7's physics refresh at 120Hz.

Given how smooth racing circuits are in comparison to public roads, the majority of bumps drivers experience in real racing cars are so small they don't tend to register in many games and offten the bump effect is fudged into games that feature it (though not always). Racing cars in real life react so much to these tiny bumps and fluctuations in a racing circuits surface for the simple fact that they are set up so damn stiff as well, so in games where you are using road cars you have to take that into consideration as well.

This isn't an explanation for how every game handles this, refresh rates are increasing with computing power as is the level of detail per inch of a track model, so it's getting there. But in general, racing tracks in games have a tendancy to feel far smoother than IRL.

 

[GTEnthusiast9]

Laugh at my post all you want but you're just wrong, What @hyperspeed980 says below:

is correct, for some weird reason you think streets of Hawaii are a kin to a race track... almost as if you've never been to a race track...

Which games are you referring to here? you mean Grid Legends with constant fireworks that are completely unrealistic?

Yeah when driving a car on a racetrack you get that from driving the car, not looking at people in the stands and fireworks going off... again I don't think you know what you're talking about and you're not comparing apples to apples

I'm laughing because you're comically missing the point of what I'm saying, and having a meltdown at everyone who disagrees with you, FYI that isn't usually how discussions work.

Back on topic; I think it's safe to assume that GT7 is trying to (or at least should be) capture the pinnacle of motorsport, for example:

In my opinion despite how much apparent effort PD are putting into their cars and tracks they have failed at capturing the atmosphere above, they've spent all their time fussing over "realism" and ended up with a game that lacks any soul. Consider for example the feeling you get when completing a championship, for me the experience was very underwhelming compared to previous racing games, including previous GT titles. Similarly if I do a time trial of the only city track, I would expect to be driving in a lively city (like an actual street circuit anywhere in the world, even in Hawaii), but instead I'm left feeling like Cillian Murphy in 28 Days Later . Likewise for the limited rally tracks, which I feel like driving in the back of someone's pony paddock, a far cry from what happens in real rally.

Looking at the amount of time PD has had to develop GT7 compared to the Crew Motorfest as an example, I really feel (and I'm clearly not the only one) they should have done much more; eg. street circuits, weather & day/night on all tracks, a soundtrack not mostly recycled, to name a few. If I want the feeling of being on a track with a casual atmosphere I'll go to a track day so that at least I can push my car to the limit which I can't as safely on a public road. If I want the feeling of a proper motorsport event than I'll either attend a proper full attendance event or play a game that simulates a similar feeling. Unless of course PD are trying to achieve "the real covid simulator", then they've captured the right atmosphere very well.

This video captures a lot of the points I'm making so to not sound redundant here it is:

 

[xtroplay]

I can't stress enough how much I would prefer to have less detail and more content. If they take this long to make, just stop making them this well.

 

[AlexWilmot]

I'm laughing because you're comically missing the point of what I'm saying, and having a meltdown at everyone who disagrees with you, FYI that isn't usually how discussions work.

Back on topic; I think it's safe to assume that GT7 is trying to (or at least should be) capture the pinnacle of motorsport, for example:

View attachment 1275781
View attachment 1275782

In my opinion despite how much apparent effort PD are putting into their cars and tracks they have failed at capturing the atmosphere above, they've spent all their time fussing over "realism" and ended up with a game that lacks any soul. Consider for example the feeling you get when completing a championship, for me the experience was very underwhelming compared to previous racing games, including previous GT titles. Similarly if I do a time trial of the only city track, I would expect to be driving in a lively city (like an actual street circuit anywhere in the world, even in Hawaii), but instead I'm left feeling like Cillian Murphy in 28 Days Later . Likewise for the limited rally tracks, which I feel like driving in the back of someone's pony paddock, a far cry from what happens in real rally.

Looking at the amount of time PD has had to develop GT7 compared to the Crew Motorfest as an example, I really feel (and I'm clearly not the only one) they should have done much more; eg. street circuits, weather & day/night on all tracks, a soundtrack not mostly recycled, to name a few. If I want the feeling of being on a track with a casual atmosphere I'll go to a track day so that at least I can push my car to the limit which I can't as safely on a public road. If I want the feeling of a proper motorsport event than I'll either attend a proper full attendance event or play a game that simulates a similar feeling. Unless of course PD are trying to achieve "the real covid simulator", then they've captured the right atmosphere very well.

This video captures a lot of the points I'm making so to not sound redundant here it is:

Well despite this entire post being drivel… if your track days look like one specific spot on a rally stage or the start of the legendary 24hr of LeMans, I want whatever you’re having

 

[JustMac]

Idk if my input will help, but I will start by saying this.

I have experience with modeling, texturing, rigging, Etc and it can be VERY time consuming, especially if you want to do things right.

Making sure all of the surfaces of your work are neatly made up of 3&4 sided polygons.

Making sure your texture maps are setup properly.

If you don't, then your work will have issues, especially when exporting to other programs for rendering etc.

I would rather them take the time necessary in order to provide the resulting vehicles we have now, which are just STUNNING, to see keeping in mind this is a cross platform title.

I understand the frustration, but in this day and age, we have a lot of other racing games to help make up for what we believe others are lacking.

I am still in total ignorance about how modern AAA games are made on any level so this is interesting to hear!

So, are assets like cars made via programming or is it all UI-based modelling?

 

[Dave A]

Meanwhile, races at Oulton Park:

The festival atmosphere is killing me. To be fair, when go in person (this is my local track, 10 mins drive from me) the atmosphere is good, but from a driving perspective (I've driven the track) you don't notice very much going on. People buzzing around and chatting etc. doesn't translate to the drivers experience of the atmosphere during the race. Before and after, sure, but not while driving.

 

[jergto]

What are you on about.. the last update added 2 generations of Japanese cars that weren't in the game, these aren't variations and then PD added the Aston Martin Valkyrie.
You've been watching too many rant videos on YT jumping on the "PD bad" bandwagon you've forgotten what's actually in the game.

Im not in the bandwagon, I'm an OG to calling out the crap PD puts us through. People that continue to eat it up with a **** eating grin are a cancer to games. I haven't forgotten, last time I checked its 2023, last mclaren is from 2016, no koenigseggs, no Dodge update with an ACR, etc. No new Porsche, no new BMW, nothing new.

I saw someone posted here that this game only had 60 new cars at launch, everything else was from GT Sport. ****ing pathetic.

 

[AlexWilmot]

Im not in the bandwagon, I'm an OG to calling out the crap PD puts us through. People that continue to eat it up with a **** eating grin are a cancer to games. I haven't forgotten, last time I checked its 2023, last mclaren is from 2016, no koenigseggs, no Dodge update with an ACR, etc. No new Porsche, no new BMW, nothing new.

I saw someone posted here that this game only had 60 new cars at launch, everything else was from GT Sport. ****ing pathetic.

Your post is literally cancer to the GT community, look at how you’re carrying yourself here

Think you’re an OG because you’ve played a video game, get out of here

 

[05XR8]

Im not in the bandwagon, I'm an OG to calling out the crap PD puts us through. People that continue to eat it up with a **** eating grin are a cancer to games. I haven't forgotten, last time I checked its 2023, last mclaren is from 2016, no koenigseggs, no Dodge update with an ACR, etc. No new Porsche, no new BMW, nothing new.

I saw someone posted here that this game only had 60 new cars at launch, everything else was from GT Sport. ****ing pathetic.

Kaz gave reason why they haven’t modelled many 2023 cars. Whatever reasons for all the brands(as examples) you mentioned, we just don’t know why many aren’t updated.

We do have the C8, the AMG GT cars from 2019-2020, up to date Toyotas race cars, road cars and Subaru, current model Mazda 3 and MX-5(still keeping in mind the Mazda brand are due To update the Mazda 2), an up to date Civic Type R with the next generation just debuting, defunct DTM car, up to date Super Formula open wheel race cars, way I’m defending Kaz/PD decision(there’s nothing to defend) and no way to quell player frustration, anxiety or how many players feel.

 

[jergto]

Your post is literally cancer to the GT community, look at how you’re carrying yourself here

Think you’re an OG because you’ve played a video game, get out of here

I'm not a PD meat rider, these guys need to be called out, $100 game that was released with only 60 new cars. Atrocious.

I'm more of an OG than you, what do you drive? I can't to wait see this.

 

[Ande3200]

Im not in the bandwagon, I'm an OG to calling out the crap PD puts us through. People that continue to eat it up with a **** eating grin are a cancer to games. I haven't forgotten, last time I checked its 2023, last mclaren is from 2016, no koenigseggs, no Dodge update with an ACR, etc. No new Porsche, no new BMW, nothing new.

I saw someone posted here that this game only had 60 new cars at launch, everything else was from GT Sport. ****ing pathetic.

It was 86 actully, witch was more new cars than forza horizon 5 launched with, horizon 5 had less than 20 new cars when it lt launched

 

[SU_Tempest]

I disagree. When you attend a motorsport event or take your own car to a track day, the atmosphere is much more exciting and engrossing than the atmosphere in GT7. In previous titles I could accept this since there may have been technical limitations but nowadays there is no excuse. Especially since many racing games have and do capture this atmosphere very well, and isn't that the point of a realistic racing game? To make you feel some of the adrenalin of actually being there? At the moment the only realism GT7 appears to capture for me is that of a car museum. But each to their own

When you attend a motorsport event or bring your car to a track day, you can meet other people, you can feel the heat of your vehicle, you can take in the smells in some cases - have you ever been to a dirt track event and noticed the smells? - and, if you're driving, you get to feel the car, your butt dyno is working, you feel many more sensations than you ever can in even the best simulators.

You can also get hurt for real and die for real on a race track. That's also part of the excitement of racing. Doing it for real is an experience like no other.

Why in the absolute hell would you compare what a video game, no matter how good, can offer to real life? It's a video game, temper your expectations!...

And to answer the original question... 270 days per car at the current level of detail definitely seems on par with current industry standards. You want video games to be as exciting as real life but you balk when it takes 270 days per car to reach the level of detail you see in GT7?

Do you perhaps have a problem with expectations?

 

[Dave A]

I'm not a PD meat rider, these guys need to be called out, $100 game that was released with only 60 new cars. Atrocious.
I'm more of an OG than you, what do you drive? I can't to wait see this.

What the hell does what a person drives have to do with this discussion about Gran Turismo?

Lay off with the inferred insults too.

 

[jergto]

It was 86 actully, witch was more new cars than forza horizon 5 launched with, horizon 5 had less than 20 new cars when it lt launched

I'm going to need a source for this, because I bought both of these games. Comparing then AND a year later I can tell you which has MUCH NEWER cars. Its not GT7 which are mostly 2016-2017 cars. LOL

Also, still waiting for your proof for T10 using cars from x360 days in Forza 7? We already have proof of blank interiors in GT5 & GT6, even in GT7. ouch

 

[Dave A]

I'm going to need a source for this, because I bought both of these games. Comparing then AND a year later I can tell you which has MUCH NEWER cars. Its not GT7 which are mostly 2016-2017 cars. LOL

Given GT Sport had 338 cars as of its final update and GT7 launched with 424 cars, the maths isnt too difficult to do on that one.

 ouch

And, grow up.

 

[TheGhostOf94]

I am still in total ignorance about how modern AAA games are made on any level so this is interesting to hear!

So, are assets like cars made via programming or is it all UI-based modelling?

I don't know about cars. I've done models of people and environments.

I haven't had a chance to dabble with thay YET.

MANY games use UI- Based modeling for assets. The industry leader is Autodesk Maya I believe, but there's Blender as well.

I've used Maya extensively. The process of sculpting from a single polygon, all the way to UV mapping, exporting assets and applying textures.

There is a program called substance painter by Adobe which is used for creating highly detailed textures from scratch or applying pre made textures.

Finally I would go into another rprogram such as unreal engine, and import all textured assets into a rendered environment.

 

[jergto]

Given GT Sport had 338 cars as of its final update and GT7 launched with 424 cars, the maths isnt too difficult to do on that one.

And, grow up.

Are you his daddy? Given that all of the cars are from GT S and so are the tracks how does that compare (actually dont know why he is comparing it), to FH4 and FH5? These are two games that take place in different places, no track is the same which means there is much newer content since the world is new. Theres even a hotwheels version already out.

The maths may be difficult, where are these newer cars because I swear, some of the brands havent been updated since 2012 or 2016.

 

[SU_Tempest]

I am still in total ignorance about how modern AAA games are made on any level so this is interesting to hear!

So, are assets like cars made via programming or is it all UI-based modelling?

It depends on what you mean by "making a car"

A car in a racing game is an asset made up of multiple assets, it requires pretty much every major skillset in the industry to create one except perhaps copywriting.

3D modeling for the actual bodies and shapes you see, different 3D modelers specializing in details, interior parts, etc., 2D and texture artists, sound engineers, physics programmers... the list is long, and that's purely the people you need to make the car assets. It doesn't cover the people you need to represent the company and secure licensing, the other developers and artists building tracks, environments, characters that have to fit with the cars, user interfaces... mid-level producers and managers to ensure visual cohesion...

It's quite a long list to make a good car in a good, realistic racing game.

At the end of the day it depends on what your specialization is, but if you're specifically talking about the 3D modeling side, @TheGhostOf94 's post above mine is a great starting point, just remember it takes a lot more than modeling to get it right, especially in a game of GT7's caliber.

 

[Dave A]

Are you his daddy? Given that all of the cars are from GT S and so are the tracks how does that compare (actually dont know why he is comparing it), to FH4 and FH5?

Ignoring the wee cry for attention, you are completely wrong. 96 cars in GT7 at launch were not in GT Sport. 96 of them.

So no, not all cars were in GT Sport.

Tracks at launch, I agree, the GT7 launch offering was dissapointingly short on new locales compared to Sport. But we're talking cars here, unless you want to move those goal posts again.

The maths may be difficult, where are these newer cars because I swear, some of the brands havent been updated since 2012 or 2016

The maths is easy actually. And we're referring to cars new in GT7 that weren't in GT Sport, not cars manufactured in a certain year.

I would say that was obvious, but then you think 424 less 338 is difficult.

 

[jergto]

Ignoring the wee cry for attention, you are completely wrong. 96 cars in GT7 at launch were not in GT Sport. 96 of them.

So no, not all cars were in GT Sport.

Tracks at launch, I agree, the GT7 launch offering was dissapointingly short on new locales compared to Sport. But we're talking cars here, unless you want to move those goal posts again.

The maths is easy actually. And we're referring to cars new in GT7 that weren't in GT Sport, not cars manufactured in a certain year.

I would say that was obvious, but then you think 424 less 338 is difficult.

I'm still looking for those newer cars, not an updated car already in game. This brings me back to saying PD took the lazy approach. Lets just add older cars we have models of instead of putting actually NEW content. Certain year or not, I can't believe people defend this, fricken terrible.

 

[SU_Tempest]

I'm still looking for those newer cars, not an updated car already in game. This brings me back to saying PD took the lazy approach. Lets just add older cars we have models of instead of putting actually NEW content. Certain year or not, I can't believe people defend this, fricken terrible.

Very sincere question: If the models are good and the cars are good, exactly what's the problem with that? I genuinely don't get the anger at content recycling, would you prefer they make completely scratch content at every release? Even real-life car manufacturers aren't that diligent!

 

[Dave A]

I'm still looking for those newer cars, not an updated car already in game. This brings me back to saying PD took the lazy approach. Lets just add older cars we have models of instead of putting actually NEW content. Certain year or not, I can't believe people defend this, fricken terrible.

Well there were 96 cars not in GT Sport that were in GT7 at launch, so not already in the game I suppose. You're jumping from one incoherent point to another and I'm not really sure what argument you're making anymore? That 96 cars that weren't in the previous game isn't enough?

 

[Nebuc72]

I like how his signature is making fun of someone too. What a classy guy. A real benefit to the community.

 

[jergto]

Very sincere question: If the models are good and the cars are good, exactly what's the problem with that? I genuinely don't get the anger at content recycling, would you prefer they make completely scratch content at every release? Even real-life car manufacturers aren't that diligent!

I want to drive a crap load of newer cars tbh. I want to drive an ACR in the game, Viper hasn't been updated since GT6, even the paint of that car is atrocious. 992 GT3, newer GT4, newer m3/m4, newer mclaren, any koenigsegg, newer ferrari's, newer lambos, new GT500, new is500. We got these make belief VGT cars tho! In my search since I got answers from several people, GT7 has only added 36 new cars since launch, compared to Horizon 5's 137, a game that was built from the ground up. And T10 isn't adding cars without interiors either.

I don't need to hope for FM8 to give us this, I know it will be there before it gets to the GT series.

 

[05XR8]

I'm still looking for those newer cars, not an updated car already in game. This brings me back to saying PD took the lazy approach. Let’s just add older cars we have models of instead of putting actually NEW content. Certain year or not, I can't believe people defend this, fricken terrible.

I just pointed it out to you.

Kaz gave reason why they haven’t modelled many 2023 cars. Whatever reasons for all the brands(as examples) you mentioned, we just don’t know why many aren’t updated.

We do have the C8, the AMG GT cars from 2019-2020, up to date Toyotas race cars, road cars and Subaru, current model Mazda 3 and MX-5(still keeping in mind the Mazda brand are due To update the Mazda 2), an up to date Civic Type R with the next generation just debuting, defunct DTM car, up to date Super Formula open wheel race cars, way I’m defending Kaz/PD decision(there’s nothing to defend) and no way to quell player frustration, anxiety or how many players feel.

 

[SU_Tempest]

I want to drive a crap load of newer cars tbh.

Fair enough, but...

compared to Horizon 5's 137, a game that was built from the ground up.

... many of these cars are FH4 returners, and when we get around to the Fiat/Lancia/Abarth/Alfa update, will almost certainly bring back the ones that were in FH4. I know they don't compare to Vision GT one to one, but if we're gonna complain about fictional cars, I'm obligated to point out the Hot Wheels vehicles, the Barbie Corvette EV, and so on. To say nothing of versions of cars we've already had, like the Donut Media 370Zs and anything Forza Edition or Welcome Pack, to some extent.

I need to underline that I very explicitly do not think that's a bad thing, I am more in favor of recycling than getting trickled-down new content, but there are pros and cons on both sides of this fence.

Also, isn't "built from the ground up" supposed to apply to FM8?