Do you believe in God?
- Thread starter Patrik
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No. All religions were created by man, therefore all gods were created by man. Nothing I've seen leads me to think that anything "god-like" created the universe or multiverse or whatever. I'm sure that however it got started was purely natural for the conditions of the time. As to a first cause while it's definately hard to picture without it, doesn't mean it can't be true.
!!!Tangent alert!!! Food for thought.
Imagine making a bowl of jello. You gather the ingredients. You mix the water and gelatin. You place it in the fridge and 2hrs later... you got tasty cherry Jello. But do you care how the molecules mixed together? Would it be any different if molecule A bonded with molecule G instead of S? As long as the end result is jello... you're happy.
Science says our universe started 13.7 billion years ago. It will carry on for far, far longer.
Now let's say there is a God. A really nice God. And he has a plan. But he didn't start on it 13.7 billion years ago; he started 13.7 billion universal cycles ago. And his goal isn't a trillion years into he future, but a trillion universal cycles into the future. Does that give meaning to you? Make you feel warm and fuzzy that yes you're a part of God's plan? Even if it's as the scum on the edge of the bowl or the undissolved gelatin at the bottom that gets thrown away.
Does it matter. I don't think it does.
Meaning requires life. Life does not require meaning.
!!!Tangent alert!!! Food for thought.
Imagine making a bowl of jello. You gather the ingredients. You mix the water and gelatin. You place it in the fridge and 2hrs later... you got tasty cherry Jello. But do you care how the molecules mixed together? Would it be any different if molecule A bonded with molecule G instead of S? As long as the end result is jello... you're happy.
Science says our universe started 13.7 billion years ago. It will carry on for far, far longer.
Now let's say there is a God. A really nice God. And he has a plan. But he didn't start on it 13.7 billion years ago; he started 13.7 billion universal cycles ago. And his goal isn't a trillion years into he future, but a trillion universal cycles into the future. Does that give meaning to you? Make you feel warm and fuzzy that yes you're a part of God's plan? Even if it's as the scum on the edge of the bowl or the undissolved gelatin at the bottom that gets thrown away.
Does it matter. I don't think it does.
Meaning requires life. Life does not require meaning.
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The way I see it is...
This universe, or multiverse, was either a complete accident and over billions of years has lead to me sitting here typing on my keyboard pondering my own existence...or there is an intelligence behind creation.
The big bang (still only a theory) was either a spontaneous outburst of energy creating all the matter in the universe by accident or it was God clicking his fingers!
I tend to lean on the side of creation, that this physical universe was created by God(s) from another 'realm'.
Also we have to remember ,like others have said, that all religions were created by man, and then corrupted by man.
Jesus wasn't a Christian, Buddha wasn't a Buddhist, and Muhammad wasn't a Muslim.
One more thing that makes me believe there is an intelligence behind nature...stick insects!
How does nature know what a leaf or stick looks like so it can make an insect look exactly like a leaf or a stick?
Before you shout natural selection, it can't be possible for nature to experiment with the billions of variations of plant and insect to eventually land on a perfect match for the two. Or maybe it is!
If there is no God, then nature must be conscious without an intelligence, it must be able to be aware of everything and connected to everything (this has been proven on a quantum level), for me this is just as amazing!
I find it interesting that science is starting to prove what the mystics have been saying for thousands of years...
This universe, or multiverse, was either a complete accident and over billions of years has lead to me sitting here typing on my keyboard pondering my own existence...or there is an intelligence behind creation.
The big bang (still only a theory) was either a spontaneous outburst of energy creating all the matter in the universe by accident or it was God clicking his fingers!
I tend to lean on the side of creation, that this physical universe was created by God(s) from another 'realm'.
Also we have to remember ,like others have said, that all religions were created by man, and then corrupted by man.
Jesus wasn't a Christian, Buddha wasn't a Buddhist, and Muhammad wasn't a Muslim.
One more thing that makes me believe there is an intelligence behind nature...stick insects!
How does nature know what a leaf or stick looks like so it can make an insect look exactly like a leaf or a stick?
Before you shout natural selection, it can't be possible for nature to experiment with the billions of variations of plant and insect to eventually land on a perfect match for the two. Or maybe it is!
If there is no God, then nature must be conscious without an intelligence, it must be able to be aware of everything and connected to everything (this has been proven on a quantum level), for me this is just as amazing!
I find it interesting that science is starting to prove what the mystics have been saying for thousands of years...
Scaff
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Why can it not be possible for random variations to achieve this?
Just because the time-scales and/or number involved are too big for many to get their heads around doesn't make it impossible. In fact the evidence shows exactly that, down to evolutionary cycles in which they have gained and lost wings.
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Or... they were events with no intentional will. There is no 'accident'. There is no causal 'why' as to how or when these events took place.
Look up what theory actually means.
Wiki
Why do you err that way?
Yes for the former, the latter is somewhat irrelevant unless you're talking theocracy. And corrupting something fictional is somewhat of a misnomer.
Fine.
Slimmer, more slender, browner insects of that species survived. There is no selection in the sense of choosing a trait to be successful, it just is. This trait was passed on and on and on and on.
Call it coincidental if you want, it doesn't make it any less true.
I thought you erred on the side of creationism rather than abiogenisis?
You mean people who, at that time, would have been considered scientists have their theories proven true after thousands of years of religion suppressing and torturing those who say otherwise?
Yes, the ancient Greeks did pull some amazing things out of their backsides;
Earth - Solid
Water - Liquid
Air - Gas
Fire - Plasma
But even if they did believe in the Titans and Olympians, that does not detract from their research and quest for knowledge. In fact, as I've already said, religion has been the one ensuring that we have only been able to prove these things now.
We have known about heliocentrism for thousands of years, kind of a giveaway when there is a Greek word in there. But when some Italians and Poles try to spread this word to the ignorant public, the Church persecutes them with all the vile hatred you would expect from a theocracy. See: Gallileo vs. Rome
Churches don't like ignorant marks learning? Now this time, I don't think that can be considered a coincidence.
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O
Well they say given enough time monkeys with typewriters can write Shakespeare, maybe.
Gaining and loosing wings is one thing, but to look exactly like a stick?
Of course, evolution is a proven fact and it can be demonstrated, but when I think of all the variations and diversity of plants and also insects, what do you think the odds are that eventually a plant and insect can be so closely matched?
Why and how would nature try and make an insect look like a plant?
Not mention all other life forms that mimic plant life or even rocks!
The numbers and math are beyond my comprehension, but the sheer number of variables must be mind boggling!
Also when it comes to all natural camouflage, how does nature know? How many times has evolution changed the pattern of a tigers strips to match the long grass and make it blend in and invisible to it's prey?
Would it have had many different skin patterns before natural selection settled on stripes? What in nature selected stripes, what are tigers hunted by? Or did the tigers without stripes die out through starvation because it's prey saw it coming?
I just can't believe that nature can spontaneously start creating and evolving without an intelligence at it's core, what triggers it?
They say that the eyes we have today were evolved from a need to be aware of light and this lead to the complex organ we have today, that even the most sophisticated cameras can't match...amazing!
Like I said, with or without God(s), nature is one clever mother!
Well they say given enough time monkeys with typewriters can write Shakespeare, maybe.
Gaining and loosing wings is one thing, but to look exactly like a stick?
Of course, evolution is a proven fact and it can be demonstrated, but when I think of all the variations and diversity of plants and also insects, what do you think the odds are that eventually a plant and insect can be so closely matched?
Why and how would nature try and make an insect look like a plant?
Not mention all other life forms that mimic plant life or even rocks!
The numbers and math are beyond my comprehension, but the sheer number of variables must be mind boggling!
Also when it comes to all natural camouflage, how does nature know? How many times has evolution changed the pattern of a tigers strips to match the long grass and make it blend in and invisible to it's prey?
Would it have had many different skin patterns before natural selection settled on stripes? What in nature selected stripes, what are tigers hunted by? Or did the tigers without stripes die out through starvation because it's prey saw it coming?
I just can't believe that nature can spontaneously start creating and evolving without an intelligence at it's core, what triggers it?
They say that the eyes we have today were evolved from a need to be aware of light and this lead to the complex organ we have today, that even the most sophisticated cameras can't match...amazing!
Like I said, with or without God(s), nature is one clever mother!
Scaff
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The single biggest mistake you are making with this is the utterly incorrect assumption that 'nature' tried to make anything look like anything, its not planned.
An insect with a random genetic mutation that made it a bit closer in colour to a stick will not get eaten as much as those that on't have the same mutation (or have a mutation that happens to make it look less like the colour of a stick). As a result it survives and has a great chance of passing on said gene.
Nothing clever about it at all, and human eyes are actually rather poor in comparison to many other species and work better underwater than on land.
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I find it interesting that you (and many other people) have this need to pick a side, even if there's no real information either way.
The Big Bang is one of the best theories that fits the current information we have, but it's still chock full of stuff we don't know, and as far as I know the question of "so, why a Big Bang then?" is still largely up in the air.
It's OK for the answer to be "I don't know". There's nothing wrong with not knowing, and there's no requirement to pick sides between a beardy old bloke and cosmic firecrackers.
I think religion is in part an answer to a lot of people's fear of just not knowing. Children are generally OK with admitting their ignorance, but as adults I find that people tend to go to some extraordinary lengths to conceal their own ignorance, even if that ignorance is perfectly well founded.
Nobody is really expected to know the answers to life, the universe and everything, but nonetheless some people are so uncomfortable with the concept of not knowing that they'll come up with all sorts of stuff. Creation myths are an awesome example of this.
Me, I work as a scientist and so I think not knowing something is the greatest thing in the whole world. When I find something that I don't know, that's a great chance for me to learn something new. I get really excited when I think of questions I can't find an answer to. If nobody else knows either, then maybe I could learn something that could be useful to all the other people asking the same question as well.
For me, the question is the important part, not the answer.
Christ came to fulfill the Law but not to abolish the Law. What Christ did for Judaism is what Bruce Lee did to Martial Arts. Christ showed us the way to follow Gods rules without being boxed in by them in much the same way Bruce Lee showed us to fight without being stuck to one style.
In some ways Judaism and Christianity can be like following the rules of the Military, some rules are made for specific reasons, but other rules are so antiquated that they do not need need to be followed to the absolute T. Rules such as the requirement for animal sacrifices in Judaism are no longer possible because the Sacrifices can only be held in the Temple in Jerusalem, a temple that is no longer standing.
After all the rules and all the laws there is one Golden Rule that Christ taught, "Love one Another" in this way a Doctor can work on the Sabbath Day to save a life on a day of rest. Not saying that rest is not important, but in the Doctors case he is not sinning by working on a day of rest, and in modern times we have plenty of other doctors who still can have a Day off while a few still work on the Sabbath.
Scaff
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So basically you are acknowledging that god got it wrong and we can ignore him when needed? Doesn't seem very god like at all. Which then leads to the rather obvious question of who get to decide which bits god was wrong about, when we can ignore them etc and why that doesn't (for a theist) make god rather pointless?
As for only sacrifices taking place at one temple in Jerusalem, that's quite simply not validated by your own text:
At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT
Not only does this clearly show a burnt offering at a temple in Bethel (which is not in Jerusalem) but also strongly suggests that humans or human remains formed burnt offerings at times.
So once again we have you making up 'facts' in an attempt to justify a position, you have been repeatedly warned that this is not acceptable. I strongly suggest that you stop.
Dotini
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In principle, couldn't interfering aliens, with a civilization more advanced than ours by billions of years, be an acceptable explanation of the human notion of God? Legends and literature of several ancient human civilizations hint at such a possibility. In the popular media, this is known as the "Ancient Alien" theory.
If the complication of alien meddling in human history is even considered, wouldn't it also complicate the question of belief in God?
If the complication of alien meddling in human history is even considered, wouldn't it also complicate the question of belief in God?
Being a Christian is not acceptable??? Sorry I'm an American, we believe in the freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
So once again, Christ as God in the flesh gave us the Golden Rule, "Love one another." If you don't think that's Godly, If you don't think that's a good way to live your lives, I can only be disappointed you would disagree.
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Why do you persist in making this kind of rubbish up? Anyone with better than 3rd grade reading comprehension skills can see Scaff said nothing of the sort.
Of course the irony is that you've made up utter rubbish in response to Scaff telling you that making up rubbish isn't acceptable...
Scaff
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I'm going to make this quite simple. Either quote me saying that or retract the claim.
I didn't even come remotely close to even implying something of that nature and your repeated "make 🤬 up to try and prove a point" has got way past the point of being acceptable. So how about you read what is actually written (rather than making up what you think is written in your head) and actually answer some of the questions raised.
What I said was unacceptable is making things up to try and support a point, you know like claiming that sacrifices were only carried out at one temple in Jerusalem, when the OT itself clearly shows that's not true.
Once again I've not even come close to saying this.
He's a news flash for you however, the 'golden rule' is not godly or Christian in origin, not by a good number of millennia.
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there may be similarities in the Golden Rule amongst many cultures, I sure as heck don't know everything. But I do believe it is Godly because that's what a God of Love would do and that is to teach us to Love.
I don't exactly know what fact you are talking about that I was making up??? I was taking about how Christ came to fulfill
The Law and not to abolish it.
I know you don't take anything written in the bible as fact, but I'm a Christian. So what was unacceptable???
Scaff
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This.....
"Rules such as the requirement for animal sacrifices in Judaism are no longer possible because the Sacrifices can only be held in the Temple in Jerusalem, a temple that is no longer standing."
...was a statement of fact made by you. Its also totally untrue (as the OT itself states), making your claim (and its not the first time you have done this kind of thing) unacceptable.
Now I believe you need to retract a statement you made about me, please do so on your next post (or quote me saying what you claimed) or you will be leaving GT Planet. Baseless accusations of the nature you made are AUP violations and will not be allowed to stand.
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