Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 24,489 comments
  • 1,140,833 views

Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,051 51.5%

  • Total voters
    2,042
Original sin is unfortunately the same sort of justification used as to why the children of slaves should be slaves as well. Because it suits those in power.

Modern society does not hold children responsible for their parent's actions. Yet Christianity holds central that we current day humans should be responsible for something done by our great-to-the-nth-degree grandparents. There seems to be somewhat of a disconnect there, as to why responsibility for this one thing should pass down generations.
 
I've read the whole thing a number of times now and quite frankly I think its a poor analysis of the video in question that makes a number of assumptions and inferences that are inaccurate and do not address the key points raised.

The main areas I have an issue with (not all of them by any means are):

"First, given what Stephen Fry believes about life, the universe, and everything, why does he even have a problem? If all that is, is the result of blind chance, an impersonal materialistic universe that just ‘happened’, then what’s the problem of suffering children? What is suffering? Why care? The weak die, the strong survive, the species carries on – the categories of ‘wrong’, or ‘injustice’, or ‘evil’ have no place."

This falls into the assumption that atheists are quite happy to accept suffering as a part of the everyday and just 'happens and what's the problem. Now not only is it an inaccurate assumption to make on the part of any atheist, it also ignores the fact that Fry is a Humanist and strongly supports and works towards ending suffering.



"Please, please, please note what I am NOT saying – I am NOT suggesting that people who do not believe in God are not good, or loving. I take it as an empirical fact that many who don’t believe do, to an embarrassing degree, far excel the church in charity, generosity, and love. What I am saying is that without God, there is no way of accounting for why we even care."
So aside from the first and last sentence contradicting each other, this assumes that for a moral code or empathy to exist one needs God. Quite simply that is a claim not supported by a massive body of evidence.



"As a child needs to be lifted onto her father’s lap in order to slap him in the face, Stephen Fry needs God in order to say anything at all about the misery of life."
The old 'you have to believe in God to hate him argument' which kind of forgets that Fry is providing an answer to a hypothetical question.



"In the video, Fry claims that his atheism not only promotes unbelief in general, but also seeks to question what kind of God God might be, given the state of things. "
And yet again forgetting that this is an answer to a hypothetical question.



"Christianity takes suffering very seriously. Without entering into all of the debates about free will and God’s sovereign control, the Bible is clear that suffering is not God’s moral fault, but ours."
So it’s the victims fault that they are suffering! I'm sorry but any attempt to justify original sin is simply bronze age tosh used as a control mechanism.



"We are not entitled to know God’s reasons for what he does, and allows. We may weep, and ache, with the question ‘why?’ We cannot, however, demand God’s justification according to our own standards, and consider him guilty until proven innocent. "
Why are we not entitled? Why must it be a mystery that we are not allowed to question? All I read here is 'shut up, stop asking questions and when you die a good God-fearing boy/girl I will take you to the happy place'. Well I'm sorry but I think the questions should be asked, that ignorance is not a virtue, that we do need to look further than the cross and we don't have all the answers we need.


As does Revelations, the final book of the NT is arguably more violent, cruel and bloody that all of the OT combined.

You still didn't get to the important part. You, know, Jayseus.

God would have been just to leave things as they are. But he did not. The essence of the Christian message about suffering is not philosophical speculation, but an announcement of good news, that God entered this world, in the person of Jesus Christ, taking human nature upon himself and suffering on a Roman cross, suffering the curse that we deserve, so that eternally, we might be free from its pain.

Jesus's life, death, and resurrection showed the world that pain, suffering, and the brutality of life will be overcome. Joy emerges through Jesus's path: the sacrifice of the self in love. Understand Matthew 16.

Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

If a shepherd were to lose a sheep, would he sacrifice the security of the entire herd to go after the one gone astray? Of course not. That would be insane. But to go after it is exactly what Jesus would prescribe. Pain and suffering are similarly things that should not happen-- things that go astray from the way things ought to be. But what costs do we consider before going after these things? That is our sin. Jesus gave himself away in love for us, redeeming us and giving us life so that we could live the same, so that nothing else could go astray.

In my opinion, we already have the theodicy answer. It's already been sent before us, posted on a cross on a hill so everyone could see it.
 
Actually, this suddenly makes sense.

Think of the entirety of humanity as the flock, and Christians as the one sheep. Jesus (and by extension, God) would go and save the one sheep, leaving the rest of the flock in danger. That's the sort of beings they are.

Most of the rest of us would think "🤬, I want to go find that sheep but I can't leave the rest of them alone. I guess I'll just have to stay here and take care of the majority."

Ladies and gentlemen, there you have why there is so much trouble on Earth. It's not that God doesn't care, it's just that he doesn't care about you. Because he's off dealing with some other fool who got himself into trouble by wandering off where he shouldn't. :rolleyes:

It's funny how when you actually look at Biblical stories it's easy to see how carefully they're crafted to appeal to a very specific audience. Namely, a sub-group of society that feels that they're oppressed, undervalued and ignored. Those sort of people would welcome the God described above, because they very much feel that they're the one sheep.
 
@Imari:

Actually, this suddenly makes sense.

Think of the entirety of humanity as the flock, and Christians as the one sheep. Jesus (and by extension, God) would go and save the one sheep, leaving the rest of the flock in danger. That's the sort of beings they are.

Most of the rest of us would think "🤬, I want to go find that sheep but I can't leave the rest of them alone. I guess I'll just have to stay here and take care of the majority."

Ladies and gentlemen, there you have why there is so much trouble on Earth. It's not that God doesn't care, it's just that he doesn't care about you. Because he's off dealing with some other fool who got himself into trouble by wandering off where he shouldn't. :rolleyes:

It's funny how when you actually look at Biblical stories it's easy to see how carefully they're crafted to appeal to a very specific audience. Namely, a sub-group of society that feels that they're oppressed, undervalued and ignored. Those sort of people would welcome the God described above, because they very much feel that they're the one sheep.

I'm sorry that you feel so much hatred that you'd take my analogy and use it that way. However, you have reinforced my point precisely.

Why do I come to post in this thread when I already knew that you were going to reply as you did and dismiss anything I have to say? Hint: It's not because I hate you.
 
You still didn't get to the important part. You, know, Jayseus.
Or perhaps I did, but do not consider it to be as important as you do.


Jesus's life, death, and resurrection showed the world that pain, suffering, and the brutality of life will be overcome. Joy emerges through Jesus's path: the sacrifice of the self in love. Understand Matthew 16.
Now aside from having to blindly accept it as fact (which is far from the reality based on the evidence available) it still does nothing to explain why an all powerful God inflicts/allows suffering.

Nor does it really illustrate why God even bothered with the whole Jesus thing, little to nothing changed in the reality of the world after the claimed events.

Oh and then we have the closing of Matthew, which states that after going back to see Dad and co-opting the services of a few angels he will be back (best Arnie voice in my head for this bit) to live out Revelations. A book that not only ensures that suffering will carry on, but will actually ensure it gets far worse (unless you are judged to have been good based on a changing and contradictory set of rules). Not only that but it will occur in the lifetimes of a number of the people Jesus was speaking to at the time (Matthew 16 21:28).

The entire thing reads as a control mechanism designed to allow a break-away sect of Judaism to demand obedience from its followers.


If a shepherd were to lose a sheep, would he sacrifice the security of the entire herd to go after the one gone astray? Of course not. That would be insane. But to go after it is exactly what Jesus would prescribe. Pain and suffering are similarly things that should not happen-- things that go astray from the way things ought to be. But what costs do we consider before going after these things? That is our sin. Jesus gave himself away in love for us, redeeming us and giving us life so that we could live the same, so that nothing else could go astray.
So pain and suffering shouldn't happen, but they did. So Jesus came and suffered and died for us, so that everything could carry on as normal with pain and suffering but now you can go to heaven. Which you could still do before, but this is the new heaven and definitely better that the last one and this time its the right one!




In my opinion, we already have the theodicy answer. It's already been sent before us, posted on a cross on a hill so everyone could see it.
I've not seen it.

Can you tell me how to see it outside of metaphor?
 
The most beautiful and most useful lie ever told is that of resurrection and eternal life. But is it also the most necessary?
 
Imari
Christianity holds central that we current day humans should be responsible for something done by our great-to-the-nth-degree grandparents.
It's nothing more then taking responsibility for what is now known thanks to a fruit and not for any n'th degree ancestor's actions.
Actually, this suddenly makes sense.
Not as you interpret however. The 99 and the 1 is a parable from Luke 15 and discribes they joy in 1repenting over 99 not needing to. Nothing to do w/ abandonment.
 
Last edited:
It's nothing more then taking responsibility for what is now known thanks to a fruit and not for any n'th degree ancestor's actions.

So this is more like "now that we know how atomic power works, we need to take responsibility to see that it's not misused"? As opposed to "my grandfather bombed Hiroshima, so I need to take responsibility for that"?

The first is reasonable and I could see how that works. It's true, atomic power can be a dangerous thing and everybody needs to work to make sure that it's not misused.

The second is a bit crazy to me, but it unfortunately seems more in line with how I understood original sin to work. My understanding was that everyone is born with the sin resulting from Adam's fall from the garden. Hence the "my grandfather bombed Hiroshima" analogy.

As someone who probably knows a lot more about it than me, how do you see it?

Not as you interpret however. The 99 and the 1 is a parable from Luke 15 and discribes they joy in 1repenting over 99 not needing to. Nothing to do w/ abandonment.

Maybe so. I was responding to the words Omnis wrote, not wherever the original quote comes from. I assumed that he'd got the gist of it correct.

As you say, when I read the original material it's in fact about the joy of finding something that one thought was lost, which is a totally different thing.

It's no longer fair of me to use that example as typical of the entire Christian faith, so I withdraw it. It still applies to the faith of the person who originally wrote it though.
 
An easy yes to the 1st and a bit more complex no to the 2nd. The story gives a choice to one that effects all, so with that we are given a great responsibility. If it comes with the possibility of suffering or death then in a sense the answer is yes but we can only be held accountable for our own actions.

A central theme to Chistianity, "through one man all sin was born and through one man all sin is forgiven" So we have that get out of jail free card.

I might address the sheep business in another post.
 
A central theme to Chistianity, "through one man all sin was born and through one man all sin is forgiven" So we have that get out of jail free card.

Is all sin forgiven? It seems to me that each person must make their own repentance to be forgiven. That's why there are things like confessionals. If Joe Random murders someone then God isn't going to let him into heaven if he rocks up to the pearly gates and says "yeah, but Jesus covered that one for me, right?" At least, I'd hope not. That would be awful.

And some sins appear to be unforgivable, such as the sin of believing in other gods (or none, as is regularly demonstrated in this thread by people telling me and others that we're going to hell). That isn't forgiven unless we convert.

While it's a great idea to have as a central theme to Christianity, I think the reality appears to be quite a bit more complex than that.
 
There is a strain of "ancient alien" theory which has it that humanity has been divided against itself by the hoaxing of various gods and cultural heroes inflicted upon man by ET's.
 
While one can certainly entertain the possibility, there is also another theory which says that ingesting drugs can cause verbage to become slurred and incomprehensible.
 
Is all sin forgiven? It seems to me that each person must make their own repentance to be forgiven. That's why there are things like confessionals. If Joe Random murders someone then God isn't going to let him into heaven if he rocks up to the pearly gates and says "yeah, but Jesus covered that one for me, right?" At least, I'd hope not. That would be awful.

And some sins appear to be unforgivable, such as the sin of believing in other gods (or none, as is regularly demonstrated in this thread by people telling me and others that we're going to hell). That isn't forgiven unless we convert.

While it's a great idea to have as a central theme to Christianity, I think the reality appears to be quite a bit more complex than that.
Not sure you'll find a confessional in a Christian church....
 
What point is that?

You may want to omit the snarky videos/image macros this time. You can also not bother telling me what emotions I feel.

I'm not telling you what emotions you feel. You're already expressing them quite obviously.

@Scaff, I think you have it framed up wrong. Can you imagine a great world where we had peace and love? So much that we'd give all of ourselves for love? Instead, we still have people burning and beheading eachother. We still have violent states that coerce taxes from everyone. There's your revelations.
 
@Scaff, I think you have it framed up wrong. Can you imagine a great world where we had peace and love? So much that we'd give all of ourselves for love? Instead, we still have people burning and beheading eachother. We still have violent states that coerce taxes from everyone. There's your revelations.

So Revelations has been going on since the birth of civilization then?

Claims that we are in the 'end days' are nothing new, Christianity has been claiming it since the death of Jesus (assuming it occurred of course)..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

...how long is it supposed to go on for?
 
All catholics are christian, but not all christains are catholic - hence you will find a cofessional inside of a catholic church but not inside of a christian church.

No, catholic churches are christian churches, therefore you will find a confessionals in christian churches.
 
All catholics are christian, but not all christains are catholic - hence you will find a cofessional inside of a catholic church but not inside of a christian church.
Which means you will find a confessional in a Christian church, its needs to be a Christian church from the Catholic sect of Christianity, but that doesn't stop it being a Christian church.
 
Catholic and Christianity are not the same - without going into it the mere fact they have different names suggests this. So my point being that


Is all sin forgiven? It seems to me that each person must make their own repentance to be forgiven. That's why there are things like confessionals. If Joe Random murders someone then God isn't going to let him into heaven if he rocks up to the pearly gates and says "yeah, but Jesus covered that one for me, right?" At least, I'd hope not. That would be awful.

And some sins appear to be unforgivable, such as the sin of believing in other gods (or none, as is regularly demonstrated in this thread by people telling me and others that we're going to hell). That isn't forgiven unless we convert.

While it's a great idea to have as a central theme to Christianity, I think the reality appears to be quite a bit more complex than that.

In a non-Catholic, Christian church you will not find a confessional.

To my knowledge you will only find a confessional inside of a Catholic church.
 
Catholic and Christianity are not the same - without going into it the mere fact they have different names suggests this. So my point being that
Catholicism is one of the many Christian denominations (seems sect is bad) and as such is as Christian as any other part of Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

In fact its the biggest one of the lot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members


In a non-Catholic, Christian church you will not find a confessional.

To my knowledge you will only find a confessional inside of a Catholic church.
Not in the exact same form no, but confession via various means forms a part of many branches of Christianity (of which Catholicism is one).
 
I disagree.

Many prefer the term denomination, but as a subgroup of Christianity, sect fit the bill well enough.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect

:lol: Actually, it doesn't fit the bill at all. If you want to say Baptists are a denomination of Christianity, that's valid. But even calling Baptists a sect would be a stretch. Catholic means universal-- it's the mother church. You can't be an offshoot or subgrouping of that which you are.

I just thought it was funny that you posted that up there.
 
Catholic and Christianity are not the same
Okay, this is getting ridiculous. Here's what you originally said:
Not sure you'll find a confessional in a Christian church....
You will if it's a Catholic Christian church, since Catholicism is a sect of Christianity. Christians may not all be Catholics, but all Catholics are Christian. That's all anyone said.

Indeed if we get down to it, there's no such thing as "a Christian church", just churches of the various sects and cults that fall under the Christian umbrella. A Mormon temple is Christian, a Quaker meeting house is Christian, an Anglican church is Christian, a Church of Wales (as opposed to a Church in Wales - which is also Anglican) church is Christian - and so on...

You'll find a confessional in a Christian church. It just has to be a Catholic one.
 
Back