Do GT7 cars and tracks really take that long to make?

[jergto]

Fair enough, but...



... many of these cars are FH4 returners, and when we get around to the Fiat/Lancia/Abarth/Alfa update, will almost certainly bring back the ones that were in FH4. I know they don't compare to Vision GT one to one, but if we're gonna complain about fictional cars, I'm obligated to point out the Hot Wheels vehicles, the Barbie Corvette EV, and so on. To say nothing of versions of cars we've already had, like the Donut Media 370Zs.

I need to underline that I very explicitly do not think that's a bad thing, I am more in favor of recycling than getting trickled-down new content, but there are pros and cons on both sides of this fence.

Also, isn't "built from the ground up" supposed to apply to FM8?

Andre3200 wanted to compare GT S and GT7 to FH4 and FH5, the latter being built from the ground up since its an entire new world, and so is the hot wheels update. While they were right that theres more new cars when the game launched, GT7 has only had 36 new cars added while FH5 has 137 so far.

 

[Famine]

While they were right that theres more new cars when the game launched, GT7 has only had 36 new cars added while FH5 has 137 so far.

FH5 also launched with 198 fewer cars than FH4 excluding FH4's DLC Hot Wheels Legends and LEGO Speed Champions cars. Many of the 100-odd cars added are actually cars cut from FH4 coming back again...

To date, FH5 hasn't actually matched FH4's total final car count. And I don't want to burst your bubble, but FH4 and FH5 are the racing games I play the most outside of GT and it's not "built from the ground up since its an entire new world"; it's pretty close to a reskin.


As this topic is about the modelling, it should also be pointed out that many fans complain about certain returning cars to FH5 being the very same model as was in FH4, with the same flaws. Some go back even further - there's an E30 M3 that people say is an FH2 model, although I didn't play that title so I can't vouch for that.

 

[jergto]

FH5 also launched with 198 fewer cars than FH4 excluding FH4's DLC Hot Wheels Legends and LEGO Speed Champions cars. Many of the 100-odd cars added are actually cars cut from FH4 coming back again...

To date, FH5 hasn't actually matched FH4's total final car count.

As this topic is about the modelling, it should also be pointed out that many fans complain about certain returning cars to FH5 being the very same model as was in FH4, with the same flaws. Some go back even further - there's an E30 M3 that people say is an FH2 model, although I didn't play that title so I can't vouch for that.

I just looked it up, 711 vs 671. About the E30, apparently the FH2 model is modeled after the '86 M3, while the FH4 was modeled after the '89 M3.

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

I'm still looking for those newer cars, not an updated car already in game. This brings me back to saying PD took the lazy approach. Lets just add older cars we have models of instead of putting actually NEW content. Certain year or not, I can't believe people defend this, fricken terrible.

I wish they'd add  more older cars they already have models of. IIRC only 14 of the 91 cars added at launch were returning Premium models, and post launch there's been only 2 out of 50 so far.

 

[JDMKING13]

These are a few quick pictures I took at Brands Hatch.. I saw someone post a picture they were there. As you can see there are many people along the track side in all different positions, and they move unlike majority of the other games where they’re just mannequins. GT7 prerace screen is one of the best I've seen in racing games. the way the camera goes around the track showing off the beautiful track atmosphere is always a pleasure to watch.

These Picture are from @Sojiira He has a wonderful photo album in which he calls random shots. In there you will find amazing detail within the tracks. GT7 has the people around the track put on rain jackets once it starts to rain which makes the environment more realistic… again I don’t know too many games that do this...

I played all of the sims except the exclusive CPU ones and even with those I watch the streamers play them. I said it before GT7 track environments and atmosphere can hang with the best of them and I actually prefer it over the other racing games.

 

[Ande3200]

I'm going to need a source for this, because I bought both of these games. Comparing then AND a year later I can tell you which has MUCH NEWER cars. Its not GT7 which are mostly 2016-2017 cars. LOL

Also, still waiting for your proof for T10 using cars from x360 days in Forza 7? We already have proof of blank interiors in GT5 & GT6, even in GT7. ouch

Forza horizon 5 didin’t have much new cars campared to horizon 4, gt7 had more more new cars added when it launched campared to fh5,

Their is ported x360 models still present in fm7 and even the latest horizon games and even in new motorsport that releasing soon

 

[RobertHammer]

Here you got enough proof that they been reusing the same models from x360

Forza's obsession with reusing models is comical yet depressing at this point

I’m looking forward to the new Motorsport, but recycling 3d models and at the same time reducing the car list in the release is a bit shame. Anyway, related to the topic of the thread, a few comparison pictures of car models in FM1, FM2, FM3 vs FM7 FM1 - FM7 and real car (notice headlights for...

forums.forza.net

 

[AlexWilmot]

I'm not a PD meat rider, these guys need to be called out, $100 game that was released with only 60 new cars. Atrocious.

Actually quite the opposite, Those of you who spent more time bitchin on the internet in your circle jerks talking RoflWaffles videos as a bible instead of actually playing the game need to be called out.

Us "PD Meat Riders" have issues with the game and have been public about them.
What the story really is you've made a stupid statement on the internet, got called out for it and had to resort to calling names and swearing like what's in your recent posts because you don't have the intelligence to hold a discussion or conversation.

I'm more of an OG than you,

I had no idea that being an OG meant your opinions were higher ranked thank others, my mistake… sorry but what qualifications do I need to be an OG?

But I don't get that if you were an OG and 2 OG cars returning to the game while having a modern hypercar added too, would be an issue for you.

what do you drive? I can't to wait see this.

Also what does driving a car have to do with this?
I mean if you really wanted to go there I’ll show you, as previously posted on this site when this has come up again

77C5B43E-E74C-49B4-BCAB-13D028E853DD.jpeg

• AlexWilmot
• Feb 7, 2022

I have also built and raced caterhams, karts, formula fords, ford escorts, I can assure you if you wanted to measure limbs here... Mines bigger

 

[jergto]

Actually quite the opposite, Those of you who spent more time bitchin on the internet in your circle jerks talking RoflWaffles videos as a bible instead of actually playing the game need to be called out.

I only discovered roflwaffles recently, I pretty much agree with everything he's said but also add that the series has been missing Koenigsegg.

Us "PD Meat Riders" have issues with the game and have been public about them.
What the story really is you've made a stupid statement on the internet, got called out for it and had to resort to calling names and swearing like what's in your recent posts because you don't have the intelligence to hold a discussion or conversation.

Negative, theres too many PD meat riders and I get it, its a GT centric forum. I'm pissed that I cannot get into any newer cars since we are stuck in the GT Sport days, a game I completely missed. I'm responding to these while also being busy working, from home.

I had no idea that being an OG meant your opinions were higher ranked thank others, my mistake… sorry but what qualifications do I need to be an OG?

But I don't get that if you were an OG and 2 OG cars returning to the game while having a modern hypercar added too, would be an issue for you.

Also what does driving a car have to do with this?
I mean if you really wanted to go there I’ll show you, as previously posted on this site when this has come up again

77C5B43E-E74C-49B4-BCAB-13D028E853DD.jpeg

• AlexWilmot
• Feb 7, 2022

I have also built and raced caterhams, karts, formula fords, ford escorts, I can assure you if you wanted to measure limbs here... Mines bigger

I'm an OG at calling out PD's antics, same tired and true antics. Having been around since the GT1 days, we can certainly call out PD/Kaz to how much a disappointment GT7 is considering they have been at this since the late 90s.

Meh, the RS is alright, I was considering getting it but figured an M2 Competition would be a better daily and faster too. I'm sure you've got the biggest limbs bro, you've dealt with nothing but small engine vehicles. I own a Viper too so my package is definitely smol.

 

[AlexWilmot]

I only discovered roflwaffles recently, I pretty much agree with everything he's said but also add that the series has been missing Koenigsegg.

Negative, theres too many PD meat riders and I get it, its a GT centric forum. I'm pissed that I cannot get into any newer cars since we are stuck in the GT Sport days, a game I completely missed. I'm responding to these while also being busy working, from home.

I'm an OG at calling out PD's antics, same tired and true antics. Having been around since the GT1 days, we can certainly call out PD/Kaz to how much a disappointment GT7 is considering they have been at this since the late 90s.

Meh, the RS is alright, I was considering getting it but figured an M2 Competition would be a better daily and faster too. I'm sure you've got the biggest limbs bro, you've dealt with nothing but small engine vehicles. I own a Viper too so my package is definitely smol.

Right I’m not even going to specifically pick apart your Bs post.

Looking at your post history you just complain, you clearly don’t add value to any community.
I can also make up **** and say I’m looking at a 720s but hey this is all distraction from the original point.

Congrats a lot of people work from home, doesn’t make you special, neither does your real life car choice. If you want to boost your ego go do it elsewhere because frankly, I don’t give a **** what you drive. RS is just a daily btw and to think it’s a less car to own just means you’re not into cars, you’re into bragging rights because you can get yourself into debt.

You made a comment that PD keep adding variations, last update had 0 variations, 2 different generations and a modern hypercar(are we just going to forget that in the discussion of new age cars added?) but the crux is your opinions and views are inaccurate to say the least.
When confronted you don’t have the ability to discuss further and perhaps see and allow others to have their perspectives.

Well done on contributing to making the forum uncomfortable for people who want to actually want to discuss and play GT7.

 

[Dave A]

I only discovered roflwaffles recently, I pretty much agree with everything he's said but also add that the series has been missing Koenigsegg.

I agree with some of what Rolfwaffle says, but he hasn't made up stuff like stating all GT7's cars were old cars already in the game. He articulates his points well and gives sound reasoning for them whether you agree with him or not. His videos aren't a springboard for making crap up.

I get a car list might not be to your taste, personally I have zero issues with GT7's car list. I have plenty of issues with GT7 as any regulars on here will know all too well. But the car list is not one of them. You are fine to disagree, just don't go round making false claims in the process of making your points, it doesn't do you or the rest of the forum any favours.

 

[jergto]

Right I’m not even going to specifically pick apart your Bs post.

Looking at your post history you just complain, you clearly don’t add value to any community.
I can also make up **** and say I’m looking at a 720s but hey this is all distraction from the original point.

Congrats a lot of people work from home, doesn’t make you special, neither does your real life car choice. If you want to boost your ego go do it elsewhere because frankly, I don’t give a **** what you drive. RS is just a daily btw and to think it’s a less car to own just means you’re not into cars, you’re into bragging rights because you can get yourself into debt.

You made a comment that PD keep adding variations, last update had 0 variations, 2 different generations and a modern hypercar(are we just going to forget that in the discussion of new age cars added?) but the crux is your opinions and views are inaccurate to say the least.
When confronted you don’t have the ability to discuss further and perhaps see and allow others to have their perspectives.

Well done on contributing to making the forum uncomfortable for people who want to actually want to discuss and play GT7.

The crux of my argument IS CORRECT, if you like racing with racecars and anything japanese, this game is for you. But if you look at the Euro and American brands, there is a HELL of a lot to be desired. It makes sense having looked at the dealerships, cars were carried over from GT S, mostly race cars. But a pretty sad list of road cars for American and Euro brands.
PD wasted time on those SEMA cars too. I checked for an R8 and wasn't surprised they only had a v8 R8 road car. LOL


Also, I'm only paying for my M2 since its a 21. All of my other toys are paid off!

 

[AlexWilmot]

I agree with some of what Rolfwaffle says, but he hasn't made up stuff like stating all GT7's cars were old cars already in the game. He articulates his points well and gives sound reasoning for them whether you agree with him or not. His videos aren't a springboard for making crap up.

I get a car list might not be to your taste, personally I have zero issues with GT7's car list. I have plenty of issues with GT7 as any regulars on here will know all too well. But the car list is not one of them. You are fine to disagree, just don't go round making false claims in the process of making your points, it doesn't do you or the rest of the forum any favours.

This quote is not mine fyi

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

...

I played all of the sims except the exclusive CPU ones and even with those I watch the streamers play them. I said it before GT7 track environments and atmosphere can hang with the best of them and I actually prefer it over the other racing games.

Clearly I haven't spent enough time looking around Grand Valley, I forgot the hotdog truck was there and the burgers are blowing my mind!

 

[Dave A]

This quote is not mine fyi

Yeah, I have no idea what happened there

 

[Silverfox1984]

You're just going to have to wait for that Mitsubishi Evo VII like the rest of us.

 

[GTEnthusiast9]

I think we should accept that there are clearly 2 different opinions here, and you guys really shouldn't be spending your weekend arguing about who's right. For the camp that overall thinks GT7 is a worthwhile game, good for you enjoy it, I'm happy for you and really have no intention to change your mind. And for us who are disappointed, good for us, and we can only hope that our voice will help make future racing games better.

Bringing it back to the original question in my thread; if I were to accept that the time estimates PD has provided us are genuine the real point for me here is whether you feel that time has been well spent. I personally feel it hasn't been well spent. As mentioned I personally would rather more of that time be taken away from making ultra realistic burgers and an ambulance, and spent on gameplay and the atmosphere of the pinnacle of motorsport. I can experience myself what it's like to be on a track with my friends in the stands and a few dozen other randoms, but I cannot experience (and neither can you) what it's like to win the famous lemans while the world is watching, to rip up the gravel in a rally corner and zip inches past screaming fans, and even to experience the disappointment of missing a single turn and completely destroying my pride and joy and losing a championship. Those are the kind of experiences I expect from a good racing game, to go where I can't in real life. I feel many rally and F1 games capture this atmosphere and feature gameplay that takes you on a journey and makes you feel like a driver in top tier motorsport. I had hoped GT7 would be able to capture some of this but it hasn't for me.

Therefore I'm more confident now than ever that the direction GT is being taken is not for me, and PD's appalling disregard for what GT fans want is a sure sign that this won't change anytime soon, if ever. PD is unfortunately not the kind of developer I can get behind, nor spend my money on their products.

For the fans that still adore GT please go ahead and enjoy the new GT movie whenever it decides to launch, for the rest of us feel free to enjoy this movie:

 

[SU_Tempest]

we can only hope that our voice will help make future racing games better.

I personally feel it hasn't been well spent. As mentioned I personally would rather more of that time be taken away from making ultra realistic burgers and an ambulance, and spent on gameplay and the atmosphere of the pinnacle of motorsport.

Once again, we have two of the most repeated myths in the industry: the notion that players are owed a voice (and the implication that voicing it on a fan forum means anything), and the idea that game development is a zero-sum game and time/resources spent on one thing (in this case, trackside details) always and necessarily means resources not spent on other things (in that case, car models). There's a chasm in requirements between the two, and I can assure you it is not the same people working on those things.

But hey, you don't have to believe me, you can just look at the GT7 credits yourself!

(For my sanity, these aren't complete screenshots, the list of artists in both teams exceeds the screen size.)

Geez GTEnthusiast, it's almost like game development teams can work on more than one thing at once! And it still takes 270 days to fully recreate and model a car, because guess what, these people care about the level of detail just as much if not more than you do. That's what it takes, with this whole team, and it's, once again, arguably the industry standard.

It's not a real surprise that other racing games resort to recycling content to keep the players that want more content happy. Then we have the other side of the coin; "Why aren't <developer> remaking these awful <old console> models already?"

It's funny. GT has been through this already, with GT5 and GT6, in fact.

It's all well and good if the direction GT is going isn't for you - it most certainly isn't for me either - but the very least you could do is not make absurd assumptions and have just a little bit more of a clue on how development works. The ultra-realistic burgers aren't the reason why GT7 isn't for you, it isn't a matter of "Oh if the fries and hotdogs were PS2 quality I'd have a game I enjoy." I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but GT7 has been designed that way from the start, and whatever visual fidelity the trackside elements have wouldn't have changed anything.

You are getting the game Kazunori Yamauchi wants. Not the game you or "the fans" - who have been bickering all day on the subject since video game forums existed - want.

Once again, I recommend tempering your expectations, or perhaps looking at other racing games.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

Wow! Source?

Easy. We have the 458 Italia GT3 in the game, right? Well, that car went on track for the first time in 2011, so before GT6, and would only show up in GT Sport, a game from 2016. Ferrari started this year to race the 296, replacing the 488. Now, the 488 was released in 2016 as the 458 Italia sucessor in its racing form, and never even got to any GT game, be that GT Sport or 7.

So, yeah, you could say Ferrari is faster than Poliphony Digital at "making" cars.

 

[sonnyboychris]

These Picture are from @Sojiira He has a wonderful photo album in which he calls random shots. In there you will find amazing detail within the tracks. GT7 has the people around the track put on rain jackets once it starts to rain which makes the environment more realistic… again I don’t know too many games that do this...

I actually wouldn't mind a "track walk" mode where you can literally walk the arenas/tracks and appreciate their work. So much of it goes unnoticed and unappreciated.

Thanks for sharing that.

 

[Nebuc72]

Easy. We have the 458 Italia GT3 in the game, right? Well, that car went on track for the first time in 2011, so before GT6, and would only show up in GT Sport, a game from 2016. Ferrari started this year to race the 296, replacing the 488. Now, the 488 was released in 2016 as the 458 Italia sucessor in its racing form, and never even got to any GT game, be that GT Sport or 7.

So, yeah, you could say Ferrari is faster than Poliphony Digital at "making" cars.

What about all the other cars PD have made and released in the interim?

 

[I-M-Pulsive]

personally would rather more of that time be taken away from making ultra realistic burgers

That half an hour spent on adding some generic assets to the game probably by an intern isn't going to free up any space to make GT7 better.

I feel many rally and F1 games capture this atmosphere and feature gameplay that takes you on a journey and makes you feel like a driver in top tier motorsport

Why not start a better world with yourself, and have fun with those games? Instead of trying to ask for peoples opinion while you have already made your mind up. I get it, talking away your feelings is an excellent way to deal with things. But it's not going to make the game or your enjoyment of other games better.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

What about all the other cars PD have made and released in the interim?

You asked for a source regarding the statement: "It is easier and faster for Porsche and Ferrari to release a new real GT3 car than for PD to release a new virtual GT3 car".

 

[Nebuc72]

You asked for a source regarding the statement: "It is easier and faster for Porsche and Ferrari to release a new real GT3 car than for PD to release a new virtual GT3 car".

Yes, and have PD not made and released multiple GT3 cars? Last time I checked the game had more than the 458 and the 911?

 

[jergto]

The best option is to try other games. Its like sticking to one car brand, you're really missing out.

Since PD drops the ball in what seems like every iteration after GT4, you have options now. The good news is you can build a PC that can beat the ps5 and upcoming ps5's graphics. I'll even go as far as beat their speed too with Microsoft's direct drive coming out and nvme gen 5.

I have a series X, but for the upcoming Forza and Starfield, I'm definitely playing that on PC. Might have to sell a kidney to upgrade my 3080 for a 4090. We'll see!

 

[tankuroded]

Once again, we have two of the most repeated myths in the industry: the notion that players are owed a voice (and the implication that voicing it on a fan forum means anything), and the idea that game development is a zero-sum game and time/resources spent on one thing (in this case, trackside details) always and necessarily means resources not spent on other things (in that case, car models). There's a chasm in requirements between the two, and I can assure you it is not the same people working on those things.

But hey, you don't have to believe me, you can just look at the GT7 credits yourself!

(For my sanity, these aren't complete screenshots, the list of artists in both teams exceeds the screen size.)

You forgot to account the outsourcers PD now hire - the game has credits for these companies.

EDIT: Companies in question: (Options > About the Game > Notice of Intellectual Property)

• izmocars
• croobi (amana inc.)
• Z-FLAG CG TEAM
• ModelingCafe inc. [already revealed around the S660 being added to GT Sport]
• SAFEHOUSE, inc.
• Barehand Modeling Studio inc.

 

[GTEnthusiast9]

Once again, we have two of the most repeated myths in the industry: the notion that players are owed a voice (and the implication that voicing it on a fan forum means anything), and the idea that game development is a zero-sum game and time/resources spent on one thing (in this case, trackside details) always and necessarily means resources not spent on other things (in that case, car models). There's a chasm in requirements between the two, and I can assure you it is not the same people working on those things.

(For my sanity, these aren't complete screenshots, the list of artists in both teams exceeds the screen size.)

Geez GTEnthusiast, it's almost like game development teams can work on more than one thing at once! And it still takes 270 days to fully recreate and model a car, because guess what, these people care about the level of detail just as much if not more than you do. That's what it takes, with this whole team, and it's, once again, arguably the industry standard.

It's not a real surprise that other racing games resort to recycling content to keep the players that want more content happy. Then we have the other side of the coin; "Why aren't <developer> remaking these awful <old console> models already?"

It's funny. GT has been through this already, with GT5 and GT6, in fact.

It's all well and good if the direction GT is going isn't for you - it most certainly isn't for me either - but the very least you could do is not make absurd assumptions and have just a little bit more of a clue on how development works. The ultra-realistic burgers aren't the reason why GT7 isn't for you, it isn't a matter of "Oh if the fries and hotdogs were PS2 quality I'd have a game I enjoy." I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but GT7 has been designed that way from the start, and whatever visual fidelity the trackside elements have wouldn't have changed anything.

You are getting the game Kazunori Yamauchi wants. Not the game you or "the fans" - who have been bickering all day on the subject since video game forums existed - want.

Once again, I recommend tempering your expectations, or perhaps looking at other racing games.

Are you able to please take us through what actually happens during the development process, from the sound of the things you are working in the game dev industry correct and so therefore have better insight than us here? As mentioned in the first sentence of my original post, my aim in this thread is to get more insight into what actually happens to produce these assets beyond "they are detailed/laser scanned" to genuinely better understand why the timeframes are as long as stated.

Thus far there has only been one response here that looked in detail at how tracks are made, but the development process for playable vehicles is different to static environments and prop assets (eg. rigging, animating, programming etc), so please break it down for us so these numbers can have more meaning, the more detail the better.

 

[SU_Tempest]

Are you able to please take us through what actually happens during the development process, from the sound of the things you are working in the game dev industry correct and so therefore have better insight than us here? As mentioned in the first sentence of my original post, my aim in this thread is to get more insight into what actually happens to produce these assets beyond "they are detailed/laser scanned" to genuinely better understand why the timeframes are as long as stated.

Thus far there has only been one response here that looked in detail at how tracks are made, but the development process for playable vehicles is different to static environments and prop assets (eg. rigging, animating, programming etc), so please break it down for us so these numbers can have more meaning, the more detail the better.

I don't work at Polyphony, I'm not privy to their development workflows or the way they do things. Everything I've stated is generalities that are fairly obvious if you simply stop and think about it.

If you have the least amount of experience working in any industry where tasks are completed by teams, you surely understand the concept of work-hours and how it doesn't work on a linear time scale. When Kaz said "It takes 270 days to make a car" he almost certainly did not literally mean the entire team works on a single car, one by one, until it's done, then they move on to the next; because once again, dev teams are groups of people that work on multiple things at once.

It's much, much, much more likely he meant 270 days worth of work-hours. This figure can be split and distributed between every team (and as @tankuroded mentioned, every subcontractor; it definitely helps not to keep everything in-house) to keep development times within an acceptable time frame.

It is a generality, but the one generality I'll mention is that the more detailed and the more accurately an asset has to replicate a real-life equivalent, the longer it takes to develop from scratch. It also doesn't account for anything they do to save time or work more efficiently (e.g., it's entirely possible Polys already has access to plenty of reference data and figures so they don't actually start from complete scratch on every single car).

Honestly, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter what my credentials are or what the exact details are. Even the 270-day figure is pretty meaningless at the end of the day. Even if I could give you a complete breakdown of how much time each person spends on what particular tasks, I doubt you will find the answer satisfying.

You came in with this thread explaining you are a hobbyist who doesn't work in game development and you further made the assumption that the realistic burgers took some of the fun you expected away. It's fair to question the decisions Polys has made for GT7 but it's complete absurdity to assume the reason is "If only they spent less time modeling X and more time making Y or working on Z" and then demand precise hour counts to support an argument that already falls flat on its face.

Simply put, it doesn't work that way.

 

[jimihemmy]

PD's appalling disregard for what GT fans want is a sure sign that this won't change anytime soon, if ever.

See, here is where the problem is. GT was never "for the fans". It was a game Kaz wanted to make and share with the world.
You either like his vision or you don't. PD does not owe us anything.

 

[sonnyboychris]

See, here is where the problem is. GT was never "for the fans". It was a game Kaz wanted to make and share with the world.
You either like his vision or you don't. PD does not owe us anything.

You're right, they don't and people should vote with their wallets if they don't like it.