Do you believe in God?

[TenEightyOne]

Nothing to do with me of course, but why?

Simply because I feel the argument is fallacious and I'd like everyone to be a lovely happy Atheist like me. My lovely happy Christian friends feel the same about bringing me to CoD. I deliberately misunderstand them, of course.

 

[LeMansAid]

If you can't remove fallacious, you can still remove argument.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you can't remove fallacious, you can still remove argument.

I don't follow?

 

[Denur]

..
.- Was Jesus a Real Person?.

I got as far as @Scaff with reading that site and was wondering why they put up this list below as factual?

These early non-Christian sources provide the following facts about Jesus Christ:

• Jesus was from Nazareth.
• Jesus lived a wise and virtuous life.
• Jesus was crucified in Judea under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king.
• Jesus was believed by his disciples to have died and risen from the dead three days later.
• Jesus’ disciples lived moral lives and worshiped Christ as God.

My guess is that these "facts"solely come from the Bible (NT) and that they (and possibly you) regard the Bible content as factual and that therefore these statements are, uh, factual. Do you regard the content of the NT as absolute truth or do you merely believe it to be true? In case of the former, please understand that only Christians see things this way and that everyone else regards it as fiction, as much as the Harry Potter books (no joke intended, I mean this). I case of the latter, I'm sure that you are capable to understand that nothing in the NT (or OT for that matter) can be seen as factual, otherwise you wouldn't invoke words like "faith".

Please allow me to expand upon the first bullet (Jesus was from Nazareth). Why would that be any proof that Jesus was real, even if there has been a town called Nazareth? As you may know, Harry Potter boarded the train on Kings Cross station on several occasions. The mere fact that there actually is a Kings Cross station in London does not prove that Harry actually did/does live. Do you agree, or do I have it all wrong?

By the way, I do believe that there was a man called Jesus Christ who claimed to be son of God.

 

[SDsnakebutt]

Three paragraphs in... and I'm out




Even the question's back-handed, the question answers itself in my opinion by implying a link with wizardry (muhahaha). Americans seem particularly scared of Paganism (despite loving yuletide) therefore it's my opinion that Harry Potter is referenced for more reasons than his fictionality. Still, I'll keep going, I lit a cigarette for this




Possibly true depending on whose world "our world" is. Not the world though, not by any means, some believe there's historical evidence for a Jesus, some for the Jesus.



Well, no. The Roman's wouldn't have given him the most ironic death a carpenter could face, if that were true. And Isla'am has never felt that way about him, and nor has Judaism.

Given that less than 40% of the world are Christian "most of our world" becomes doubtful at the very least unless we're talking about the World of Christianity, which I guess is mostly sold on the whole Jesu thing already.




We got that idea from the opening "question". This statement is literally true out of context. Here, however, it feels like it's intended to make the reader think that disbelief in Jesus as Christ is a recent phenomenon. It isn't.




Very misleadingly written, the three-part argument that forms the 19th Century "Christ myth" argument (that's 19 centuries after Jesus, no?) is clearly comparatively recent. But that's not the only anti-Christ argument in town, plenty of others (including plumb, plain disbelief) go back to his supposed lifetime. This statement uses a very narrow fact and tries to exclude the notion that there was any disbelief before that particularly-classifiable argument... and that simply isn't true.

And Christ-myth is what my friend (who has a lisp) used to look forward to as a child*.

This article isn't journalism by any means and I wonder what level of "scholar" produced it. I always worry when people use that word in the hope people think it exclusively means "well-educated", that's an irony in itself. I know a four-year-old scholar who's just learning to write her name, she's very good at it (She's RUBBISH at it, but, y'know )

I still respect your view but I can't see anything in the preface of this article that suggests a balanced, fact-checked, educated approach to the historical subject. Please find better sources to back up the things you say.

Here's a genuine question; if we were to continue to debate your sources in this thread do you believe there's a possibility that you might change the opinion that you presented? My understanding of Gospel is that you'd hope to change my godless opinion, I'm happy to admit that I'd like to change yours



*Peurile joke, but it was fun.

I hear ya bro. You make completely understanding points and have respectfully requested that i give valid sources for the things i stated. I have to admit that i guess i was not prepared to have to back up the things i said when posting in this thread. I just wanted to answer the threads question and give a little bit of my view why i feel the way i do.

If i did take a look and search for reputable sources for the things i claim i still sense that you could (not saying you would, don't want to speak for you) come back at me with another source contradicting mine. You seem strongly set in your views and i don't think there is anything i could present that would be enough to change that. And I'm not trying to in any way. I just feel that people are set in the things they believe. and nothing will change there minds. Its like, there is people that honestly believe that the Holocaust was a hoax, that it didn't really happen.. You can try to show those people as much evidence that it did, and it won't effect there view at all. I hope you don't take any of this the wrong way. i don't want to be speaking for you or categorizing you in a group of people. Maybe you are open to accepting a certain religion and its beliefs, after your shown without a doubt evidence of it being true. I just don't think I'm qualified to even try addressing that.

As far as your question. I would be more than happy to spend as much time needed to help anyone come to the decision of wanting to accept God as Savior. Now would i spend a second trying to convince someone my religion is right and they should believe what i believe, if they didn't show any sign of interest. Nope. I don't believe its my place TO do that. I actually get upset when i see christians trying to convert people that obviously have no intent to. Put up flyers to your church. Let people know that IF they want to check out this Christianity God thing, that they are more than welcome and Let those people be ready to answer the questions the interested person has. But to try and sway someone that doesn't want to. I just don't agree with that. And i think your doing nothing wrong wanting to change my view. I understand. But i respectfully have to let you know that nothing in this world could change my mind

 

[TenEightyOne]

If i did take a look and search for reputable sources for the things i claim i still sense that you could (not saying you would, don't want to speak for you) come back at me with another source contradicting mine. You seem strongly set in your views and i don't think there is anything i could present that would be enough to change that.

That's a fair assessment

I, and I guess those who take 'my' side, would say that historical and scientific evidence to support the bible(s) is very thin... to believe the Testaments requires Faith.

 

[SDsnakebutt]

That's a fair assessment

I, and I guess those who take 'my' side, would say that historical and scientific evidence to support the bible(s) is very thin... to believe the Testaments requires Faith.

Well said my friend! I agree with you 100 %.

I got as far as @Scaff with reading that site and was wondering why they put up this list below as factual?

These early non-Christian sources provide the following facts about Jesus Christ:

• Jesus was from Nazareth.
• Jesus lived a wise and virtuous life.
• Jesus was crucified in Judea under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king.
• Jesus was believed by his disciples to have died and risen from the dead three days later.
• Jesus’ disciples lived moral lives and worshiped Christ as God.

My guess is that these "facts"solely come from the Bible (NT) and that they (and possibly you) regard the Bible content as factual and that therefore these statements are, uh, factual. Do you regard the content of the NT as absolute truth or do you merely believe it to be true? In case of the former, please understand that only Christians see things this way and that everyone else regards it as fiction, as much as the Harry Potter books (no joke intended, I mean this). I case of the latter, I'm sure that you are capable to understand that nothing in the NT (or OT for that matter) can be seen as factual, otherwise you wouldn't invoke words like "faith".

Please allow me to expand upon the first bullet (Jesus was from Nazareth). Why would that be any proof that Jesus was real, even if there has been a town called Nazareth? As you may know, Harry Potter boarded the train on Kings Cross station on several occasions. The mere fact that there actually is a Kings Cross station in London does not prove that Harry actually did/does live. Do you agree, or do I have it all wrong?

By the way, I do believe that there was a man called Jesus Christ who claimed to be son of God.

I hear everything ur saying. I didn't post that link in the intention of saying because of those things stated, its undeniable Fact that Jesus,Son of God is/was real. I only put the link up as a very little starter article for someone interested in resaerching further if Jesus was a real person back in those days.

I understand its not the best article to stand on saying what i believe in is true. Nor was i trying to do that either. I really just wanted to answer the threads original question. But a few good guys on here had a few questions about the things i said. I wasn't very prepared for that so i kinda scrambled trying to find something that was more factual and not me saying "well you just have to believe".

And your Harry Potter/ Kings Cross analogy makes perfect sense. I agree with what you said about that completely. (btw I'm a huge harry potter fan so i really liked that you used that)

Also thank you (even tho i know it wasn't for me) for saying that you do believe there was a man called Jesus Christ who claimed to be son of God. I understand your not saying he was right or anything like that. its just that was my reason for finding that not very good article. I was just trying to back up what i said about there was a man called Jesus, weather you believe he was the son of God is another thing.

Hope everything i wrote made sense. kinda busy at work trying to get this down. Thank you for your time and being respectful with your words. That really means a lot to me that everyone so far wether they agree with my views or not, Have been extremely respectful. That is a rare thing for me. My usual experience talking about God with non-believers have always been unpleasant bashing and name calling. So thank you!

 

[BobK]

its undeniable Fact that Jesus,Son of God is/was real.

I'm afraid that statements like that will get you in trouble here. Had you said "it's my firm unshakeable belief that Jesus,Son of God is/was real" or something to that effect, there would be no problem. But when you state it as a fact, and an undeniable one at that, you will be called upon to present evidence (not to be confused with testimony) for this fact.

I'm afraid there have been a number of people who have made claims of "fact" then neither backed up the claim nor withdrew the claim when challenged, and were banned as a result; the most recent having been just a few weeks ago.

This has been an interesting, thought-provoking and above all respectful discussion; I'd love to see it continue in that vein.

 

[mistersafeway]

I'm afraid that statements like that will get you in trouble here. Had you said "it's my firm unshakeable belief that Jesus,Son of God is/was real" or something to that effect, there would be no problem. But when you state it as a fact, and an undeniable one at that, you will be called upon to present evidence (not to be confused with testimony) for this fact.

I'm afraid there have been a number of people who have made claims of "fact" then neither backed up the claim nor withdrew the claim when challenged, and were banned as a result; the most recent having been just a few weeks ago.

This has been an interesting, thought-provoking and above all respectful discussion; I'd love to see it continue in that vein.

I think that was bad punctuation, if you tweak it a bit, it's less contentious and actually makes sense: 'I didn't post that link in the intention of saying because of those things stated its undeniable Fact that Jesus,Son of God is/was real, I only put the link up as a very little starter article for someone interested in resaerching further if Jesus was a real person back in those days.'

 

[sammy neuman]

There is nothing, to my knowledge, that proves unarguably that Jesus existed. About the only thing we can say with certainty is 'something' happened that has reverberated down to this day.

 

[SDsnakebutt]

It's my firm unshakeable belief that Jesus,Son of God is real. 👍
Thank you guys for looking out. I didn't realize you could get banned for something like that. Regardless of my Beliefs, i gotta follow Forum rules!

As far as are little... hmmm, i don't wanna call it argument or debate (makes it sound too negative imo)... I will just stick to conversation. As far as are conversation goes i guess i just have to admit that because i can't bring any evidence forward (AT THE MOMENT) that is considered fair-minded, unbiased, That i should refrain from stating things as facts. Only as my opinion, to respect the rules of '.

But i would like to share a story with whoever wants to listen. It may not be Factual scientific articles. But Its things like this story that allow me to feel so Confident with my beliefs.

WARNING!
WALL OF INCOMING TEXT! FROM SOMEONE NOT SO GREAT AT WRITING!​

. One of my best friends dad is a 19 year Deputy Sheriff in San Diego. He considered himself a believer but never really walked the walked and lived his life for God. About 2 years ago he made the decision to be All in with his faith and to let God direct his life.
. . . . One Month after this life changing decision My friends dad went out on a Child Abuse call and himself and 5 other Cops went to Arrest the Suspect. They had to kick the door down and he was the first one going into the apartment. The suspect was waiting with a high-powered Rifle about 15 feet away and shot Deputy Perez (friends dad) twice, one shot completely removing his left arm,and the second right below his heart. It was a thru and thru and he had a softball size exit wound on his back.
. . . . Anyone that knows anything about Medical stuff knows that when you have severe bleeding from arteries like Deputy Perez did, you have 4 minutes till you go unconscious and 4 more till your not waking back up.
. . . . TO make this story as quick as possible... basically a couple other officers were injured while busting the door and they had to retreat because they were outgunned. The suspect than shut the door and had Deputy Perez locked inside with him. ....What happens next would take too much to write out completely. But basically for the next 20 MIN a Third man appeared in that apartment and Told Deputy Perez that everything will be ok. He shared a few interesting Details with Deputy Perez about each of his family members and there future. He showed Deputy Perez just how real and how powerful he is. He showed him the evils of this world and what happens to those who reject him. He even showed him a little glimpse of what judgement day will look like When he returns.
. . . . For 20 min Deputy Perez was conscious in that house un able to protect himself. The Suspect that knew he was facing life in prison that already tried killing the cops had more than enough time to finish the job. Something stopped him, something More powerful than his own will. With Jesus guiding him, Deputy Perez was able to face the suspect and talk him out of what he started that day. Perez just repeated everything Jesus told him to say..after enough time. A rescue team finally came in, Bullets raining! and pulled Perez out of there and to the Hospital.
. . . . At the hospital they tried saving perez and stop the bleeding. If you know anything about that kind of stuff. A Doctor in critical unit can have a rested conscience and Pull the plug on a patient after going thru 20 units of blood in under 24 hours trying to save them. Not always the case. But the average human body has 8-10 units of blood. So 20 units is loosing all your blood and having new blood circulated thru you twice. So many complications can go wrong at that point, If the bleeding can't be stopped and is so excessive at that point its usually too late.
. . . By this point the news got out to family and friends and i swear hundreds of people were at the hospital waiting to hear the news. The head surgeon gave some bad news to Mrs Perez and asked for consent to stop everything. She asked him to please not give up and everyone got down on there knees to pray. I found out later that a lot of the Police stations across San diego County herd the news and they too began to pray. Power Of Prayer! Mr Perez went thru 86 units of blood By the time they finally stopped the bleeding.


You can take what you want from my little story. If you question the authenticity, u can PM me and i will be more than happy to show you the many many articles about this.. My friends dad Deputy Perez has had 25 surgeries since that day and is still rehabilitating his left arm. I have no doubt that he saw Jesus that day, alive in front of him. Jesus saved his life so that he can than go tell his story to others. To let them know God is real and he will return. Best believe it!

 

[zzz_pt]

Why would god do that? Why all that blood and pain? I'm not a god and I can think of 1001 better ways of convincing people that somehow I exist.

Why give credit to the "power of prayer" and not to the doctors? I would give credit to it if all that would happen outside the hospital and without any scientific intervention. If god is all powerfull, and if prayer works, he could have healed him without any blood unit whatsoever. That sheriff would be completely healed by now.

There are some extreme situations like that (if that is 100% acurate) every day across the world. The fact that we can't explain them all yet doesn't mean that god is the explanation. We need to keep searching to find out and keep improving our medicine.
Another simple fact is that for every story like that that you presented, are at least one other for every other religion. Just change the name of the god, the prophet or the angels, etc.

At the end of the day, if you believe in the God of the bible, you can't believe in the power of prayer (yes, the bible contradicts itself). If god is all knowing, he already knows the future and if already knows it, he can't change it. If he already knows the future, your life and everything in this unvierse is predetermined. Therefore, your prayer can't change the outcome of any particular situation. Prayer can't change what god already knows and decided to make.

ps. My english is rubbish but I think I made myself understood.

@SDsnakebutt

 

[SDsnakebutt]

Why would god do that? Why all that blood and pain? I'm not a god and I can think of 1001 better ways of convincing people that somehow I exist.

Why give credit to the "power of prayer" and not to the doctors? I would give credit to it if all that would happen outside the hospital and without any scientific intervention. If god is all powerfull, and if prayer works, he could have healed him without any blood unit whatsoever. That sheriff would be completely healed by now.

There are some extreme situations like that (if that is 100% acurate) every day across the world. The fact that we can't explain them all yet doesn't mean that god is the explanation. We need to keep searching to find out and keep improving our medicine.
Another simple fact is that for every story like that that you presented, are at least one other for every other religion. Just change the name of the god, the prophet or the angels, etc.

At the end of the day, if you believe in the God of the bible, you can't believe in the power of prayer (yes, the bible contradicts itself). If god is all knowing, he already knows the future and if already knows it, he can't change it. If he already knows the future, your life and everything in this unvierse is predetermined. Therefore, your prayer can't change the outcome of any particular situation. Prayer can't change what god already knows and decided to make.

ps. My english is rubbish but I think I made myself understood.

@SDsnakebutt

First off, your english was perfectly fine. I understood everything and i don't think you made 1 single grammatical error. So if English is a 2nd or 3rd language for you, speaking or writing, I have extreme respect for you and the time/effort it has taken you. Good job!

As far as why didn't God heal him with no Bloodshed and that kind of stuff. Well... Honestly as Christians we are not supposed to know everything. What i do know is that we are not supposed to question God and his actions. According to myself as a christian, he makes no mistakes. Everything he does, there is a significant reason to it.

As far as the Doctors. They themselves are complete blessings to are world. regardless of religion everyone should give thanks to the Men and Women that develop the skills to work on the human body. So i hope you don't think i was trying to brush the Doctors under the rug. They DID save Deputy Perez life that day.

I will add that there was a particular Doctor that was there from the day Perez arrived all the way till he walked out of the Hospital on his own strength. I remember my friend telling me about how his Dad, Deputy Perez wanted to Thank this Doctor for the longest time. But every time the doctor entered his room, he wouldn't speak to Perez. Just took his Vitals, filled out his paperwork, and quickly left. He told me that about 4 Months Later Mr. Perez was coming back to the Hospital for a checkup on things. That Doctor saw him in the Halls and pulled him to his private room.

The doctor Finally Burst with all the emotion and things he wanted to say. He basically told Perez that he had been at Sharp Medical Hospital for 32 years doing surgeries in the Trauma Unit. He told Perez That the moment he arrived and he got the Medical info from the paramedics, He knew with out a doubt he was going to die. He told Perez he was supposed to die. And for the last 4 Months he had been trying to figure out how he didn't. The Doctor, from what i gathered from my friend, didn't sound like he was a religious person at all. But he confessed to Perez that the only way he can think why he survived was by the Hand of God.

So anyways. Dude i totally hear everything your saying. I don't think your stupid or wrong for feeling/saying the things you did. We both have our separate outlook on things and why they happen. And i think thats totally cool. As long as we are respectful to each other, there is no reason why we can't go along believing our own beliefs.

I don't want to argue and try to sway anybody. I just wanted to share a story and say why its significant to me. earlier in this thread i stated some things and other people asked that i not make Fact like statements unless i have Legit evidence to back it up. So i apologized and corrected myself saying those things were just my opinion. And thats when i wrote the short story to say This is the stuff that helps me believe the things i do. Since i didn't have any Factual Proof to show i wanted to share that.

I hope My past and Future Post don't offend anybody on this Forum. That is not my intention in any way. If i ever come off as "I'm right, ur wrong" , i apologize and its most likely due to the lack of communication variables of only being bale to chat online.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@SDsnakebutt , that's a fascinating story and I'd firstly like to say that I'm sure everybody reading it is very glad that the Deputy survived.

You present a very clear belief in the reasons for that "happy" outcome in a terrible situation; those close to the drama and the fear used their faith in Prayer to collectively summon a "saving force".

It won't surprise you in the least to learn that I respectfully disagree

How many people have been equally loved, respected and prayed-for in situations of similar trauma? A lot, I would say. What's the likelihood of survival? Low, I'd say, and that's a view that I think you'd support. Is there a higher survival rate in societies or communities where Prayer is regularly deployed in support of medicine? I don't believe that there is. If prayer worked then in this modern world of metrics and study we'd see survival improvements in areas where we can measure like-for-like cases that did or didn't include a religious context.

I'd go so far as to argue that if we look at strongly religious societies (I mean societies where every part of everyday life is governed by the local flavour of faith) then I believe we'd see much lower survival rates, an effect caused by the preference of religion over science. I know they're not mutually exclusive by any means but practically they very often are in religiously-radical societies.

Of course, an individual case has nothing to do with statistics, every situation in life is-what-it-is and can only be compared retrospectively to statistics. I'd say that in this case the patient was saved by excellent medical work and some not-inconsiderable luck.

For a doctor to support a rehabilitating patient's belief that his strength and life come from the Prayer that saved him would seem perfectly acceptable to me. I survived a threatening trauma a couple of years ago and would have been emotionally unable to cope with a doctor who argued that I was saved by God. Why would a doctor even engage in trying to change my belief? They wouldn't, in my opinion, they'd allow me to believe whatever I needed to in order to facilitate my post-traumatic recovery.

There's significant human tragedy of all kinds in your story and I mean no disrespect to that but I can't accept that the faith of the community contributed to this man's medical recovery. It speaks of a strong community, for sure, but it doesn't speak of any steerage on events in the trauma room. The number of blood units required suggests that there was a queue of people prepared to give blood in support (and why wouldn't they). I wonder if there was any (shudder) atheist blood in there?

 

[Scaff]

Its a charming and very moving story that is also so full of confirmation bias, hearsay and speculation that as any form of proof that God(s) exists its next to useless.

The majority of it relies on the evidence of a person who would have been slipping in and out of consciousness and certainly not lucid. This thread had already provided evidence of how the mind can utterly fool you at the point of near death (hallucinations a plenty).

It also (as has been said) downplays the work the staff at the hospital did, what saved this man was the work of those people and his own will to survive. To attribute any of that to anyone/thing else is to do them all a disservice. We then get additional speculative 'must have been the hand of God' thrown back in.

What does it say about humans as creatures that we have to repeatedly give credit to a fantasy for the amazing things we are capable of?

 

[SDsnakebutt]

@

It won't surprise you in the least to learn that I respectfully disagree :)

hahahaha this had me laughing for a awile. Laughing with you that is. Good fun.

@[USER=146813]TenEightyOne and @Scaff - Once again i completely understand everything you both say. Its not like i havnt herd the side you both keep presenting to the things i say. And i think you are both more than equipped to explain why you feel/think the things you do. I have mad respect for both of you because of that. Its not the usual 3rd grade playground "no you're wrong, no you're wrong" arguments I'm used to hearing.

I don't feel like there is a whole lot i can say to ya guys. Nor am i trying to find a way to prove your logic wrong. If anything, its my beliefs that have less proof to stand on. But I'm ok with that.

Again, i must state that i did not intentionally try to take any of the credit away from the Doctors and there staff. They are amazing people that save lives everyday. Having had 2 surgeries myself, i can say that these people don't get enough credit there way, constantly caring for strangers and giving them the attention as if they were family. Im very thankful for them.

What does it say about humans as creatures that we have to repeatedly give credit to a fantasy for the amazing things we are capable of?

[/user]
I guess this really depends on who you ask. Because for me, if someone asked me this, i would say - The only reason we are given the capabilities to do anything is because the grace of God. Yes, us humans are pretty magnificent creatures. But at any moment, i believe, God could take it all away. According to what i believe, He has done it before! Noah/ Arc/ Great Flood.
I wake up every morning thanking God for the fact i can see and walk. For someone like me, we would say, Why wouldn't you give the Glory to God? For without him, we would be nothing..

Now thats all very one-sided. I understand. and I'm sure u guys are going to have something clever to say about it. I totally get the mindset of someone that has worked from nothing and earned every single thing good in there life because of there own abilities and not relying on someone else. Maybe They feel like if there was a God, why wouldn't he have helped when things were bad. idk... hope I'm not stepping over the line here. Don't want to be speaking for others.

And again. Thx for the respect guys! Im all ears for anything you would like to say or any questions about why i believe what i do. If not, let me say I'm very Happy to have posted here and have gotten the replies i have from all of you. even tho things have been short. I consider you my GTPlanet friends! Not a single negative thing to say.
God Bless you
(hahaha please don't shoot fire my way for saying that, I really do send you all my best wishes. just thought it would be funny saying that)

 

[TenEightyOne]

...someone like me, we would say, Why wouldn't you give the Glory to God? For without him, we would be nothing..

Okay, coffee's over, now I get tough...

You're amazing. You go through life able to consume food and replicate, but then so does moss. The difference with you is that you can see, think, judge, consider, debate (^^^ ) argue, invent, create, learn, change, adapt, rinse and repeat.

That's the animal you are. You have a few bits of DNA that make you different from, say, a green chilli pepper. But look what you can do with them. That's not an intelligent design, that's the animal that you evolved to be. You stand literally and figuratively on your own two feet (medical presumption ), you're the man that your biological parents made, you're the man that your own life raised, you're the thoughts that you have chosen to have.

If you'd chosen to you could have learned the same science, anatomy and procedural practicalities as the amazing people in the trauma room we discussed. Not because of God but because of you, because of your own willpower. That's the animal that you are. You would have made yourself in the same way that the trauma team each made themselves. However much you believed in Christ during that learning time, however much Bible study helped you stay focused it would still be you that made yourself that way.

Have Faith, by all means, I'm not here to say that believing in love in respect between-and-within communities is bad, I believe it's patently good. I don't need to accept Christ to think that, in fact I think that when one accepts Christ one actually buys into a preset social framework of strict rights/wrongs that restrict the ability of communities to make use of the amazing human talent for social regeneration that we evolved with.

I think you'd accept that biologically God did not make you, your parents did. Literal fact. So let's go back a generation, the same is true of them, and of their parents, and so on. So where do we draw the line, where's the first God-made couple? Adam and Eve? Take a good look at the Adam and Eve story, do you see anything there that suggests it's biological fact? I don't. I see a story that teaches people without the lifechances that you or I have had how to live their lives, how to understand themselves, how to make sense of a world that was very small and badly illuminated. Are you one of the people that the Bible: How To Live Life manual was written for? Of course not. The tradition is strong and I respect that but some things are clearly factually impossible.

Is everything the Bible taught about life still pertinent? I bet you habitually do a lot of the things that the Bible says you shouldn't, it's just a function of modern life. So why keep the bit where Light-Up-Sky-Daddy "made" you... and, by equal definition, owns you? The only thing that I see as clearly true in the Bible and other works like it (they exist) is that we should love one another, or at least start out at that position. Because I'm atheist that just sounds weird and hippy but that's my own belief.

What would happen when you finished your medical studies and you were in the trauma room after a 20-hour shift and your worst worst enemy came in through the doors on a trolley, life in the balance, ready to live or die in a moment? I think, I hope, I know what you'd do. You'd do your very best. Not because of LUSK, not because of the teachings of your faith but because you were brought up to be a good man and you were trained to assess and treat critical trauma. God isn't working your hands or your eyes as you work fingers and needles into the body before you, God brings no chance of life or death to the man under your gloves, God isn't in the room. I'd actually feel a little offended for you if 40 people praying in the waiting room claimed some jurisdiction over your work, your learning, your talent, your own amazing ability to save. Jesus doesn't save... you do.

God is only what Bible: How To Live Life says he is. There's plenty of good advice in there for sure but plenty of bad, take the best to aid you in your own incredible existence, why shouldn't you? I only cook about a third of the recipes in my Madjur Jaffrey book because I find the others unpalatable or too difficult. What's the difference really?

Bon Jovi's own work on what we should take from Bible: How To Live Life is summarised very clearly; "Keep The Faith". Thank you, JBJ.

I hope you have a happy, safe and productive day and I thank you for your blessing, I respect that you share good energy with people, I don't have to agree with why you think you do it

I'll leave you with your own words about trauma teams along with my own thanks to them that you're here to have this discussion;

I can say that these people don't get enough credit their way, constantly caring for strangers and giving them the attention as if they were family. Im very thankful for them.

Really really think about that whole sentence, then about 'family'. Then think about whether the strangers might actually be family or, at least, community. It's much easier to include a wide range of people in your community if you drop Bible: How To Live Life's guide on who is good or bad, it's quite strict you know

Peace.

 

[srmellott]

Yes, I know God exists. I've have had too many experiences with him to ever doubt him. From when my father had his own near-death experience. (he was dead for over 10 minutes and brought back) He told us of his experience of the white light tunnel and of seeing friends and family that had passed on. Of the night my father eventually did pass away 13 years after this. I saw a bright white light illumate his room and he was gone. I have had other experiences with God that really I cannot explain- dreams and visions that type of thing. I know that a non-believer might look at this post and call me a looney- and really I don't care. Call me a bible thumper- or a Jesus freak- my answer to that will be "Thank You!!!" I know I am not perfect NEVER WILL BE, but that is why I need to always seek the forgiveness of my heavenly father. To pray to him, to worship him and to respect and obey him. He is my rock and my salvation. I thank you Lord Jesus for the life that you have given me.

 

[TenEightyOne]

From when my father had his own near-death experience. (he was dead for over 10 minutes and brought back) He told us of his experience of the white light tunnel and of seeing friends and family that had passed on

Again, with the fullest of respect, I've been there. It's anoxia, you remember the experience very very clearly. It's a long, slow version of being gassed by a dentist. I saw my life and history with a perspective and clarity that was incredible.

I wrote a song later in which I called myself "the man who had to die to live", kind of true. It made me (I hope) a better person and drove me to right a lot of wrongs.

I can imagine why some people might feel that Light Up Sky Daddy was calling them though.

Did you read my answer to @SDsnakebutt? What did you make of it?

 

[srmellott]

Again, with the fullest of respect, I've been there. It's anoxia, you remember the experience very very clearly. It's a long, slow version of being gassed by a dentist. I saw my life and history with a perspective and clarity that was incredible.

I wrote a song later in which I called myself "the man who had to die to live", kind of true. It made me (I hope) a better person and drove me to right a lot of wrongs.

I can imagine why some people might feel that Light Up Sky Daddy was calling them though.

Did you read my answer to @SDsnakebutt? What did you make of it?

It is what it is. You feel that science can explain everything. I feel that science is a foolish quest by man to explain what God has created. It's a topic that we will never agree on- and that's fine. You have the right to your mindset- just as I have mine. It's hard to explain my faith here in this format, just know this: I consider everybody on this site as my brothers and sisters. We might live thousands of miles apart speak different languages and have different viewpoints- on most everything. I'm a conservative, right wing Republican, and Christian from hicktown Muncie Indiana and PROUD OF IT!!!!!!!!

 

[Imari]

I feel that science is a foolish quest by man to explain what God has created.

Foolish?

 

[SDsnakebutt]

Okay, coffee's over, now I get tough...

Peace.

Just wanted to make this so you know i read your post.. 👍
May the Force be with you.

It is what it is. You feel that science can explain everything. I feel that science is a foolish quest by man to explain what God has created. It's a topic that we will never agree on- and that's fine. You have the right to your mindset- just as I have mine. It's hard to explain my faith here in this format, just know this: I consider everybody on this site as my brothers and sisters. We might live thousands of miles apart speak different languages and have different viewpoints- on most everything. I'm a conservative, right wing Republican, and Christian from hicktown Muncie Indiana and PROUD OF IT!!!!!!!!

Hey brotha just wanted to give ya a heads up. Post like the one you wrote are going to get some replies pretty quickly. Mine did. But don't be quick to judge. Every response i got back , may not agree with me at all, but was completely respectful. I hope that continues if you are going to respond back.

Also let me tell you that Some of the people on here are very equipped to engage in debate. If you are just going to throw out some emotions and opinions they will take it like a fart in the wind. If you got some knowledge to back you up (sadly i didn't haha) than I'm sure they will be more than happy to start throwin Facts out.

I hope you don't take my post the wrong way. its just that i could see someone taking something the wrong way from someone with a different belief and start a very very non-constructive argument.

And Yes i totally know what you mean by this..... @srmellott said- "It's hard to explain my faith here in this format"

 

[srmellott]

Yeah I knew getting on here it would be like that. Oh well- bring on the hate!!!!!

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yeah I knew getting on here it would be like that. Oh well- bring on the hate!!!!!

I hope you don't think you got any from me?! I'm atheist but I'll try to discuss the errors of Your Way with respect

(People) feel that science can explain everything. I feel that science is a foolish quest by man to explain what God has created...

I don't know of anyone who says Science can explain everything, that's the difference between science and religion and a pretty important one at that.

Find me a scientist who can explain gravity?

So, in your opinion, what is foolish about science? I'm interested in hearing more from you on that

 

[srmellott]

I hope you don't think you got any from me?! I'm atheist but I'll try to discuss the errors of Your Way with respect

None taken- just talking in general terms that's all. Like I said we all have a right to our own mindset. I am just as proud of my beliefs as you are in yours. We both can agree on that one I am sure!!

 

[TenEightyOne]

None taken- just talking in general terms that's all. Like I said we all have a right to our own mindset. I am just as proud of my beliefs as you are in yours. We both can agree on that one I am sure!!

Certainly, and I believe you when you say you think that "science is a foolish way to explain the things that God created". Why do you think that? Have you always thought it?

 

[Scaff]

I feel that science is a foolish quest by man to explain what God has created. It's a topic that we will never agree on- and that's fine. You have the right to your mindset- just as I have mine.

Given that science literally means knowledge it's an odd thing to consider to be foolish. It's also rather inaccurate to describe it as as mindset, as that would imply subjectivity, something that science is not.

You seem to be treating science as if it's a form of faith, which again simply is not true.

 

[srmellott]

I hope you don't think you got any from me?! I'm atheist but I'll try to discuss the errors of Your Way with respect



I don't know of anyone who says Science can explain everything, that's the difference between science and religion and a pretty important one at that.

Find me a scientist who can explain gravity?

So, in your opinion, what is foolish about science? I'm interested in hearing more from you on that

I'm good with practical science- It's just that not all science can be proven such as the big bang theory and evolution. They can never be proven. As you might see my belief in God as being foolish- I in turn see the big bang and evolution in the same light. I can't show you God anymore than you can show me evolution or the big bang, but reading the new testament can sure open doors for you.

 

[srmellott]

Given that science literally means knowledge it's an odd thing to consider to be foolish. It's also rather inaccurate to describe it as as mindset, as that would imply subjectivity, something that science is not.

You seem to be treating science as if it's a form of faith, which again simply is not true.

Oh boy- why did I put that one little word in there "foolish" Knowledge is faith or religion to a lot of people. I got forced feed all this evolution and big bang stuff at school and at the time I believed in it. At the time I was agnostic, in high school and even into college. I began looking at things from a different perspective and finding holes in this "science" Where did the elements come from that formed the big bang. If they could form.from nothing- then in effect how? If I evolved from a monkey millions of years ago why are there still monkies in the same state now. The thing is you have "faith" that these theories are true, just as I have faith that God created the world and that Jesus was and is the Son of God. Well sorry if this came out wrong it's 3 AM here time for bed. God Bless!!!

 

[Azuremen]

I began looking at things from a different perspective and finding holes in this "science" Where did the elements come from that formed the big bang. If they could form.from nothing- then in effect how? If I evolved from a monkey millions of years ago why are there still monkies in the same state now.

I take it you didn't study the sciences at all once you got to college.