Do you believe in God?

[Pyle_PMG]

He was using Jews as a scapegoat for the devastation upon Germany during the First World War and the years after it. Plus, for a while he had nothing and the Jews he observed appeared to be rolling in money.

Which some were.

Point is, Germany was an economic mess. Hitler was a man who vowed to fix it and spoke up. Its not like the Germans had a better choice.

We could say Hitler's order of the extermination of 6 million Jewish people was caused by jealousy. Nothing to do with belief in God.

 

[TankAss95]

could say Hitler's order of the extermination of 6 million Jewish people was caused by jealousy. Nothing to do with belief in God.

I could say the exact thing about the crusades. Maybe it was nothing to do with belief in God, but rather to acquire land.

What I'm trying to say that many bad things have been done with different views in the name of atheism, like in Christianity (or just theism in general). The common new atheist deny's this.

All I am asking is answers to the specific questions that I asked. When that has been done I will temporarily stop any further contributions of my own in this thread.

 

[berty1979]

Strittan
Sorry but that makes no sense. If he hated all religions he wouldn't attempt to erase just one of them.

It was the Jewish people (as in community) he hated I have never read that it was the Jewish faith he hated.

 

[PeterJB]

It was the Jewish people (as in community) he hated I have never read that it was the Jewish faith he hated.

He exterminated people that were Jews by faith and not race as well as those that were Jewish by race.

 

[berty1979]

Of course he did, why would he take the time to differentiate?
He had a lot of hate.

 

[TankAss95]

I have finally came to the conclusion that any points that I make in this whole discussion is becoming worthless, due to my current, obvious lack of knowledge in the many fields of studies that I am including in my arguments.
For this reason I will temporally discontinue and contributions in this thread until I have more substantial understanding. It seems to be that my contributions in this thread are not productive, but rather the opposite, and I apologise for that.
There are a few questions that I would like answered before I leave, though.
It seems to be that most atheists bring forward supporting a variety of ideas such as rationalism, empiricism, materialism, existentialism, and humanism (I am sure there would be more). Why do they continue such lines of thought when they have all been criticised for having major, inescapable flaws?
Why is it that they often say that religion is so dangerous, and outdated, when it has given us so much of the things that we enjoy in western civilisation today?
Why is it that they often say atheism (when I say atheism, I do not refer it to a religion, but rather view of the world) is totally logical, when it was the very thing that drove some of the prominent disasters of the 20th century?
I am by no means classing atheism as an evil view, but rather that many branches of that thought have been proven destructive, all while the common new atheist denies this?

^Could someone please comment on the individual views I have brought forward? Thanks.

 

[Strittan]

^Could someone please comment on the individual views I have brought forward? Thanks.

If you haven't noticed, people are already commenting on some of them.

Besides, how come everyone must be a good listener when you contribute something, but you refuse to listen to others?

 

[Sureboss]

Anyone going to point out that the Wehrmacht had Gott mitt uns on their belts?

*anticipates quote.

 

[Strittan]

Why is it that they often say that religion is so dangerous, and outdated, when it has given us so much of the things that we enjoy in western civilisation today?

Do you mind giving us examples of these things? Because I can't think of one.

I am by no means classing atheism as an evil view, but rather that many branches of that thought have been proven destructive, all while the common new atheist denies this?

Sorry but I fail to find anything about atheism to be destructive. Looks like you've confused atheism with satanism.

 

[berty1979]

Sureboss
Anyone going to point out that the Wehrmacht had Gott mitt uns on their belts?

Thats an awesome fact, I didnt know that 👍

TankAss95
I am by no means classing atheism as an evil view, but rather that many branches of that thought have been proven destructive, all while the common new atheist denies this?

Proven to be destructive by whom to whom?

 

[huskeR32]

If Hitler was an atheist, why would he hate the Jews? From what I've been told, Hitler was pissed at the Jews because the Jews killed Jesus. Maybe I've been told wrong though.

As far as I know most wars is a matter of "My God has a bigger penis than your God". That and USA's desperate need for oil drives most wars nowadays I'd say. The "war against terror" is just something the US government call it to hide the truth. At least that's what I think.

There were no Weapons of Mass Distruction, more like weapons of Mass Distraction .

This has nothing to do with the thread. If you want to have a U.S. bashing-session, that's certainly your right, but please start a separate thread about it, so I can exercise my ability to ignore it. I come into this thread to discuss the topic at hand. Thank you.

I could say the exact thing about the crusades. Maybe it was nothing to do with belief in God, but rather to acquire land.

What I'm trying to say that many bad things have been done with different views in the name of atheism, like in Christianity (or just theism in general). The common new atheist deny's this.

All I am asking is answers to the specific questions that I asked. When that has been done I will temporarily stop any further contributions of my own in this thread.

This has also been explained to you ad nauseam. If a person who is an atheist does something "bad," they didn't do it "in the name of atheism." If that same person was gay, would you say that they did that "bad" thing "in the name of gayness?" Of course not.

You CAN'T keep setting atheism equal to religions, and then arguing against it as if it's just an alternate religion to Christianity. Atheism IS NOT A BELIEF SYSTEM. People don't do anything "in the name of atheism." By the very definition of atheism, they're not doing anything at all, specifically not believing in any god. But it's not a belief system that a person bases their decisions on. An atheist doing a "bad" thing, is doing so "in the name of" something else. Their atheism is an unrelated part of their character.

 

[berty1979]

You CAN'T keep setting atheism equal to religions, and then arguing against it as if it's just an alternate religion to Christianity. Atheism IS NOT A BELIEF SYSTEM. People don't do anything "in the name of atheism." By the very definition of atheism, they're not doing anything at all, specifically not believing in any god. But it's not a belief system that a person bases their decisions on. An atheist doing a "bad" thing, is doing so "in the name of" something else. Their atheism is an unrelated part of their character.

Amen to this (see what I did there).

It is one of the best answers I have ever read!

 

[GT350GT]

There is one god, Touge

 

[TankAss95]

Do you mind giving us examples of these things? Because I can't think of one.

Christianity and nothing else is the ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights and democracy, along with the very benchmarks of western civilisation. Show me an atheistic society that has achieved such things.

Sorry but I fail to find anything about atheism to be destructive. Looks like you've confused atheism with satanism.

I didn't say that at all, I said that many views that stem from atheism have been destructive (especially in the 20th century). Take Marxism for example.
How could I have confused atheism with satanism? The two are almost opposites.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Christianity and nothing else is the ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights and democracy, along with the very benchmarks of western civilisation. Show me an atheistic society that has achieved such things.

No it really, really isn't. Seriously tankass. Are you honestly saying that christianity invented conscience? I fail to see how it has contributed significantly in all the other things you mentioned as well.

I would say rationality is one of the most fundamental aspects of those thibngs listed, and rationality has nothing to do with religion.

I'm genuinely interested how you came to that conclusion. Please explain.

 

[Strittan]

Christianity and nothing else is the ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights and democracy, along with the very benchmarks of western civilisation. Show me an atheistic society that has achieved such things.

I need to look no further than in my own country. Sweden is one of the least religious countries in the world (along with the other Scandinavian countries) and at the same time we are one of the most equal countries in the world, both when it comes to income as well as equality between the sexes. We also have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Oh and we've not been at war for over 200 years.

Did I answer your question?

 

[Hun200kmh]

I need to look no further than in my own country. Sweden is one of the least religious countries in the world (along with the other Scandinavian countries) and at the same time we are one of the most equal countries in the world, both when it comes to income as well as equality between the sexes. We also have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

Did I answer your question?

I agree with TankAss here, and I don't think you answered any question. The entire western civilization system of values is based, wether you like it or not, in the foundations of christianism. And these foundations, set when the barbaric peoples of Europe were still far from reaching them, molded what Europe is today. I'm talking about the basic equality and dignity of men, that christians consider above and beyond man itself (because it's equality and dignity before God, not before human societies and powers that be, have been or will be).

This foundation endured, and endured and endured, against all and everything, even against the church's dignitaries that were just other men, born and raised in the societies they belonged to. But they could never, would never, dare to change their own religion and what was considered most sacred in it.

So I also think that it was christianism's firm belief in the supranatural dignity of man that made our societies what they are today. Of course, in Sweden it's probably easy to say otherwise based on the swedish XXIst society. However, it'll take about another XX centuries to understand what the lack of belief in the Divine nature of mankind, or - saying the same in another way - in the existence of the human soul (and all that such a belief implies) will do to the swedes.

 

[Strittan]

So I also think that it was christianism's firm belief in the supranatural dignity of man that made our societies what they are today.

Maybe you're right, maybe not. I don't know.

What I do know is that I don't need any belief in order to be happy and live a enjoyable life.

However, it'll take about another XX centuries to understand what the lack of belief in the Divine nature of mankind, or - saying the same in another way - in the existence of the human soul (and all that such a belief implies) will do to the swedes.

So, if I understand you correctly you think the lack of belief will do bad to us. Well, I disagree.

 

[berty1979]

Hun200kmh
The entire western civilization system of values is based, wether you like it or not, in the foundations of christianism. And these foundations, set when the barbaric peoples of Europe were still far from reaching them, molded what Europe is today. I'm talking about the basic equality and dignity of men, that christians consider above and beyond man itself (because it's equality and dignity before God, not before human societies and powers that be, have been or will be).

The barbaric peoples that you speak of had their own values and gods. Who is to say they were wrong? They were persecuted for their beliefs and christianity is only a step in human evolution rather than being the 'one' true religion.
The original question was if you believe in god or not and in my opinion god and religion are often very different things.

 

[huskeR32]

I agree with TankAss here, and I don't think you answered any question. The entire western civilization system of values is based, wether you like it or not, in the foundations of christianism. And these foundations, set when the barbaric peoples of Europe were still far from reaching them, molded what Europe is today. I'm talking about the basic equality and dignity of men, that christians consider above and beyond man itself (because it's equality and dignity before God, not before human societies and powers that be, have been or will be).

This foundation endured, and endured and endured, against all and everything, even against the church's dignitaries that were just other men, born and raised in the societies they belonged to. But they could never, would never, dare to change their own religion and what was considered most sacred in it.

So I also think that it was christianism's firm belief in the supranatural dignity of man that made our societies what they are today. Of course, in Sweden it's probably easy to say otherwise based on the swedish XXIst society. However, it'll take about another XX centuries to understand what the lack of belief in the Divine nature of mankind, or - saying the same in another way - in the existence of the human soul (and all that such a belief implies) will do to the swedes.

Unfortunately, history is littered with examples of christians ignoring these equalities. Killing, raping and plundering in the name of Christ. I'm still not sold on the prospect of giving that credit for the good in mankind.

 

[Hun200kmh]

So, if I understand you correctly you think the lack of belief will do bad to us. Well, I disagree.

I honestly don't know. I think it is troubling to think of humans as nothing more than a bunch of cells. Because that indeed shakens the entire building. Of course, at first you start to dismiss the most notorious expendables (embryos through abortion, old hopelessly ill people through euthanasya). That's already pretty much common, peacefully accepted practise (abortion) or quickly becoming (euthanasya). It is my belief that a civilization following that route will have no logical, rational, problem with less "limit" situations and therefore will sooner or later have no moral, and then no legal, issue with the "disposal" of humans that have zero usefulness to society or apparent purpose in life.

But again, that's just guessing. And not entirely God-related.

The barbaric peoples that you speak of had their own values and gods. Who is to say they were wrong? They were persecuted for their beliefs and christianity is only a step in human evolution rather than being the 'one' true religion.
The original question was if you believe in god or not and in my opinion god and religion are often very different things.

I entirely agree that God and religion are entirely separate concepts. Religion is just the way we try to understand or to reach God. And any "religious organization" is only a human organization of people that get together and organize themselves because of a common belief and a common way of trying to live that belief. Not that different from any other form of human organization really.

About the gods that all peoples in Europe had (even the romans, religiously as barbaric as any other of the european peoples) sure they provided values but I am to say they were wrong. And you are to say I am wrong. Because you must have a stand, as I have a stand. If everything and anything is equal, has the same value, then everything and anything has no value at all also. We must have opinions and a value system, we all must have our "rights" and wrongs", or else we will be nothing but a empty shell of a person.


EDIT to add this

Unfortunately, history is littered with examples of christians ignoring these equalities. Killing, raping and plundering in the name of Christ. I'm still not sold on the prospect of giving that credit for the good in mankind.

True, true, as it is true that History is littered with examples of Christians defending these values, and dying for it. We have a saying in my country about a glass of water half filled being also a glass of water half empty. See it as you like

 

[huskeR32]

True, true, as it is true that History is littered with examples of Christians defending these values, and dying for it. We have a saying in my country about a glass of water half filled being also a glass of water half empty. See it as you like

Yeah, but the point you're missing is that what you admit as true completely shoots down your idea that religion (specifically christianity) is the obvious source of all of humankind's goodness, morality or whatever.

As something that so utterly failed at upholding or promoting human equality for much of it's existence, christianity simply can't be the source of this equality or morality, as you previously claimed. It's a nice thought, but it doesn't hold water.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Yeah, but the point you're missing is that what you admit as true completely shoots down your idea that religion (specifically christianity) is the obvious source of all of humankind's goodness, morality or whatever.

As something that so utterly failed at upholding or promoting human equality for much of it's existence, christianity simply can't be the source of this equality or morality, as you previously claimed. It's a nice thought, but it doesn't hold water.

I don't think that all of mankind's goodness comes from religion and specifically christianity. Far from it, I'm a theist so if there's a source to name I would name God.

However, I stand by what I wrote. Christianity is based on the equality of all men and on their equal dignity, granted by God and impossible to be changed by man. Many human societies didn't like this, even within christianity, but there was no way around it ... in a few centuries maybe americans like you will think with horror about the death penalty, and blame it all on the christians, saying that "In God We Trust" was written in dollar bills (like someone a few posts above mentioned the german traditional army's motto, significantly different from the SS's one).

Will that mean anything? Some guy from the XXIVth century saying that the americans used to execute prisoners because they were christians will be accurate? Well, I think not, and more, that's what I think when I see people here digging out facts more than one thousand years old, or hundreds of years old, to blame it all on christianism.

 

[Strittan]

I honestly don't know. I think it is troubling to think of humans as nothing more than a bunch of cells. Because that indeed shakens the entire building. Of course, at first you start to dismiss the most notorious expendables (embryos through abortion, old hopelessly ill people through euthanasya). That's already pretty much common, peacefully accepted practise (abortion) or quickly becoming (euthanasya). It is my belief that a civilization following that route will have no logical, rational, problem with less "limit" situations and therefore will sooner or later have no moral, and then no legal, issue with the "disposal" of humans that have zero usefulness to society or apparent purpose in life.

But again, that's just guessing. And not entirely God-related.

Yeah, that's guessing alright. In my opinion moral has nothing to do with religion, but with personality. I personally think that my moral is greater than many religious people's, but that's a matter of opinion.

Saying life is not worth living just because there is no purpose in it is horse crap. Life is fun, and as an atheist I probably appreciate it more than many christians, who believe they'll go to heaven afterwards.

 

[CodeRedR51]

saying life is not worth living just because there is no purpose in it is horse crap. Life is fun, and as an atheist i probably appreciate it more than many christians, who believe they'll go to heaven afterwards.

+1

 

[Exorcet]

I have finally came to the conclusion that any points that I make in this whole discussion is becoming worthless, due to my current, obvious lack of knowledge in the many fields of studies that I am including in my arguments.
For this reason I will temporally discontinue and contributions in this thread until I have more substantial understanding. It seems to be that my contributions in this thread are not productive, but rather the opposite, and I apologise for that.
There are a few questions that I would like answered before I leave, though.
It seems to be that most atheists bring forward supporting a variety of ideas such as rationalism, empiricism, materialism, existentialism, and humanism (I am sure there would be more). Why do they continue such lines of thought when they have all been criticised for having major, inescapable flaws?
Why is it that they often say that religion is so dangerous, and outdated, when it has given us so much of the things that we enjoy in western civilisation today?
Why is it that they often say atheism (when I say atheism, I do not refer it to a religion, but rather view of the world) is totally logical, when it was the very thing that drove some of the prominent disasters of the 20th century?
I am by no means classing atheism as an evil view, but rather that many branches of that thought have been proven destructive, all while the common new atheist denies this?

The problem:

The complete doctrine of atheism:
There is no evidence for God

If atheism could speak, and if you asked if it was right to kill Jews it would answer "there is no evidence of a God"

If you asked if it approved of what you're doing it would answer "there is no evidence of a God"

If you brought made it part of the jury in a court and asked guilty or not guilty, it would answer "there is no evidence of a God"

Atheism is not a religion, a way of life, a philosophy, the theory of evolution, or anything close to those things. It's the lack in belief in God(s). You can't do anything in the name of atheism because it does not imply needing to do anything.

I agree with TankAss here, and I don't think you answered any question. The entire western civilization system of values is based, wether you like it or not, in the foundations of christianism. And these foundations, set when the barbaric peoples of Europe were still far from reaching them, molded what Europe is today. I'm talking about the basic equality and dignity of men, that christians consider above and beyond man itself (because it's equality and dignity before God, not before human societies and powers that be, have been or will be).

This foundation endured, and endured and endured, against all and everything, even against the church's dignitaries that were just other men, born and raised in the societies they belonged to. But they could never, would never, dare to change their own religion and what was considered most sacred in it.

So I also think that it was christianism's firm belief in the supranatural dignity of man that made our societies what they are today. Of course, in Sweden it's probably easy to say otherwise based on the swedish XXIst society. However, it'll take about another XX centuries to understand what the lack of belief in the Divine nature of mankind, or - saying the same in another way - in the existence of the human soul (and all that such a belief implies) will do to the swedes.

Greece.

 

[huskeR32]

The problem:

The complete doctrine of atheism:
There is no evidence for God

If atheism could speak, and if you asked if it was right to kill Jews it would answer "there is no evidence of a God"

If you asked if it approved of what you're doing it would answer "there is no evidence of a God"

If you brought made it part of the jury in a court and asked guilty or not guilty, it would answer "there is no evidence of a God"

Atheism is not a religion, a way of life, a philosophy, the theory of evolution, or anything close to those things. It's the lack in belief in God(s). You can't do anything in the name of atheism because it does not imply needing to do anything.

👍 times a thousand

 

[Recon]

Christianity and nothing else is the ultimate foundation of liberty, conscience, human rights and democracy, along with the very benchmarks of western civilisation. Show me an atheistic society that has achieved such things.

I don't believe anybody has answered this yet.

Well what your looking for is called science. Science has taught us everthing we know about everything. From biology to technology to astronomy, science is everywhere. No it won't teach morality or values, but thats not its job. My morality isn't based on anything but how I want to be treated, thats how I treat other people

 

[Pagey279]

There is no question religion has sculptured societies around the world, and it will continue to do so. But the question is do you believe in god, not what role religion itself has played.

Religion is simply the set of rules, or constraints that we have construed to be the will of God(s)

 

[theotherspongey]

I'm going to quote something from the first page that I believe
is true.

No, I don't believe in God. I think it is an outdated concept that civilisation has outgrown and no longer needs.