Do you believe in God?

[niky]

It doesn't go exactly like that

Yes it does.

Do you know how many wretches, murderers, thieves and the like have actually converted to Christianity. Truly and honestly converted? Jesus himself admitted those who have repented and converted.

Obviously, there are those who aren't sincere. But there are those who are. And then there are those who sin while wholeheartedly believing that what they do is holy.

Jesus qualified that Heaven is attainable only through belief, and that you merely have to repent your sins and actually believe in Heaven to get in. And when you're on Death Row, it's awfully easy to be really sorry...

 

[Zenith]

Since you don't believe in any kind of gates ... hardly worthy of discussion the justice system of those who do. Especially if your problem is the leniency of it

It's definitely worth a discussion.

The great thing about Christianity is that you can lie, cheat, and sin as much as you'd like and then use confession as a Get-Out-of-Hell Free card.

... Then you're free to go spout some nonsense as if you actually abide by a high moral code. The problem arises when Christians of this sort go out and interact with non-Christians in this manner.

EDIT: And is that Bill O'Reilly thing for real?

 

[PeterJB]

Oh dear. The Ichthys is probably supposed to represent the feeding of the five-thousand.

 

[Hun200kmh]

It's definitely worth a discussion.

The great thing about Christianity is that you can lie, cheat, and sin as much as you'd like and then use confession as a Get-Out-of-Hell Free card.

... Then you're free to go spout some nonsense as if you actually abide by a high moral code. The problem arises when Christians of this sort go out and interact with non-Christians in this manner.

EDIT: And is that Bill O'Reilly thing for real?

Spouting nonsense is exactly the problem here. I'm fine with people that don't believe in the existence of God. Some, though, try to talk down to believers, referring to what they say as "spouting nonsense". I used to get mad at this. Nowadays, however, maybe because I'm older and (I hope) wiser, I find it just funny, and of course I feel a bit for those atheists sitting on their high horses and doing themselves some nonsense-spouting.

In their lack of understanding about faith, some claim the belief in God is ridiculous because according to it God loves us but if we don't behave we will be sentenced to an eternity of suffering (I remember one atheist publishing in this thread a YT clip with George Carlin making fun of Christians because of that).

Some, however, go the other way and say the belief in God is ridiculous because according to it God is just but it only takes a last minute confession to solve all problems and get access to an eternity in Heaven.

I say ... whatever, and I say again, all of that is a very interesting discussion between christians or believers in any other faith that supports the belief in any kind of after-life. However, what's there to discuss with people that think that physical death is the end? They'll think whatever interesting discussion about what happens after will only result in some wild unprovable theories and ultimately in the spouting of nonsense.

Hardly worth discussing then.

 

[PAWEL17]

I like to believe in what was said in Men in Black.

It's definitely worth a discussion.

The great thing about Christianity is that you can lie, cheat, and sin as much as you'd like and then use confession as a Get-Out-of-Hell Free card.

... Then you're free to go spout some nonsense as if you actually abide by a high moral code. The problem arises when Christians of this sort go out and interact with non-Christians in this manner.

EDIT: And is that Bill O'Reilly thing for real?

Yes, but growing up, you are taught not to do those things, you are not taught that it is a jail-free card, but rather, as to apologize for the mistakes you make, because we are human, and we are very flawed.

 

[BobK]

So you people are saying that Mahatma Gandhi (for example) will burn in Hell forever for the unspeakable crime of not being a Christian, and therefore not converting anybody to Christianity.

Riiiiiiight.

 

[niky]

Yes, but growing up, you are taught not to do those things, you are not taught that it is a jail-free card, but rather, as to apologize for the mistakes you make, because we are human, and we are very flawed.

The problem is... it is.

I grew up Catholic. And basically, you do what you do. Do something bad, get loaded down with a butt-load of guilt... what do you do? Make up for it? Come clean?

No. You unload your guilt on the nearest priest. And by law, even if you confess to mass murder, he can't turn you in.

I'm not saying that people do this necessarily... willfully... in order to be immoral... but eventually you can grow up with the mentality that if you make a mistake, you can assuage your guilt simply by confession to God, and your place in Heaven is still assured.

And let's not forget what I've posted. When asked about a man's good works, Jesus said that one cannot merit the Kingdom of Heaven, but only through belief alone shall he be saved. In other words, you don't even have to perform good deads to go to Heaven, you just have to want it hard enough.

Personally (and I'm not saying I'm a completely good person), I believe it's better not to make a mistake at all. Before I grew out of it, I'd come to the conclusion that confession was basically a useless sacrament, and that I'd rather let God judge me on my own merits than trying to parlay a bargain ticket into heaven by being very sorry about every single little thing I've done and by pretending to believe in something I cannot.

Hardly worth discussing then.

Don't need to believe in God to believe in life after death or even reincarnation.

And the only proof we have for what happens to our consciousness after death is strange, subjective experiences of warm lights and out-of-body episodes from those who have been clinically dead for a few minutes. Whether it's the random firing of neurons suffering from lack of oxygen or a dreamlike construct created by our senses (talked about this about twenty or thirty pages back... I've actually experienced lucid dreams which were too realistic to separate from reality due to my medical condition), we don't know.

And an eternity of suffering isn't actually punishment for bad behavior... but for non-belief. Which means everyone in the world is going to hell. Because everybody is a non-believer for one religion or the other.

So you people are saying that Mahatma Gandhi (for example) will burn in Hell forever for the unspeakable crime of not being a Christian, and therefore not converting anybody to Christianity.

Riiiiiiight.

Which is why I can't bring myself to return to the fold. Any religion that tells me that great people such as Mahatma Gandhi and Suu Kyi are going to Hell is not exactly my cup of tea.

 

[Hun200kmh]

The problem is... it is.

I grew up Catholic. And basically, you do what you do. Do something bad, get loaded down with a butt-load of guilt... what do you do? Make up for it? Come clean?

No. You unload your guilt on the nearest priest. And by law, even if you confess to mass murder, he can't turn you in.

............


Which is why I can't bring myself to return to the fold. Any religion that tells me that great people such as Mahatma Gandhi and Suu Kyi are going to Hell is not exactly my cup of tea.

Niky, I don't know what the Catholic Chuirch is teaching where you live, but I find it very strange that you say such things. Let me explain:

1 - About the confession: I guess you forgot that part about confession being totally void if you don't fully regret (repent? not sure what word to use) the acts you confess, and if you aren't fully committed to avoid doing them again when again temptation comes. Makes all the difference. Of course, Only God knows if what you are saying is what you are thinking, so you can be praised by the entire Church (that believes you are a saint) and still end up in Hell or, at least, not in Heaven.


2 - About Ghandi: Do you not remember what catholics are taught about the greatest virtues? Faith, Hope, Charity (or Love)? You do know it is Charity the greatest of them all?

From here, and I didn't even check if this is a catholic site or not.

But the greatest of these is charity - Not because it is to "endure" the longest, but because it is the more important virtue; it exerts a wider influence; it is more necessary to the happiness of society; it overcomes more evils. It is the great principle which is to bind the universe in harmony, which unites God to his creatures, and his creatures to himself, and which binds and confederates all holy beings with each other. It is therefore more important, because it pertains to society to the great kingdom of which God is the head, and because it enters into the very conception of a holy and happy organization. Faith and hope rather pertain to individuals; love pertains to society, and is that without which the kingdom of God cannot stand. Individuals may be saved by faith and hope; but the whole immense kingdom of God depends on love. It is, therefore, of more importance than all other graces and endowments; more important than prophecy and miracles, and the gift of tongues and knowledge, because it will survive them all; more important than faith and hope, because, although it may co-exist with them, and though they all shall live forever, yet love enters into the very nature of the kingdom of God; binds society together; unites the Creator and the creature; and blends the interests of all the redeemed, and of the angels, and of God, into one.

I have no doubt about people like Gandhi being with God. And of many catholics, probably even "classified" by men as saints, being without Him.

 

[niky]

1 - About the confession: I guess you forgot that part about confession being totally void if you don't fully regret (repent? not sure what word to use) the acts you confess, and if you aren't fully committed to avoid doing them again when again temptation comes. Makes all the difference. Of course, Only God knows if what you are saying is what you are thinking, so you can be praised by the entire Church (that believes you are a saint) and still end up in Hell or, at least, not in Heaven.

Who says I did not fully regret things I have done? I know I did, and I know that, at the time, I had planned never to do them again. Which means that, if I died at the time, I would have been in Heaven (according to doctrine) despite the fact that when I didn't die, I committed those "sins" again.

Unfortunately, the "sin" of actually having the temerity to question religious dogma is pretty permanent.

2 - About Ghandi: Do you not remember what catholics are taught about the greatest virtues? Faith, Hope, Charity (or Love)? You do know it is Charity the greatest of them all?

...

I have no doubt about people like Gandhi being with God. And of many catholics, probably even "classified" by men as saints, being without Him.

I dare you to find even a single line of scripture that guarantees any non-believer a place in Catholic Heaven. Because there are a heck of a lot of lines of scripture that guarantee they won't.

-

So, three or four translations out of a dozen say the greatest is charity, but the rest say love? Of course, you know, that in many scriptures, faith is qualified as a pre-requisite for inclusion in Heaven?

The point is moot, as Gandhi doesn't believe in the Judaic God or even a single, monotheistic God, being Hindu, and Suu Kyi doesn't actually believe in a God at all, being Buddhist... meaning to say that neither would ever, ever, ever qualify for Heaven, because they outright reject God, and acceptance of his existence is a prerequisite for entrance therein.

 

[homeforsummer]

Personally (and I'm not saying I'm a completely good person), I believe it's better not to make a mistake at all. Before I grew out of it, I'd come to the conclusion that confession was basically a useless sacrament, and that I'd rather let God judge me on my own merits than trying to parlay a bargain ticket into heaven by being very sorry about every single little thing I've done and by pretending to believe in something I cannot.

👍

Pretty much word-for-word my thoughts on the subject. And given that I don't even need belief in God to try and be a good person, I can just get on with my life trying to make the right decisions rather than worrying about how I'm going to explain the bad ones.

 

[nitrorocks]

It's interesting on how most of the atheists on this thread know a lot about Christianity and catholics and such. You guys gave up on it I guess? You were once Christian/Catholic and something happened. God didn't help you or something? I just think its fear.

 

[Liquid]

It's interesting on how most of the atheists on this thread know a lot about Christianity and catholics and such. You guys gave up on it I guess? You were once Christian/Catholic and something happened. God didn't help you or something? I just think its fear.

Not really. We like researching our points of view so we can better argue them.

 

[niky]

It's interesting on how most of the atheists on this thread know a lot about Christianity and catholics and such. You guys gave up on it I guess? You were once Christian/Catholic and something happened. God didn't help you or something? I just think its fear.

Quite the opposite.

I was a believer in my early life because of fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of death. Fear of the afterlife. Fear that if I did one thing wrong, I would go straight down to the "Bad Place".

Oh, of course, I liked the idea of a loving God, and I adored Jesus as well as any Catholic school child can, but I grew older.

As I grew older, I began to see the contradictions between Church teachings and Church actions. I also began to question the reasons why we weren't allowed to question the reasons why.

You know how many times I've heard "God's will" in relation to someone dying, suffering or whatever, no matter how painful and stupid such events were?

You know the gross contradictions entailed in a religion that simultaneously tells you that pain and suffering in this life don't matter, for the righteous will go to Heaven, when someone is suffering... so such suffering is God's will... but will also declare that it's God's will when someone is healed or given blessings? Everything is justifiable by "God" this way, and nothing happens without his explicit acceptance.

You start to add things up, and when the score matches up better to blind chance than to divine intervention, you realize that that's what it is. Then you start meeting people of different faiths. Of different religions. People with no religions.

You start to think.

Who's right and who's wrong. When you've accepted that dogma doesn't equal truth, then you start to question all religions. Some people find solace in Buddhism this way, since it does not question whether or not there is a God and simply exists to fulfill your spiritual needs. Others worship the nature, or the cosmos, or simply peg their belief in a God, but not one on paper. (Einstein, Hawking) Others simply stop believing in Gods altogether, realizing that, since physical evidence for God the Alpha is emphatically negative, worshipping a distant and uncaring God the Omega is pointless.

-

As I've said previously, I don't believe that this is all there is. I don't actually believe that death is final. I accept physical, corporeal, electrical death, but I believe that existence is not just this. If I'm wrong, I won't be around to feel sorry for myself, anyway. If I'm right, then I know that I have absolutely no idea what is next... and I'm not going to pretend I do, unlike many billions upon billions of people before me.

Am I scared 🤬-less of death? Of course I am. But I no longer choose to let that fear control me.

Yes, it would be a pleasant surprise to find myself at the Pearly Gates. Of course, the Gardens of Paradise surrounded by virgins would be nice, too... since Catholic Heaven sounds like such a dull, celibate place. Not many great heavens to choose from... I don't know if I'd qualify for the halls of Valhalla, because my chances of dying on a field of battle are pretty low. Unless you regard the highway as one...

 

[nitrorocks]

Quite the opposite.

I was a believer in my early life because of fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of death. Fear of the afterlife. Fear that if I did one thing wrong, I would go straight down to the "Bad Place".

Oh, of course, I liked the idea of a loving God, and I adored Jesus as well as any Catholic school child can, but I grew older.

As I grew older, I began to see the contradictions between Church teachings and Church actions. I also began to question the reasons why we weren't allowed to question the reasons why.

You know how many times I've heard "God's will" in relation to someone dying, suffering or whatever, no matter how painful and stupid such events were?

You know the gross contradictions entailed in a religion that simultaneously tells you that pain and suffering in this life don't matter, for the righteous will go to Heaven, when someone is suffering... so such suffering is God's will... but will also declare that it's God's will when someone is healed or given blessings? Everything is justifiable by "God" this way, and nothing happens without his explicit acceptance.

You start to add things up, and when the score matches up better to blind chance than to divine intervention, you realize that that's what it is. Then you start meeting people of different faiths. Of different religions. People with no religions.

You start to think.

Who's right and who's wrong. When you've accepted that dogma doesn't equal truth, then you start to question all religions. Some people find solace in Buddhism this way, since it does not question whether or not there is a God and simply exists to fulfill your spiritual needs. Others worship the nature, or the cosmos, or simply peg their belief in a God, but not one on paper. (Einstein, Hawking) Others simply stop believing in Gods altogether, realizing that, since physical evidence for God the Alpha is emphatically negative, worshipping a distant and uncaring God the Omega is pointless.

-

As I've said previously, I don't believe that this is all there is. I don't actually believe that death is final. I accept physical, corporeal, electrical death, but I believe that existence is not just this. If I'm wrong, I won't be around to feel sorry for myself, anyway. If I'm right, then I know that I have absolutely no idea what is next... and I'm not going to pretend I do, unlike many billions upon billions of people before me.

Am I scared 🤬-less of death? Of course I am. But I no longer choose to let that fear control me.

Yes, it would be a pleasant surprise to find myself at the Pearly Gates. Of course, the Gardens of Paradise surrounded by virgins would be nice, too... since Catholic Heaven sounds like such a dull, celibate place. Not many great heavens to choose from... I don't know if I'd qualify for the halls of Valhalla, because my chances of dying on a field of battle are pretty low. Unless you regard the highway as one...

Haha. I was raised catholic and frankly I still am but I have been going to a Christian church for about 6-7 years. I still need to officially convert or be baptized. I never have liked the Catholic way that much compared to Christianity because you have to confess, catechism, communion, and it's just way more strict.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's interesting on how most of the atheists on this thread know a lot about Christianity and catholics and such. You guys gave up on it I guess? You were once Christian/Catholic and something happened. God didn't help you or something? I just think its fear.

No, I got to about five years old and realised the concept was about as realistic as Santa Claus and a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

I've been Christened so I'm technically a catholic, I've just long seen God and religion as fairly pointless to my existence.

Anyway, we've already established that it's fear that's responsible for belief in God, rather than disbelief.

 

[Liquid]

I've been Christened so I'm technically a catholic, I've just long seen God and religion as fairly pointless to my existence.

I was also christened against my will. Church Of Wales. But like you, I just... don't accept it.

 

[niky]

Be nice if there was a law against baptizing children against their will.

Tramples upon their freedom of (dis)belief and such... ...didn't stop our daughter from being baptized... but that's a matter of tact, deferring to the family faith...

Granted, my Mother is already disappointed that I was baptized a Catholic. Seeing as how every other Catholic sermon we heard together in my childhood was spent telling the congregation that all Protestants are going to hell...

 

[nitrorocks]

I was when I was little, but the children don't know any better. So I don't care. I don't remember when I was baptized

 

[CodeRedR51]

No, I got to about five years old and realised the concept was about as realistic as Santa Claus and a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

I've been Christened so I'm technically a catholic, I've just long seen God and religion as fairly pointless to my existence.

👍

 

[homeforsummer]

I was when I was little, but the children don't know any better. So I don't care. I don't remember when I was baptized

This, to be honest. Neither of my parents is religious, so I suspect they got me baptised either to appease my grandparents, or to help get me into the local school...

 

[nitrorocks]

This, to be honest. Neither of my parents is religious, so I suspect they got me baptised either to appease my grandparents, or to help get me into the local school...

I did go to a catholic school for a few years

 

[Hun200kmh]

Granted, my Mother is already disappointed that I was baptized a Catholic. Seeing as how every other Catholic sermon we heard together in my childhood was spent telling the congregation that all Protestants are going to hell...

It was a strange catholic church, the one you attended ...

 

[dylansan]

When I was baptized, I peed in the water. Wonder it that's a sign...

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'd say it definitely was ...

 

[nitrorocks]

I'd say it definitely was ...

X2

 

[niky]

It was a strange catholic church, the one you attended ...

Why? Are you a Roman Catholic? Did you go to a dyed-in-the-wool Catholic school for thirteen years? At least ours was somewhat progressive. The church we went to, not so much.

And the only strange thing about the service is that my mother, being a Protestant, actually made herself suffer to sit through it, just so we could go as a family.

-

When you have several Christian sects battling each other for devotees, they do tend to fight with each other.

A lot.

Most people don't hear that part. You don't go into a Catholic service unless you're a Catholic. You don't go into a Lutheran/Anglican/LDS service unless you're a Lutheran/Anglican/LDSer. Etcetera. Not all priests/imams/whatever do this, but many take digs at other religious sects and groups all the time.

If you've never gone to another church or attended a service that's not your own, you won't know or notice this, really. You accept that bias against other groups as part of the background of your religious culture, without ever thinking about it.

Mind you, not all Christian sects or even Catholic priests are like this... but then, by virtue of sheer cultural inertia, Catholicism is one of the more fundamentalist of Christian groups. Even moreso now with Ratzinger as Pope, as he's a throwback compared to to John Paul the Second.

 

[superbike81]

Maybe it's just all the college level writing classes I've done, but I cringe every time I see someone capitalize the word "him" or "he" in the middle of a sentence. Even if i did believe in God I think I would refuse to capitalize a pronoun in mid-sentence.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Yes I am a Catholic, and although I never studied in a catholic school I have been, all my life, paying attention to what the Catholic Church says. Because I am what you might call a "critic" of many things I find to deserve critic.

But I can tell you this, never, and I mean NEVER, I read or heard a catholic priest, bishop or Pope, say this:

... all Protestants are going to hell...

So, if you heard this in every other sermon ... it's a pretty strange catholic church, the one you know.

Hey superbike81, I also cringe at the capitalized "I" you guys use.

 

[nitrorocks]

Yes I am a Catholic, and although I never studied in a catholic school I have been, all my life, paying attention to what the Catholic Church says. Because I am what you might call a "critic" of many things I find to deserve critic.

But I can tell you this, never, and I mean NEVER, I read or heard a catholic priest, bishop or Pope, say this:

So, if you heard this in every other sermon ... it's a pretty strange catholic church, the one you know.

Hey superbike81, I also cringe at the capitalized "I" you guys use.

👍 and the church Niky goes to was probably in Ireland

 

[Exorcet]

But I can tell you this, never, and I mean NEVER, I read or heard a catholic priest, bishop or Pope, say this:

Neither have I, but I suspect that it's only because I wasn't around when the Catholic church would say that outright.

The Catholic Church definitely considers itself the best faith however, I can assure you of that. They never missed an opportunity when a comparison was brought up to list why Catholicism is better than xxx and how it will help you get into heaven more easily. It's basically the same thing niky is talking about, only more politically correct I guess.