Do you believe in God?

[PR1VATEJ0KER]

God doesn't do anything about the wars, poverty or other unjust things there are in the world either. It's us who've been given responsibility over ourselves.

I think you are trying to rationalize contradictions.
The bible was written by guys with a narrower world-view than anyone you know,
I think it really does show that there is no loving God behind it.

It is based on the morals/beliefs of ~100AD. Condoning Slavery and outlining how a human sacrifice is all we need to save ourselves.

As much religion is brainwashing and madness, it helps to keep the order in the world, or at least the current status quo.

I really do think we can be moral without religion.
There aren't many people following all the bible's moral concepts today, because they really are outdated.

 

[Quackjack29]

Does anyone else do this: when reading this stuff?

Yes, first time I lauged out loud in two days.

So I can donate to charity, serve in the army for years, build houses and give food to the poor, become president, lead our country into a golden age, but if I don't believe in sky-wizard, I will burn forever.

HOWEVER,
Adolf Hitler could've repented at the last second and go to eternal paradise.

Such a just and moral guy, that God.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

All this thread has turned into is Christian belief bashing.

I can never respond to comments like the one above. You have already accepted that there is no God, I get that. But why give theoretical examples in attempt to disprove something you already don't believe in? Are you trying to change the opinion of believers? Because that won't happen, just like if I gave you the proper answer I should, your opinion will most likely not change.

The title of the thread is, do you believe in God. Not "If you believe in God you must be retarded here's why".

 

[Quackjack29]

All this thread has turned into is Christian belief bashing.

I can never respond to comments like the one above. You have already accepted that there is no God, I get that. But why give theoretical examples to disprove something you already don't believe in? Are you trying to change the opinion of believers? Because that won't happen, just like if I gave you the proper answer I should, your opinion will most likely not change.

The title of the thread is, do you believe in God. Not "If you believe in God you must be retarded here's why".

I get it. So they can prance around saying LOL UR GONNA BURN IN HELL HAHAHA, but if we so dare say their belief is foolish, we're being rude. Ah ok sure.

 

[XoravaX]

I think you are trying to rationalize contradictions.
The bible was written by guys with a narrower world-view than anyone you know,
I think it really does show that there is no loving God behind it.

It is based on the morals/beliefs of ~100AD. Condoning Slavery and outlining how a human sacrifice is all we need to save ourselves.


I really do think we can be moral without religion.
There aren't many people following all the bible's moral concepts today, because they really are outdated.

Indeed, some of the ethics in the Bible are outdated, the Old Testament more than the New Testament. There is a drastic change in God's supposed personality between these two, as in OT God is cruel and unforgiving (while absolutely just; there are no unjust things like only some being granted eternal life), but in NT forgiving and supposedly kind.

We can be moral without religion, but throwing religion away would cause massive tremble in Middle East and India, for example. Also, it would destroy a lot of world's culture similar to what happened in the Soviet Union and China, whose ancient cultures were completely wiped off. Culturally, the downfall of religion would be a huge disaster, the worst in the history of humankind, worse than the colonisation of the Americas which destroyed the indigenous cultures for good. Also, the current geopolitical situation and internal policies of some countries depend on religions, which would also cause tremble.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

I get it. So they can prance around saying LOL UR GONNA BURN IN HELL HAHAHA, but if we so dare say their belief is foolish, we're being rude. Ah ok sure.

Who is saying that exactly?

 

[Quackjack29]

Who is saying that exactly?

Really? Im not even going to answer this.

 

[Kenno205GTi6]

I think there was a God at some point, but we are all Gods now!

 

[Exorcet]

We can be moral without religion, but throwing religion away would cause massive tremble in Middle East and India, for example. Also, it would destroy a lot of world's culture similar to what happened in the Soviet Union and China, whose ancient cultures were completely wiped off. Culturally, the downfall of religion would be a huge disaster, the worst in the history of humankind, worse than the colonisation of the Americas which destroyed the indigenous cultures for good. Also, the current geopolitical situation and internal policies of some countries depend on religions, which would also cause tremble.

What are you basing this on? This sounds more like someone invading those countries while religion is popular and then demanding that religion be suppressed completely, rather than religion being abandoned by the people willingly.

Remove religion from the Middle East and a whole host of problems should go away, or at least be mitigated. You couldn't convince people to blow themselves up in order to get into paradise because heathens have your holy land anymore.

In India, the caste system is destroyed and people have a better chance at leading happy lives.

There wouldn't be any damage to culture. Keep all the food, the customs, the songs. You could even keep Bibles and what not, they'd just be stories like Greek myths are today.

 

[ZohsixGT5]

Really? Im not even going to answer this.

Seriously, I have never heard a Christian tell a non-Christian that "you will burn in hell". Any Christian that says that to a non-believer needs to seriously evaluate himself.

 

[Brett]

I think there was a God at some point, but we are all Gods now!

So we are Immortals like this?

 

[Dennisch]

Freddy 👍

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Back up a second and actually realise what you said before throwing an accusation of overzelous and premature in my direction.

The point posed and you reaction was as follows:

You have clearly stated here that you have evidence that supports creationism.

Not exactly.
If I back up, I can only come to the same conclusion.

This is what I posted:

There is evidence, but only if you discern it as such.

Romans 1:20
Amplified Bible (AMP)

For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],

There is also the testimonies of countless numbers of people, some of which are in this thread.

And then this

Not so.
Here it is again:

Romans 1:20
Amplified Bible (AMP)

For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],


The wonders of the highly organised complexity and detailed function of Creation, reflects a unfathomable scale of intelligence and power involved to accomplish such a unimaginable concert of feats.

God declares that this is intelligibly discernable by man or evidentiary.
However, he also declares not all will deduce it as such

and this

To the contrary, since the evidence is intelligibly discernable, the Faith involved is not blind.

As it says, God is not visable but his handiworks are.

I guess you could call it, circumstantial evidence.

As such its more that relevant to the C vs E thread and were you to post that here it would drag this thread massively off topic, so from a moderation point of view my (polite) request was most certainly not overzelous or premature.

As I've already stated, it is just as relevant here as in the C vs E thread.

"Creation" is practically unseverable from "Belief in God", at least within the Biblical references.

You have already admitted they cross over and rightfully so.

Also I see no evidence whatsoever, that my posts have driven this thread "off topic" even in the slightest.

That being the case, IMO your fears are thus far, as I stated.

I do however once again note that rather that providing this evidence (in any thread) you have taken to distraction and personal digs. Well if that's that direction you wish to head in I would counter that what is overzelous and premature here are your claims of evidence to support creation (and the Bible and God are not evidence).

To the contrary, I can asure you there is nothing personal here, or intended for distraction purposes, at least on my side.

Maybe you do not realize, when you post with a Moderator label and include any suggestive overtones, it is not the same situation, as among others here.
You are posting from a position of authority, hence in this case, I deemed it necessary to reply and reply defensively.
I believe I was justified in doing so.
Personal has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps under the circumstances you should bounce it off some of your Superiors and see what they think.

 

[Zoom!Zoom!]

I think the roll eyes , is because quoting John the Baptist to a non-believer will likely not mean anything to that person.

It's one thing to say you don't believe in scripture. It's another to take verses out of context and making claims the scripture doesn't make.
For example someone claiming they don't believe Jesus rose from the dead is different than claiming the scriptures doesn't teach Jesus rose from the dead.
If atheist don't believe then why leave it at that.

So we have to wait until the Second Coming for our prayers regarding cancer to be heard? Where in scripture is that mentioned? Or do you regard cancer to be the devil's work, which will be undone when Christ removes all evil with his 2nd coming?

Anyway, it seems a bit harsh for those who suffer now and will die from cancer long before He returns, regardless of all their prayers.

It's clear in the NT the world has been judged and God has no plans of saving this "world". (a friend of the world is an enemy of God) Jesus told his disciples he would make them fishers of men and nothing about cleaning up the pond. He even warn his disciples they would suffer and even be put to death.
Revelation seems to deal with a lot of things that are harsh as John wrote it was very bitter to his stomach.

P.S I don't know cancer is direct the devil's work or just the results of nature slowly falling apart. It does mention in the NT of nature awaiting (groaning) for the coming of the Lord.

 

[Azuremen]

It's clear in the NT the world has been judged and God has no plans of saving this "world".

What a crap god, basically. And certainly not omnipotent if he can't save the world when he created it so easily.

I mean, really, you buy this stuff? And then disease being the work of the Devil when, again, there is supposedly an omnipotent God?

Yeah, I'll pass on the Kool-Aid, thank you very much.

 

[dylansan]

P.S I don't know cancer is direct the devil's work or just the results of nature slowly falling apart. It does mention in the NT of nature awaiting (groaning) for the coming of the Lord.

It's very likely neither. When the DNA in cells mutates, as it does sometimes, there are usually fail-safes in which the cell will kill itself or stop itself from multiplying, to avoid spreading the mutation. Some mutations affect the DNA responsible for the fail-safe. In such cases, the cell continues to multiply and the mutation spreads. Because there is nothing stopping the mutation, many more new mutations can be formed very quickly. This makes it very hard to treat, as there are so many different mutations that can occur. This is cancer, and it can be explained without invoking the devil or anything about "nature falling apart."

What does that mean, exactly, anyway? Can you explain the particular means by which nature is falling apart? Are you just talking about climate change? Entropy in general? If you just mean that humans can and do negatively affect the environment, you are correct, but that has nothing to do with the supernatural and there is no inherent evil required for it to take place.

 

[TheDrummingKING]

Seriously, I have never heard a Christian tell a non-Christian that "you will burn in hell". Any Christian that says that to a non-believer needs to seriously evaluate himself.

You just go check out youtube and facebook enough (or in the right places) and you'll see it quite a bit. His tone and how he said what he did was a bit rude, though.

 

[Famine]

Perhaps under the circumstances you should bounce it off some of your Superiors and see what they think.

We agree with Scaff.

If you have proof of Creation - proof that invalidates the decades of evidence for evolutionary theory - the ideal location for it is the thread that deals with creation and evolution.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

We agree with Scaff.

If you have proof of Creation - proof that invalidates the decades of evidence for evolutionary theory - the ideal location for it is the thread that deals with creation and evolution.

Whose we?

I have not contended that some of my posts here are not applicable over there.

Only that they are just as legitimately applicable here as well.
Are they not?

As you know, I am no stranger to either thread, and have likely already posted the same thing in the C vs E thread, at some point in the past.

At any rate, I may at some point, post the same references there but do not wish to pursue that at this time.

I fully understand Scaff's concerns, but as I pointed out, thus far, I see no indication my posts here have unduly influenced this thread off-topic.

Do you think it has?

 

[Famine]

Whose we?

Assuming you mean "who's", you asked for Scaff's "superiors" to give their opinion. In terms of forum rank, I'm a site administrator which is above Scaff's super moderator.

If you wish to demonstrate proof of Creation - proof that invalidates the decades of evidence for evolutionary theory - the ideal location for it is the thread that deals with creation and evolution.

If you wish to discuss moderation decisions, this is really not the place to do it.

I fully understand Scaff's concerns, but as I pointed out, thus far, I see no indication my posts here have unduly influenced this thread off-topic.

And Scaff's polite interjection was by way of preserving that. It didn't need discussing.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Assuming you mean "who's", you asked for Scaff's "superiors" to give their opinion. In terms of forum rank, I'm a site administrator which is above Scaff's super moderator.

If you wish to demonstrate proof of Creation - proof that invalidates the decades of evidence for evolutionary theory - the ideal location for it is the thread that deals with creation and evolution.

If you wish to discuss moderation decisions, this is really not the place to do it.

Sorry for the wording error, that answers my question.

I have no others in that regaurd.

And Scaff's polite interjection was by way of preserving that. It didn't need discussing.

Hmmm.......

OK Famine.
Out of respect for you, I'm willing to leave it at that.

 

[RalliArt/////]

So we have to wait until the Second Coming for our prayers regarding cancer to be heard? Where in scripture is that mentioned?

Let’s see what the bible says regarding these important questions, starting with prayer. (Make sure to read the scriptures mentioned for better understanding)

People “of all flesh” may come to the “Hearer of prayer,”(Ps 65:2, Ac 15:17)

Prayer must be genuine (Ps 119:145, Lamentations 3:41)

Are you doing God’s will? (1John 3:22, Psalms 10:17, Pr 15:8, 1Peter 3:12)

Jesus said to ‘keep on asking, seeking, and knocking,’ not giving up. (Lu 11:5-10; 18:1-7)

Is God slow to answer some prayers or is it his inability or lack of willingness? (Matthew 7:9-11, James 1:5, 17)

Sometimes the answer must await God’s ‘timetable.’ (Luke 18:7; 1Peter 5:6; 2Peter 3:9)

Related scriptures: John 14:6, 1John 5:14, 1Pet. 3:12, 1John 3:22, Acts 10:34,35, Matthew 7:21-23

Or do you regard cancer to be the devil's work, which will be undone when Christ removes all evil with his 2nd coming?

To sum it up briefly, human illness came about because Adam and Eve disobeyed God. If they had obeyed God, they would never have got sick or died. God clearly told Adam that continued enjoyment of what he had given them depended on obedience. But they didn’t listen, and they turned away from God. (Gen. 2:16, 17; 3:1-6) Because everyone today was born in sin, all of us experience suffering in various ways.
Related scriptures: (Gen. 8:21; Rom. 5:12 John 12:31 1John 5:19 Revelation 12:9 Gen. 2:15-17)

When will suffering end? Matthew 24:3-14, 21, 34, 36-39 2Timothy 3:1-5 2 Peter 3:11-13. Also compare: Matthew 6:9, 10 1Thessalonians 5:1-3, 6

Anyway, it seems a bit harsh for those who suffer now and will die from cancer long before He returns, regardless of all their prayers.

Acts 24:15: The apostle Paul says “and I have hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”Both those who lived in harmony with God’s righteous ways and people who, out of ignorance, did unrighteous things will be resurrected. Compare (Genesis 18:25)

John 5:28, 29 Jesus said: “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Jesus] and come out.

John 11:25-27. Jesus speaking to Martha about the resurrection: “He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. ( Jesus is not suggesting that faithful ones then alive will never die, but that exercising faith in him can lead to everlasting life.)

Romans 6:23 “For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Acts 17:30, 31 “True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent. Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”

1 Corinthians 15:21 The apostle Paul, as a witness of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, wrote: “Since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man.”

 

[Azuremen]

I like how all the "evidence" and "proof" comes from a book with dozens of translations into English, from different versions of it from the past 2000 years of copying and preserving it. Really don't see how it is anymore valid than me digging up Greek myths or Egyptian records...

 

[Dennisch]

I like it how it is "Greek myths", and the bible is real, and evidence. It is all the same, old fairytales.

 

[homeforsummer]

And "original sin" is still bollocks. Right, so some guy who didn't exist ate an apple and now we're all to pay for it.

For all the kids out there dying of cancer, or starvation, or being murdered by relatives, I don't think "this world is doomed anyway" and "you're inherently sinful" really cut it as an explanation.

Maybe someone who says that the bible isn't literal, and it should all be interpreted as metaphors, would like to explain to me exactly how original sin applies as a concept? And how, if at all, the deaths of the truly innocent (original sin tosh aside) can be justified?

 

[Watt2159]

I'm atheist, but if you've got religion, I won't run you down for it, just don't force it onto me.

 

[Exorcet]

To sum it up briefly, human illness came about because Adam and Eve disobeyed God. If they had obeyed God, they would never have got sick or died. God clearly told Adam that continued enjoyment of what he had given them depended on obedience. But they didn’t listen, and they turned away from God. (Gen. 2:16, 17; 3:1-6) Because everyone today was born in sin, all of us experience suffering in various ways.
Related scriptures: (Gen. 8:21; Rom. 5:12 John 12:31 1John 5:19 Revelation 12:9 Gen. 2:15-17)

So in other words, it's God fault for planting a forbidden tree, and then making said tree enticing.

Even if it's figurative, there is still a problem. A perfect god created imperfect beings (and the source of the downfall of his original plan) and was unable to correct these mistakes.

The Bible itself admits that God is not perfect which makes Christianity a contradiction.

 

[Dotini]

Maybe someone who says that the bible isn't literal, and it should all be interpreted as metaphors, would like to explain to me exactly how original sin applies as a concept? And how, if at all, the deaths of the truly innocent (original sin tosh aside) can be justified?

Many interpretations can be made of original sin. Some crazies out there might say it's about the human race being fallen due to its literal corruption by fallen angels, nephilim and watchers. We ate of the tree of knowledge and it was corrupt, kind of thing.

One possible allegorical interpretation that I occasionally entertain is that original sin and man's fallen state refers to humanity's evolution from primate to human at that point in time when human consciousness as we recognize it today was attained. Before full consciousness, we were feral animals, pure and unsullied with all the problems that consciousness brings. Afterward, fully human, we suffer from awareness and knowledge of such things as evil, pride, jealousy and all the painful thoughts and behavior that humans are uniquely heir to.

So in this sense, there can be no truly innocent, as all humans are now innately corrupted. Only a beast of nature - a feral animal - can be truly innocent.

 

[Denur]

@RalliArt///// Thank you for your thorough response. I've read the scriptures you mentioned (it's a Sunday morning, so why not). Some are related to this current topic, some are not (the way I understand them).

To sum it up:
1. One has to be a 'good' Christian for prayers to be heard and answered (makes sense).
2. That these prayers are to be answered in time to be of any use, may or may not happen. All depends on God's plans and time table. ( a bit of a lottery, really)
3. If you've lived your life as a 'good Christian' you will be resurrected from the dead and go to heaven, but not until He comes again. Which may be tomorrow, or the day after, or a bit later. With death comes an end to suffering and the suffering does not return when He comes back for the second time to take you along to Heaven.

Why bother praying at all, other than to acknowledge God and Jesus, if He appears to have everything planned ahead with a certain time table? You say that sometimes an answer to prayer has to await God's timetable. Why sometimes? When is one's prayer so important that is does not have to await His time table. Isn't that just bad planning on God's side?

 

[homeforsummer]

Before full consciousness, we were feral animals, pure and unsullied with all the problems that consciousness brings. Afterward, fully human, we suffer from awareness and knowledge of such things as evil, pride, jealousy and all the painful thoughts and behavior that humans are uniquely heir to.

Interesting. Gain intelligence, become sinful. An appropriately astute observation given how the pursuit of understanding how the world actually works is often seen as an affront to the bible's teachings.