Do we care for modeled, covered engine bay (ala Forza's AutoVista)

  • Thread starter daus26
  • 88 comments
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Should PD model every car's engine bay for next generation?

  • Yes, it should be the standard for next generation consoles.

    Votes: 50 22.8%
  • No, I rather they focus on modeling more cars.

    Votes: 169 77.2%

  • Total voters
    219
Wow, is that you Toko? :bowdown: If PD keep to their historical model of doing everything in house with a smaller staff than their competitors, then a resource trade off is a necessity. In which case, I'd say no to modeling engine bays on most cars. Do it on a few iconic cars, new and classic and call it a day. That way they can advertise it, it'll look cool, but it won't be a massive diversion of modeling resources away from car creation.
Excatly Johnny. 👍 I really want those features that people want to be a top priority. Oh, and no worries, it's me. haha. :)
 
Ahh yes. Let's add a feature for more people to whine and say "Oh why didn't PD add this car in, why are they wasting their time on this feature". NO. I want PD to focus only on modelling more cars, because it takes them awhile to even model some cars that everybody wants. It's perfect for Photo mode, yes, but I feel that it's a waste of resourse IMO.

And please don't tell me "Oh, so you rather quantity over quality because at least other racing games are featuring the ins and outs of the car"... Really, it'll just create more drama for folks here to say PD is taking too long or lazy in other areas. Sounds is one of them already, so PD needs to focus on that and others excluding this since it adds to core of the game.


This is what I thought about too. If they're really going to go full-blown details on the ins-and-outs of the car, it would have to be on all or nothing. That's why I made the poll a simple yes or no.

Honestly, I can last through the whole generation without having the trunks, underside, and engine bays modeled. It's plenty enough that PD already models pretty much the whole interior (including rear passengers) of the car, which would make it decent enough, if we could open up the doors for photo mode or whatever (doubt it). The biggest concern for me is Forza going from 600 something, to just over 200. That's a lot of cars being cut for the risks of featuring Autovista for every car.

As for the next generation after (PS5?), I'm still undecided on that. I think at that point, PD will just have to follow suit.
 
I for one am glad PD did not pull the same crap as Forza has done and remove a majority of the cars just to be able to sell them again. I'd rather have them available to drive now, not after having bought them again.

The eyecandy cars drive not a bit better than the regular ones. Isn't this a driving game?

Cockpits are one thing. Hot wheels style opening doors and hoods so you can see the engine (oooh, aaahhh! LOL) is quite another.

Total waste of resources, be it modeling, storage space, or extra programming involved. Use those resources to give us cars to Drive, not sit in the showroom and gawk at.
 
I'd say the poll speaks for it's self on this one. Most people can appreciate beautiful things here specially when it comes to cars. Gazing at the attention to detail that goes into each engine is would be absolutely every true car fans dream in any driving sim but, at the end of the day driving is what most people would rather do.


I'm just saying
:banghead:
 
Because right now. Livery Editor is still missing, engine sounds still needs sorting out, cars that are STILL missing that people want into the series and probably others as well. As much as I'll want a Autovista-like feature, don't you think it's better to improve in those areas first?

As we've seen PD aren't good at implementing new features and though I want a Livery editor (you've seen my stance on PD Toko) I feel they actually can execute the looks better than anything else. That means they probably would do a better job making their own autovista or active garage than they would with a livery editor or sounds (which have taken them 15 years now). I agree they should improve but at this point in the world of simulations you'd think PD would have done many things that even arcade racers do now days that GT doesn't, including this area of detailed internals/interiors.

And for the moon one, that's just PD's way of wanting to be different from other racing games. I don't see what's the problem of wanting something like that in a game, not like you're forced to use it?

Oh the old "not like you have to play it or use it, so don't comment on it", kind of asinine to use that line of rhetoric. I don't have to use it but every little inane feature like such takes away from implements that you just flippin asked for, like livery editor and sounds. From the looks of the moon rover it doesn't seem like just an extreme vehicle like PD have given us to drive around, but an full on event/feature which takes up more room than just the rover itself. Is it cool yes, but it is counter to what you just asked for yet again. So I find it funny that you'd hardline against a feature that most games in the genre have, but not against another somewhat smaller features. Seems to contradict.
 
Oh the old "not like you have to play it or use it, so don't comment on it", kind of asinine to use that line of rhetoric. I don't have to use it but every little inane feature like such takes away from implements that you just flippin asked for, like livery editor and sounds. From the looks of the moon rover it doesn't seem like just an extreme vehicle like PD have given us to drive around, but an full on event/feature which takes up more room than just the rover itself. Is it cool yes, but it is counter to what you just asked for yet again. So I find it funny that you'd hardline against a feature that most games in the genre have, but not against another somewhat smaller features. Seems to contradict.
Than please tell me LMS. Which feature do you (and only you), prefer and believe is more worthy, because I find it more funny that you will be fine with a feature that you'll just sit down opening doors, hoods and trunk (well opening doors would nice for photomode). Do you actually think that would be any fun? Whereas the Moon feature (it hasn't been said yet so I'll put it like this). With the Moon feature (if you're allowed), you're in control of the Rover just cruising around on the moon and probably be able to take photos. Sure it may seem boring, but to be honest, I find that to be more entertaining than something you'll use for what, 10 - 20 seconds saying "Ooo so pretty" and never use again in the future.

So again. Sure no one asked for the Moon feature, and PD wasting their time on that said feature, I agree. But you know what? It's something new and minor to the series that probably a few people may actually enjoy (from what I've heard outside of GTPlanet). I just don't see what's so fun about opening doors and hoods in a garage screaming pretty graphics, and never use again... You got real life for that (execpt shouting pretty graphics).

Mind you, all this is based on me, I'm not speaking for everyone. Some likes the autovista feature, some don't and I understand that. But I do feel this feature will just not add anything to the main core of the game, (which is driving). That's what people looks for the most in racing games, and pretty much the Moon feature actually adds that as well.
 
Autovista was a feature that I am jealous of in Forza 4.

These games are for car enthusiasts and petrol heads (among others) and being able to essentially going to a "car porn mode" and oggle at cars and mess about with doors and trucks and hoods and see components is something that we will naturally find interesting.

I don't play Forza but I can recognize good ideas when I see them. Turn 10 has some really great ideas and my personal guess is that it's a mix of passion and being the underdog as well as a western take on racing/driving games that steers them to included new and interesting modes.

PD seems to rest on their laurels more often then not. I love them for what they've done and I grew up with them, but sometimes I just shake my head at the excruciatingly slow pace the GT series evolves at. They should do what the Japanese have always done, take other people's ideas/inventions and make them bigger/smaller, i.e. improve them...shamelessly.

I would love for PD to rip off many ideas that Forza has, it would make GT as a series more complete, more interesting and in the end more fun.
So rip off the rip off..
 
Than please tell me LMS. Which feature do you (and only you), prefer and believe is more worthy, because I find it more funny that you will be fine with a feature that you'll just sit down opening doors, hoods and trunk (well opening doors would nice for photomode).

Some of us actually enjoy and use photo mode up the wazoo, so I see no problem with it. In interactive garage would be nice probably not to the degree of Autovista, but there are other gains from having such things detailed, like a more interactive damage model, or even interactive tuning. At the end of the day it plays to their benefits because PD are good a making things look good.

Do you actually think that would be any fun? Whereas the Moon feature (it hasn't been said yet so I'll put it like this). With the Moon feature (if you're allowed), you're in control of the Rover just cruising around on the moon and probably be able to take photos.

The way you depict it one doesn't triumph over the other but when you realize that PD are better outfitted for the modeling I don't see why not do that. I do think an interactive garage will be fun, but driving a non-purpose built research machine in a racing game doesn't seem all that titillating.

Sure it may seem boring, but to be honest, I find that to be more entertaining than something you'll use for what, 10 - 20 seconds saying "Ooo so pretty" and never use again in the future.

Same could be said for the rover, "oh a moon rock, and look over there it's..........another moon rock!!!" That could equally get old fast.

So again. Sure no one asked for the Moon feature, and PD wasting their time on that said feature, I agree. But you know what? It's something new and minor to the series that probably a few people may actually enjoy (from what I've heard outside of GTPlanet). I just don't see what's so fun about opening doors and hoods in a garage screaming pretty graphics, and never use again... You got real life for that (execpt shouting pretty graphics).

Yeah an interactive garage and well detailed damage model that comes forth due to it sound old and played out by PD standards :dopey:. Once again you jumped to the conclusion that I wanted a complete comparable autovista feature by PD, even though my comments say other wise. Please read through, also even if I wanted it I don't have that in real life, unless I'm the Crown Prince of the UAE, I don't see how I'd ever be able to have an interactive level with a FXX or Hyaura. In other words it isn't like real life. However, I can at least get close to a rover thanks to the field I'm in and actually have been up close to mars rover prototypes. I can get you some pictures in a couple weeks when I go back if you'd like!!!

Mind you, all this is based on me, I'm not speaking for everyone. Some likes the autovista feature, some don't and I understand that. But I do feel this feature will just not add anything to the main core of the game, (which is driving). That's what people looks for the most in racing games, and pretty much the Moon feature actually adds that as well.

I'm quite aware it's based on your preferences. I've just given example of how it wouldn't be limited to interactive garages or opening doors. However, a moon rover doesn't really conduct to the core of driving, if GT was about exploration and research I could understand it. How does the moon rover add to realism of the game?

Also to your first question, you've seen many of my post and I just told you in the last one what I want as well, so it seems a but redundant to list them all here.:boggled:
 
Some of us actually enjoy and use photo mode up the wazoo, so I see no problem with it. In interactive garage would be nice probably not to the degree of Autovista, but there are other gains from having such things detailed, like a more interactive damage model, or even interactive tuning. At the end of the day it plays to their benefits because PD are good a making things look good.

The way you depict it one doesn't triumph over the other but when you realize that PD are better outfitted for the modeling I don't see why not do that. I do think an interactive garage will be fun, but driving a non-purpose built research machine in a racing game doesn't seem all that titillating.

Same could be said for the rover, "oh a moon rock, and look over there it's..........another moon rock!!!" That could equally get old fast.

Yeah an interactive garage and well detailed damage model that comes forth due to it sound old and played out by PD standards :dopey:. Once again you jumped to the conclusion that I wanted a complete comparable autovista feature by PD, even though my comments say other wise. Please read through, also even if I wanted it I don't have that in real life, unless I'm the Crown Prince of the UAE, I don't see how I'd ever be able to have an interactive level with a FXX or Hyaura. In other words it isn't like real life. However, I can at least get close to a rover thanks to the field I'm in and actually have been up close to mars rover prototypes. I can get you some pictures in a couple weeks when I go back if you'd like!!!

I'm quite aware it's based on your preferences. I've just given example of how it wouldn't be limited to interactive garages or opening doors. However, a moon rover doesn't really conduct to the core of driving, if GT was about exploration and research I could understand it. How does the moon rover add to realism of the game?

Also to your first question, you've seen many of my post and I just told you in the last one what I want as well, so it seems a but redundant to list them all here.:boggled:
Haha. Yes, I sometimes have a issue of misunderstanding, but I did read through your post mind you. :P But I guess after reading your post, I come to believe that both features we want are in the category of waste of resourses? lol. Not being biased either, just wanted to share my thoughts out.

Although, the pictures you've said, I'll like to see em. :)
 
Haha. Yes, I sometimes have a issue of misunderstanding, but I did read through your post mind you. :P But I guess after reading your post, I come to believe that both features we want are in the category of waste of resourses? lol. Not being biased either, just wanted to share my thoughts out.

Although, the pictures you've said, I'll like to see em. :)

Sure in a couple weeks (since tomorrow is Veteran's Day) it will be the following Monday.
 
It doesn't matter if a stupid feature is in one game or in every game, it's still a stupid feature. Why would you want them to focus on that so that 6 people can flip open a hood twice a year?

And I'm sorry, what? GT has easily the most accurate track models of any console game. "Thorough data capturing and GPS surveying enable us to recreate a true-to-life circuit scenery and track, with a precision reaching approximately 1 cm or less in deviation."

In some years "Autovista"/DriveClub and related features (drivers using the actual buttons and whatnot) will be the standard, therefore GT5/GT6's premium cars will be ... "standard" (very old) once again. Still, that shouldn't mean re-making cars from scratch so it isn't that bad.

Now, the problem on this is the damage model, an aspect in which PD lags behind several years. That requires a ton of effort for each car, which is what Turn10 is going and what PD isn't. If they don't we'll still see how awful it is even in 10 years (shockingly enough it's been 10 already), when the damage model of other games will be way more advanced.

About tracks, have you tried iRacing? There's absolutely nothing like it track-wise, not even close. Now compare GT5's (and Silverstone) to them and you'll see that once the industry standard is set to be laser scanning then PD's GT5/GT6's premium tracks will be ... you guessed it, and that requires re-making all those tracks from scratch, including going to the location.

All that means a good portion of the 10 years old job from PD is not future proof.


Actually you're wrong on both points.

The main graphical points for cars for the next generation or so will be shaders and polygonal modeling; GT5 and 6 have the best car shaders around (what makes car paint look like car paint and not plastic) and model workflow (adaptive tessellation is the way forward, and from here on out model quality is simply a slider that can be adjusted based on available processing power), so technically PD is ahead, and with those two points being far and away the most important, it's not likely to change.

Engine, boot and door hinges are all extremely simple in comparison, because it either carbon fiber covers (simple geometry I could make in my sleep), a load of floating geometry (again, very simple to make), or simple mechanisms (not very hard).

And laser scanning isn't the simple method of making/updating tracks you're making it out to be. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done - it's not like they scan the track and just put that on the disc like you seem to think.

We are talking about two generations from now. That is what "future proof" means.

While I agree in some points, including what I wrote before on this post, it has to be said PD isn't really ahead the rest in any aspect. Again, it's a matter of trying out other games and sims instead of sticking to what PD can deliver (once every 10 years). The only aspect in which it competes with the rest are premium cars, but doesn't mean it is ahead nor that they look better in-game than others.
 
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In some years "Autovista"/DriveClub and related features (drivers using the actual buttons and whatnot) will be the standard, therefore GT5/GT6's premium cars will be ... "standard" (very old) once again. Still, that shouldn't mean re-making cars from scratch so it isn't that bad.

Now, the problem on this is the damage model, an aspect in which PD lags behind several years. That requires a ton of effort for each car, which is what Turn10 is going and what PD isn't. If they don't we'll still see how awful it is even in 10 years (shockingly enough it's been 10 already), when the damage model of other games will be way more advanced.

About tracks, have you tried iRacing? There's absolutely nothing like it track-wise, not even close. Now compare GT5's (and Silverstone) to them and you'll see that once the industry standard is set to be laser scanning then PD's GT5/GT6's premium tracks will be ... you guessed it, and that requires re-making all those tracks from scratch, including going to the location.

All that means a good portion of the 10 years old job from PD is not future proof.


You seem to think that the models used in Autovista are the same ones used while driving and they are not. You also seem to be forgetting that FM5 and Driveclub are on much newer and more powerful hardware. On top of that, even GT5 is a much bigger game than either of those which puts a larger strain on the console. You're also assuming that the models won't change when the next GT comes along for the PS4, which I don't think is accurate.

I don't see why it matters of other games have this feature. I think most people who play more realistic driving games like GT would rather them continue to improve on things like the physics and AI than spend the time and resources on an "autovista" type feature. Would something like it be cool for photomode? Sure, and we'll probably get the ability to open doors and hoods at some point down the line. But it's hardly a must have feature. The most extra "stuff" they add to the game the farther they get from the driving and I for one care about nothing more than the driving which IS the thing GT does better than any game on console.
 
In some years "Autovista"/DriveClub and related features (drivers using the actual buttons and whatnot) will be the standard, therefore GT5/GT6's premium cars will be ... "standard" (very old) once again. Still, that shouldn't mean re-making cars from scratch so it isn't that bad.

Now, the problem on this is the damage model, an aspect in which PD lags behind several years. That requires a ton of effort for each car, which is what Turn10 is going and what PD isn't. If they don't we'll still see how awful it is even in 10 years (shockingly enough it's been 10 already), when the damage model of other games will be way more advanced.

About tracks, have you tried iRacing? There's absolutely nothing like it track-wise, not even close. Now compare GT5's (and Silverstone) to them and you'll see that once the industry standard is set to be laser scanning then PD's GT5/GT6's premium tracks will be ... you guessed it, and that requires re-making all those tracks from scratch, including going to the location.

All that means a good portion of the 10 years old job from PD is not future proof.




We are talking about two generations from now. That is what "future proof" means.

While I agree in some points, including what I wrote before on this post, it has to be said PD isn't really ahead the rest in any aspect. Again, it's a matter of trying out other games and sims instead of sticking to what PD can deliver (once every 10 years). The only aspect in which it competes with the rest are premium cars, but doesn't mean it is ahead nor that they look better in-game than others.

No. No, everything, no.

Two generations (I assume 'gaming generations') is about 15+years from now, assuming this and the next one last 7-8 years.

Mark my words, absolutely no in-game asset from today is going to be deemed as Good for the 10th generation of consoles / that year's PC's. However, certain methods, practices, workflows and current leads will DEFINITELY be a massive help.

Current damage models are the worst example of stop-gap tech. Often they're pre-computed (canned damage models), obviously at odds with the dynamic expectations of the future. The goal there will be procedurally-handled simulation - mesh will tessellate where needed, deform based on physics input and (ideally) accurately composed structure of the vehicle.

BeamNG is technically the most in-depth/futuristic 'consumer' game with damage, because it has that sort of damage. GTA 4 as well, (shame they toned it down in 5). GT5 has a very (very) primitive (in the future we'll say it's almost barbaric) type of that damage as well. It's not the greatest by any stretch of the word, but that IS the way damage will be handled in the future.

Think of it like this, whereas others have developed some decent canned solutions, that method is a dead end, sooner or later. And before anybody starts anything about material-based physics, look at the recent hoo-ha about physically accurate material rendering that'll (hopefully) become mainstream these next 5 years. It's really getting that serious, and that's a very good thing.

Again, with the laser-scanning. Re-read please - there's bottlenecks, and to some degree there always will be, and they're almost all AFTER you have the point cloud ready.



DarthMosco, the 250k v 500k thing, don't think about it like it's black and white too much. The PS3's main strength, in the right hands, was absurd poly counts in the right situations.

More to the point, the cars themselves have a bigger difference on poly count. A Volvo wagon from the 1970's would only cost about 20% of the polygons as a Ferrari FXX or 458 or something.

For Every curve, every change in radius, every bevel or fillet or panel or seam, that burns polygons, and it compounds on itself, too. Veyrons and Koenigseggs are generally pretty easy on polygons, because they're a (RELATIVELY) simple, smooth shape/shapes. Compared to a Lotus Elise (the 2nd gen) or something else both complex and curvy, there's a massive difference.
 
No. No, everything, no.

Two generations (I assume 'gaming generations') is about 15+years from now, assuming this and the next one last 7-8 years.

Mark my words, absolutely no in-game asset from today is going to be deemed as Good for the 10th generation of consoles / that year's PC's. However, certain methods, practices, workflows and current leads will DEFINITELY be a massive help.

I've heard that one before :P
 
Read a few post but i have to say, to create a proper next gen photo mode as ot looks like there keeping it is to model everything. Surely nowadays tech is so far ahead that augmented reality isnt far off so how hard would it be to kit out a large room with thousands of cameras to scan every nut and bolt using high pixel cameras. If kinect can find your finger up your nose then a hefty investment could cut down scanning.
 
If Kaz is really future-proofing the premiums like he said, then they are already modeling the engine bay, the trunk, and so on. I'd model only the exterior and interior, I'd put a generic underside, a couple generic engine bay for V6 to V12 and inline 4 to 10, and then model as many car as possible and get on with it already. Looking at the museum in GT5 was quite frustrating to see all the cars that ain't in the game because they are being anal about the whole process.
 
This poll is odd as it has no option for they already do model all of that. GT5 models are all oversampled, look it up if you have no idea what it means. Kaz talked about how they took data for cars and courses at a very high level so they wouldn't have to go back and rescan it in a few years(like Turn10 is doing for Forza 5) Hence why GT5 had such a tiny amount of highly detailed cars to begin with. PS3 isn't capable of showing these cars in the state that PD recorded them in so they just down sample until it fits. Same with courses except for Laguna Seca I have no idea how you can down sample that and come up with that terrible looking surrounding area horrid. GT6 is coming out 3 years after GT5 and it seems that the bulk of PD's time is spent collecting data for courses. We have 8 new courses all winth weather and dynamic time aside from the GT autodrome or whatever it's called and some tracks from GT5 upgraded with dynamic time and weather.
Futureproof, I have reason to believe that they already have the data ready for GT7, just need to acquire licenses for that game to ensure that we get to keep every sexy piece of machinery in GT7. I hurt because we lost the Jensen Inteceptor III in GT6. Sweet car dude, sweet car...I was half expecting to tune it up to look like Letty's car from Furious 6 if they redid it. Out the window on that one.
Now PD can be get the now defunct Ascari KZ1 in here, since we have it's home track. Please!
 
I think that the Autovista is one of the ( few ) areas where Forza has now surpassed Gran Turismo, & I really wish something comparable could be in GT7, since it almost certainly won't make GT6. Finally having a detailed cockpit view to drive from is what made GT5 worth buying for me. The next logical step is opening doors, hoods, detailed engines, etc.

I agree that engine sounds & other details are more important but calling the Autovista useless or a gimmick? C'mon! What's useless is having something like 1000 cars if half of them are boring econo-wagons or family cars &/or have no interior modeling for driving from or to look at!

I say cut way down on the list of cars by choosing true sports & performance cars only, get the sounds right ( at long last..... ), model the cars to an incredibly high standard that includes engine bays, under the car, everything, & then give us a garage feature that enables us to admire all of it. GT already has the superior driving feel and other trump cards like weather & day/night cycles, it needs little improvement. So Autovista is perhaps the one thing that Turn 10 has given its fans that Gran Turismo fans really don't have.
 
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Not sure why you need to look at a car for a few minutes as a mode in a game, I mean I haven't touched forza 4's autovista mode for some time, it's a bit pointless really. If they had something similar in GT that would look really silly.
 
If PD is smart they will keep the car count for GT7 under a couple of hundreds like T10 does now, so they can focus on making a truly next gen game. And truly next gen means "yes, they should make all the car models as detailed and complete as T10 can".

Also it's not only the engine bay in autovista, the trunk, the interior, working doors practically everything is modelled.

I surely hope not! I hope PD keeps the car count to at least 1000 minimum. Variety is the spice of life. That said, I much rather have different unique cars from different countries than say 10+ RX7, 10+ Honda NSX, 50+ Nissans, etc.
 
Not sure why you need to look at a car for a few minutes as a mode in a game, I mean I haven't touched forza 4's autovista mode for some time, it's a bit pointless really. If they had something similar in GT that would look really silly.

I heard a lot of people really enjoy Photomode.
 
I think the Turn 10 did a misstep and should drop the Forzavista completely. All the additional space wasted for that mode could have allowed features and or cars/tracks to come back. We shall see what Turn 10 does from here on out.
 
I surely hope not! I hope PD keeps the car count to at least 1000 minimum. Variety is the spice of life. That said, I much rather have different unique cars from different countries than say 10+ RX7, 10+ Honda NSX, 50+ Nissans, etc.
It's gonna take a loooooot of resources away from them if they would have to premium-ize 700- 800 cars. They just can't do that and focus on making a next gen experience with exciting races at the same time.

For some people having a car library is the main attraction i can understand, but i'd prefer they focus on blowing me away with the gaming/ racing experience.
 
No. It would be a neat feature but there are dozens of more important things I'd prefer PD spend their time on.
 
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