Do you believe in God?

[Dotini]

Eyewitness testimony is not proof.

The testimony of one witness may not constitute sufficient proof when the consequences of decisions based on that testimony are or can be quite major. If an excited man came to your door and exclaimed that your roof was on fire, you may be inclined to smile, slam the door and return to your recliner, popcorn and DVD. If it were several respectable appearing people at your door all saying the same thing rather earnestly, you may be well advised to take the situation more seriously.

If several thousand witnesses are interviewed in a systematic and statistically based poll or survey are considered, and their testimony is consistent, coherent and without contradiction amongst all ages, races and ethnicity , then a reasonable man would accept their testimony as true, especially if the survey results tallied with all previous polls and surveys which had been taken for decades without any significantly different results.

For instance, if you were interested in visiting Antarctica, and you interviewed 1000 people on a standardized questionnaire who had been there, and another group of 1000 who had not, you'd likely give greater credence to those who had actually been there.

There is nothing to worry about, so stay calm,
Dotini

 

[Famine]

The testimony of one witness may not constitute sufficient proof when the consequences of decisions based on that testimony are or can be quite major. If an excited man came to your door and exclaimed that your roof was on fire, you may be inclined to smile, slam the door and return to your recliner, popcorn and DVD. If it were several respectable appearing people at your door all saying the same thing rather earnestly, you may be well advised to take the situation more seriously.

I'd go and check for myself. Then return to the recliner I've apparently acquired in the brief spell I was outside. Also popcorn is rank.

Of course, when it comes to "all you have to do is die", checking for yourself is a bit tricky. If a billion people came to my door and said "God exists" - and the Jehovah's seem to be sending them piecemeal - and they know because they've died, seen him and then undied again, I'd head back to the brand new recliner. After setting the dogs on them.

 

[Dotini]

I'd go and check for myself. Then return to the recliner I've apparently acquired in the brief spell I was outside. Also popcorn is rank.

Of course, when it comes to "all you have to do is die", checking for yourself is a bit tricky. If a billion people came to my door and said "God exists" - and the Jehovah's seem to be sending them piecemeal - and they know because they've died, seen him and then undied again, I'd head back to the brand new recliner. After setting the dogs on them.

Deepest sympathies about all those Jehovah's Witnesses. Proselytizing is indeed offensive. Apologies for assuming you had a recliner and ate popcorn. No offensive intended. But I'm assuming that you don't have dogs and that you wouldn't set them on a billion people.

After my own survey of the NDE literature, it's clear that there is no God apart from us. The most that can be gleaned is that God is within us, within everything. All quite positive, and nothing threatening to worry over, so you needn't fear those ignoramuses who haven't been to Antarctica, and tell you it is boiling with fire and brimstone.

One of the many interesting aspects of the NDE is that often the victim recovers full health, and goes on to lead an improved, happier, better adjusted life.

Not to worry,
Dotini

 

[Skynyrd1977]

Eyewitness testimony is not proof.

I'd go and check for myself.

Would not then your own witnessing of God in front of you be proof to yourself?

 

[Dotini]

Would not then your own witnessing of God in front of you be proof to yourself?

This question is not posed in the most tactful or realistic way. In the published NDE literature, which goes back to 1975 and involves hundreds of physicians and doctors systematically analyzing thousands of reports, in no accepted report that I am aware of is it stated that God appears in front of an NDE victim. The closest it gets is the report of "a commanding presence", and rarely a voice, indicating that the victims time to die has not yet come and must return to their body.

Don't worry, be Hopi,
Dotini

 

[niky]

Witnessing and having evidence are two different things.

Human sensoria are notoriously easy to confound... unless you know how it's done, you'd swear that stage magic is really... magic.

That's not including various hallucinations, dream-like states, suggestibility, persistence of vision...

There is that one fun experiment... students were sent into a room with an examiner behind a counter, who gives them a test paper. The examiner ducks under the counter to get a pen (or something) and when they stand up, it's a different examiner wearing the exact same clothes. Many times, the students didn't even notice.

I think what it'd take is a billion people coming back from the dead (not just "Oh my God, we labelled him dead by mistake!" but "rotting corpse dead" ) with handwritten notes from God stating he's granted them a reprieve from death.

Still won't prove that "God" is the "Creator"... but it comes close...

 

[Dotini]

I think what it'd take is a billion people coming back from the dead (not just "Oh my God, we labelled him dead by mistake!" but "rotting corpse dead" ) with handwritten notes from God stating he's granted them a reprieve from death.

Still won't prove that "God" is the "Creator"... but it comes close...

Yes, absurdly though you've put it, it's still thought provoking, isn't it? The question now becomes, what are the potential implications for the way we live, if any?

Don't worry, be Hopi
Dotini

 

[Omnis]

Would not then your own witnessing of God in front of you be proof to yourself?

Yeah, but you can't prove it to others.

 

[niky]

Yes, absurdly though you've put it, it's still thought provoking, isn't it? The question now becomes, what are the potential implications for the way we live, if any?

Don't worry, be Hopi
Dotini

Depends on who gets the second chance. Only people from one denomination or group... or everyone? And will it be "moral" people only? What set of moral standards apply?

Wars may break out... holy wars... wherein those whose people are amongst the reincarnated fight against those whose people aren't. Those on the "have" side will cite reincarnation as a blessing from God and a sign of their own divine authority. Those on the "have-not" side will call it "the Devil's work" and may try to hunt or kill reincarnated "heretics" as inhuman demons.

If the reincarnation is more general, religious strife will remain, but won't be as big a factor.

Suicide and accidental deaths might go up... way up. The death penalty won't be a deterrent to as many people anymore... but if said death is painful enough, they might not want to get caught again.

Will people come back the same age as they were when they died? Leaving us with an ever-growing population of geriatrics who'll fall over at the drop of a hat? Or will they come back younger... or even as infants?

What will this mean for how we treat other human beings? Will we be more careful because those we wrong or kill could come back to exact revenge... or would we become more careless, because consequences are less permanent?

Such an occurrence would have a profound effect on the human psyche. Still won't prove that there's a God the Creator. Maybe "God the Reanimator"...

 

[Famine]

Would not then your own witnessing of God in front of you be proof to yourself?

Nope. My own eyewitness testimony does not constitute proof, any more than anyone else's.

Still, you're focussing quite wrongly on one part of the sentence. Allow me to quote it all for you:

It is neither possible to prove nor disprove the existence of a deity, even a construct like FSM or IPU (or Moroni or Xenu).

This is what "unfalsifiable" means.

"Your roof is on fire" is easily falsifiable - go outside and look. It takes 20 seconds. Given the soggy nature of Britain, it is quite unlikely, but it doesn't do any harm to have a quick squizz. Try doing the same with "The Invisible Pink Unicorn exists".

 

[Dotini]

Depends on who gets the second chance. Only people from one denomination or group... or everyone? And will it be "moral" people only? What set of moral standards apply?

Wars may break out... holy wars... wherein those whose people are amongst the reincarnated fight against those whose people aren't. Those on the "have" side will cite reincarnation as a blessing from God and a sign of their own divine authority. Those on the "have-not" side will call it "the Devil's work" and may try to hunt or kill reincarnated "heretics" as inhuman demons.

If the reincarnation is more general, religious strife will remain, but won't be as big a factor.

Suicide and accidental deaths might go up... way up. The death penalty won't be a deterrent to as many people anymore... but if said death is painful enough, they might not want to get caught again.

Will people come back the same age as they were when they died? Leaving us with an ever-growing population of geriatrics who'll fall over at the drop of a hat? Or will they come back younger... or even as infants?

What will this mean for how we treat other human beings? Will we be more careful because those we wrong or kill could come back to exact revenge... or would we become more careless, because consequences are less permanent?

Such an occurrence would have a profound effect on the human psyche. Still won't prove that there's a God the Creator. Maybe "God the Reanimator"...

I'm pleased by the quality and lines of thinking shown here. These are all topics fit for more discussion. We should stipulate that people of all denominations and groups - everyone - has the benefit of survival of consciousness after the death of the physical body. The studies indicate that prior beliefs have little to no effect on the NDE. Atheist or believer, Westerner or not, everybody gets the same trip. Funny enough, this also applies to those under 5, as well as to blind folks - they "see" the same things.

FWIW, the studies show that people who's NDE is due to a suicide attempt will virtually never attempt suicide again. The main benefit of the NDE seems to be an improved awareness and quality of life - more peacefulness.

@Famine: I so totally agree there is nothing like direct first person experience to validate or falsify an important point, especially when it is foundational or becomes a working assumption. Of course it is completely unethical to induce NDE's on yourself or someone else in the attempt to verify this question. For those who would insist on personal exploration, I can recommend the Hemi-Sync tapes, CD's, DVDs' as a safe and effective means to expand and explore your consciousness.

Don't worry, be Hopi
Dotini

 

[magburner]

Roll up everyone, and join the newest religion that is taking the world by storm - The Religion of Peter Pan!

Yes Peter Pan! Like all other religions, Peter Pan offers you the promise of a mystical far off place, where you can live until the end of time in near paradise conditions. Again, like all other religions, Peter Pan offers everyone the opportunity to achieve immortality. Unlike other religions though, Peter Pan does not chastise you with dogma. As an added bonus, belief in Peter Pan grants you the ability to fly, not only in this world, but the next too!

All you have to do is believe! Second star to the right anyone? 👍

The most that can be gleaned is that God is within us, within everything.

Now, who is it that believes in that...? I am almost certain that 'that' is a religion in its own right.

 

[brooster]

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen!

 

[Northstar]

All you have to do is believe! Second star to the right anyone? 👍

you left out the part about the equivalent to the "blood of christ".

Sadly enough if you were to actually use that ploy to start a religion you would be called a crazy nutjob despite it being basically the same story as any other religion.

 

[Joel]

What's really sad is that all of these ideas that have come up, the IPU, FSM, and now the Peter Pan one, are just as legitimate as Christianity, Islam, or any other religion. Just not as old.

 

[magburner]

you left out the part about the equivalent to the "blood of christ".

Sadly enough if you were to actually use that ploy to start a religion you would be called a crazy nutjob despite it being basically the same story as any other religion.

Blood of Christ! 👍

What's really sad is that all of these ideas that have come up, the IPU, FSM, and now the Peter Pan one, are just as legitimate as Christianity, Islam, or any other religion. Just not as old.

I'm glad you like the Peter Pan one, I thought it up myself. It is now my standard (and slightly satirical), rebuttal to religion. In a couple of thousand years Peter Pan will be ancient text. Will it too be held is such reverence? 👍

 

[Joel]

Blood of Christ! 👍



I'm glad you like the Peter Pan one, I thought it up myself. It is now my standard (and slightly satirical), rebuttal to religion. In a couple of thousand years Peter Pan will be ancient text. Will it too be held is such reverence? 👍

I'm a pastafarian myself, you better convert, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster will strangle you with his noodly appendage!

 

[Famine]

Roll up everyone, and join the newest religion that is taking the world by storm - The Religion of Peter Pan!

Yes Peter Pan! Like all other religions, Peter Pan offers you the promise of a mystical far off place, where you can live until the end of time in near paradise conditions. Again, like all other religions, Peter Pan offers everyone the opportunity to achieve immortality. Unlike other religions though, Peter Pan does not chastise you with dogma. As an added bonus, belief in Peter Pan grants you the ability to fly, not only in this world, but the next too!

All you have to do is believe! Second star to the right anyone? 👍

You are Michael Jackson and I claim my five doses of propofol.

 

[Northstar]

I'm a pastafarian myself, you better convert, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster will strangle you with his noodly appendage!

I see another person has been touched by his noodly appendage. I am a member, although this new Church of Peter Pan sounds rather intriguing.


Funny how many people ask if these sort of things are a joke, I normally respond "as much as any other religion".

 

[Sam48]

You guys actually stumbled upon an interesting topic. Because anyone can take a jar of peanut butter and claim it's a god by worshipping it. They will then tell you that this jar of peanut butter is physical proof that this peanut butter god exists (which, funny enough, is more evidence then any real religion has ever presented). However, even though the most predominant religions of the world have no "jar of peanut butter", most all their followers are very firm believers. For some reason, evidence lessens religion, because it gives you less to pre knowingly believe in. If a religion is somehow proven to be true, people would suddenly think, ok cool, yah, so what? Presenting evidence would kill the religion, and cause followers to stop believing .

 

[Dotini]

God is within us, within everything.

Now, who is it that believes in that...? I am almost certain that 'that' is a religion in its own right.

The technical term for it is pantheism. But in your cult following it would be peterpantheism.

 

[Public'sTwin]

You guys actually stumbled upon an interesting topic. Because anyone can take a jar of peanut butter and claim it's a god by worshipping it. They will then tell you that this jar of peanut butter is physical proof that this peanut butter god exists (which, funny enough, is more evidence then any real religion has ever presented). However, even though the most predominant religions of the world have no "jar of peanut butter", most all their followers are very firm believers. For some reason, evidence lessens religion, because it gives you less to pre knowingly believe in. If a religion is somehow proven to be true, people would suddenly think, ok cool, yah, so what? Presenting evidence would kill the religion, and cause followers to stop believing .

Which leads us to another conundrum alluded to earlier - that if something metaphysical were to become material, I think many would argue sacrilege upon discovering that it can be measured, weighed, dated and identified in conventional terms.

That is to say, once the divine is brought into physical existence - it's stripped of its' divinity by nature of scientific deconstruction.

 

[Dotini]

Which leads us to another conundrum alluded to earlier - that if something metaphysical were to become material, I think many would argue sacrilege upon discovering that it can be measured, weighed, dated and identified in conventional terms.

That is to say, once the divine is brought into physical existence - it's stripped of its' divinity by nature of scientific deconstruction.

Once the phony, false and deceptive is brought under strict scrutiny, it's stripped of any divine pretensions. This has to be good. When true, useful but obscure and puzzling phenomena are brought to light and popular understanding, humanity is poised to evolve a bit farther in its cosmic journey. No such thing as too much truth, and no conundrum is presented.

Respectfully yours,
Dotini

 

[Sam48]

Which leads us to another conundrum alluded to earlier - that if something metaphysical were to become material, I think many would argue sacrilege upon discovering that it can be measured, weighed, dated and identified in conventional terms.

That is to say, once the divine is brought into physical existence - it's stripped of its' divinity by nature of scientific deconstruction.

Well said.

 

[magburner]

I'm a pastafarian myself, you better convert, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster will strangle you with his noodly appendage!

Watch it pal! You could have a holy war on your hands!

You are Michael Jackson and I claim my five doses of propofol.

Is that before, or after the 'Jesus Juice'?

I see another person has been touched by his noodly appendage. I am a member, although this new Church of Peter Pan sounds rather intriguing.

And so it should sound intriguing! Wouldn't you like to fly? Wouldn't you like to never grow old?

The technical term for it is pantheism. But in your cult following it would be peterpantheism.

Hahaha! 👍

 

[Northstar]

I would convert, but your religions dislike of pirates goes directly against my religions key beliefs that pirates are holy figures.


(I can picture 1000 years from now the world in a global war over Pastafarianism and Peterpantheism.)

 

[niky]

Is that before, or after the 'Jesus Juice'?

Since that first Peter Pan post last week, I've been considering signing up.

But after these last few posts... pass the pasta, please.

 

[Joel]

I would convert, but your religions dislike of pirates goes directly against my religions key beliefs that pirates are holy figures.


(I can picture 1000 years from now the world in a global war over Pastafarianism and Peterpantheism.)

Hahahahahahahah. I'm seriously considering trying to convert people. Never too early to start recruiting! What will be our "71 virgins" thing though? If you are a Pastafarian martyr, you go to heaven, and and a nice italian family makes you the best spaghetti you've ever had in your entire life.


On a more serious note, a local church had a sign out front, it read "No God, No Peace. Know God, Know Peace" Isn't that the biggest load of bull:censored: you've ever heard? It's really tough to find a war that wasn't started for religious reasons. Perhaps they meant that being a believer gives you more "peace" than being an atheist? If so, I'm perfectly content with my level of peace, even if I'm a *gasp* atheist.

 

[Northstar]

That is fairly funny, although I don't believe the cola wars have anything to do with religion.

 

[Joel]

That is fairly funny, although I don't believe the cola wars have anything to do with religion.

Wrong. Pepsifarians and Cokeonnities.