Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 24,484 comments
  • 1,120,592 views

Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,051 51.5%

  • Total voters
    2,042
DCP
I've told you before, for every supposed contradiction you assume is the case, you can just as easily find it debunked.
The question is, are you going to accept the response, or continue rejecting it. This is the point I'm trying to make.
I'm not going to blindly accept a response if it make no sense and to date I have never seen a response that actually addresses the contradictions.

Why don't you give it a go?

  • How many of each animal went onto the ark?
  • Who carried Jesus' cross at his crucifixion?


DCP
Regarding bats and birds, do you think men 3000 years knew what the difference was?
Is it so important to God, that he should tell those men the difference?
What's important to God is men coming to repentance.
And this is exactly what I mean by a response that makes no sense.

Its important because God is supposed to be omnipotent and omnipresent, and as such should be utterly incapable of making such an error. That such an error exists in a book that is supposedly the word of God makes no sense at all (its almost as if it wasn't written by a God, but rather by members of a bronze age tribe who didn't know any better).





DCP
This verse is typical:

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

21For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Hence, people being so blinded that they don't even realise that they believe in an out of nothing / uncaused universe, that found all the ingredients from somewhere, to eventually get to where we are today.
And here we go again.

You accuse others of ignoring feedback and refusing to accept any evidence,m yet that is exactly what you are doing and exactly what your religion is telling you to do. Its treating ignorance as a virtue!


DCP
Tell me, is it so important that the Sun doesn't revolve around the earth, even though it is seen to be the case from our perspective on earth? Can we change it? Did man become more loving to one another after they found that the earth does the rotating and revolving? Does it in any way change your daily life and living?
Do you own a mobile phone, use a sat-nav, have flown on a plane or have ever watched live TV broadcasts?

Its ridiculously important.


DCP
Versions and translations doesn't mean it is changed. It confirms that Gods word is universal, and will reach every nation and tongue, fulfilling what the bible actually says. Even when they add a later found verse, they tell you in the footnote such is the case. It doesn't in anyway take away the truth of the word.
No one can tell us if the word was changed or corrupt, because what can we compare the corruptions/changes with?
Yes it has changed, massively, that is not open for debate or discussion, its plain fact; and verses have not just been added, but entire books have been added and re-moved.

You also miss the entire point behind that, an infallible, omnipotent, omnipresent God would not need edits carried out to his work; it would have been prefect first time around.


DCP
It might as well be the case for every book. Apply the same criticism.
It is and I do.

You're the one that isn't applying any basic standards of critical thinking and credible evidence
 
I'm not going to blindly accept a response if it make no sense and to date I have never seen a response that actually addresses the contradictions.

Why don't you give it a go?

  • How many of each animal went onto the ark?
  • Who carried Jesus' cross at his crucifixion?



And this is exactly what I mean by a response that makes no sense.

Its important because God is supposed to be omnipotent and omnipresent, and as such should be utterly incapable of making such an error. That such an error exists in a book that is supposedly the word of God makes no sense at all (its almost as if it wasn't written by a God, but rather by members of a bronze age tribe who didn't know any better).






And here we go again.

You accuse others of ignoring feedback and refusing to accept any evidence,m yet that is exactly what you are doing and exactly what your religion is telling you to do. Its treating ignorance as a virtue!



Do you own a mobile phone, use a sat-nav, have flown on a plane or have ever watched live TV broadcasts?

Its ridiculously important.



Yes it has changed, massively, that is not open for debate or discussion, its plain fact; and verses have not just been added, but entire books have been added and re-moved.

You also miss the entire point behind that, an infallible, omnipotent, omnipresent God would not need edits carried out to his work; it would have been prefect first time around.



It is and I do.

You're the one that isn't applying any basic standards of critical thinking and credible evidence

But that is just the point. You are blindly rejecting any responses. That's why I posted that verse, to show you that it's you that won't change, and expect everything around you to better start making sense. The Good news of salvation in the bible is foolishness to you, because it doesn't align with YOUR way of thinking and acting. Can you deny yourself? That is the question.

Those material things you mentioned, you do know that people lived without those things for many centuries.
As knowledge increases, so would technology. The bible affirms this. So obviously being born into a changing world full of technology, this would become part of our daily lives. The bible says the unbeliever would bless us. Are most atheists responsible for blessing us with technology of this age? Probably.

Where doesn't anyone say the written word is perfect? Where does the bible itself say that the word is untouched and well preserved? It is Christ who is the Perfect Word, who brought the word to man. If God wrote the perfect word, then everyone would become fearful and follow Him forcefully. Islam claims their book is perfect and untouched, and they don't know who wrote it.

The fact that the bible was written by many different men from different centuries, all coming to the same conclusion, all under persecution and tribulation, still managed to give us the word that God intended for us, shows us this is His word and plan for us.

If things like the animals and who carried the Cross bug you, surely you can do the research yourself, because nothing anyone says here, will convince you otherwise.
It all starts with the first verse of the bible. If you accept that, then you can move forward. Until then, you will continue attacking the bible, until your last breath.
 
DCP
But that is just the point. You are blindly rejecting any responses. That's why I posted that verse, to show you that it's you that won't change, and expect everything around you to better start making sense. The Good news of salvation in the bible is foolishness to you, because it doesn't align with YOUR way of thinking and acting. Can you deny yourself? That is the question.
How can I even start to consider a response when you will not even give one?

Be open yourself and answer the two I have asked you about.

DCP
Those material things you mentioned, you do know that people lived without those things for many centuries.
As knowledge increases, so would technology. The bible affirms this. So obviously being born into a changing world full of technology, this would become part of our daily lives. The bible says the unbeliever would bless us. Are most atheists responsible for blessing us with technology of this age? Probably.
Then why are you on the internet?

Oh and as you want something a more ancient and not material, the ability to navigate by the sun and stars.

DCP
Where doesn't anyone say the written word is perfect? Where does the bible itself say that the word is untouched and well preserved? It is Christ who is the Perfect Word, who brought the word to man. If God wrote the perfect word, then everyone would become fearful and follow Him forcefully. Islam claims their book is perfect and untouched, and they don't know who wrote it.
So the Bible is not perfect and wasn't written by God.

OK. In which case how do you know which bits are right and which bits are wrong?


DCP
The fact that the bible was written by many different men from different centuries, all coming to the same conclusion, all under persecution and tribulation, still managed to give us the word that God intended for us, shows us this is His word and plan for us.
They don't come to the same conclusion, hence the issue with contradictions and inaccuracies and why they need addressing.

If they all came to the same conclusion then we wou not have the huge number of different Christian sects that we do.

DCP
If things like the animals and who carried the Cross bug you, surely you can do the research yourself, because nothing anyone says here, will convince you otherwise.
It all starts with the first verse of the bible. If you accept that, then you can move forward. Until then, you will continue attacking the bible, until your last breath.
I have, I know full well which verses contradict each other. I'm asking if you also know and how you explain them. It seems you are unable to do so.
 
How can I even start to consider a response when you will not even give one?

Be open yourself and answer the two I have asked you about.


Then why are you on the internet?

Oh and as you want something a more ancient and not material, the ability to navigate by the sun and stars.


So the Bible is not perfect and wasn't written by God.

OK. In which case how do you know which bits are right and which bits are wrong?



They don't come to the same conclusion, hence the issue with contradictions and inaccuracies and why they need addressing.

If they all came to the same conclusion then we wou not have the huge number of different Christian sects that we do.


I have, I know full well which verses contradict each other. I'm asking if you also know and how you explain them. It seems you are unable to do so.

because I've been brought up in this era. If I was brought up 200 years ago, I would be happy riding around on a horse, or training birds to send messages to loved ones nearby.

What you are asking, we've already been through in the many threads before. I've planted the seed. the Holy Spirit does the rest. It's easier if you google "refuting supposed bible contradictions". You can fight with your own spirit in accepting or rejecting what you find.

I believe bible is the perfect word of God, exactly how a Perfect God would have wanted. I know what God wants for me, so it's very easy for me to understand and accept this. I don't have the difficulties you have with it.

They all point to the Messiah, who was revealed to man in the NT. There is nothing contradicting there.
I'll say it again, it's man that has the issues, not God.
It doesn't matter what name or sect you call your church. Do you know Jesus personally, and is your name written in the Lambs book of life. Only this matters, for each individual that is accountable.
 
DCP
because no matter what answer I give you, your heart is trained by yourself to reject it immediately,

How about you actually try though? Like... read my point, and then, you know, respond to it... like... as though we're having a discussion.

DCP
Jesus said He is the door. Great, you probably picturing Him being a physical wooden door, opening and closing like any other. Such is the carnal mind, lusting over the things of this world.

It's true, metaphors are impossible to understand to us non-believers. It's a big limitation of ours.

DCP
God does not merely love; He is love itself. Everything God does flows from His love.

Like when he condones slaughtering the men, women, and male children of his enemies and raping their female children.
 
How about you actually try though? Like... read my point, and then, you know, respond to it... like... as though we're having a discussion.



It's true, metaphors are impossible to understand to us non-believers. It's a big limitation of ours.



Like when he condones slaughtering the men, women, and male children of his enemies and raping their female children.

Could you please show me where God did this? Please post the entire chapter. You know what that is right?
I'll try as you ask.
 
DCP
and I've asked, can you please post Numbers 31. The full chapter, so we can see what is being reported on here.

I posted the relevant bit in the linked post. If you want to read additional information I'm sure you have a bible.
 
I posted the relevant bit in the linked post. If you want to read additional information I'm sure you have a bible.

It's not me that needs the answer. It's you. So if you want the answer, post the chapter. We'll get it.
Else, you not for real.
 
DCP
It's not me that needs the answer. It's you. So if you want the answer, post the chapter. We'll get it.
Else, you not for real.
He has already posted it in this thread and linked to it.

You already have it and yes Danoff is real.
 
@DCP Here is Numbers 31 from biblegateway.com. The passage in bold is what the earlier posts were discussing.

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”

3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.


19 “Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is what is required by the law that the Lord gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp.”

Dividing the Spoils
25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the Lord was 675;
38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72;
39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61;
40 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32.
41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part, as the Lord commanded Moses.

42 The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men— 43 the community’s half—was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 30,500 donkeys 46 and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites’ half, Moses selected one out of every fifty people and animals, as the Lord commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.

48 Then the officers who were over the units of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—went to Moses 49 and said to him, “Your servants have counted the soldiers under our command, and not one is missing. 50 So we have brought as an offering to the Lord the gold articles each of us acquired—armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces—to make atonement for ourselves before the Lord.”

51 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted from them the gold—all the crafted articles. 52 All the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds that Moses and Eleazar presented as a gift to the Lord weighed 16,750 shekels. 53 Each soldier had taken plunder for himself. 54 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds and brought it into the tent of meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the Lord.
 
DCP
Others worship football games, women, drugs, money, scientists, theories, self logic, lust, sin etc

Nobody worships these things except idiots. They are enjoyed. There is a difference.

It's also fitting that people believe in an uncaused universe, but can't believe in an uncaused God.

Nobody believes in an uncaused universe except idiots. People believe that they don't or can't know what if anything caused the universe. There is a difference.

Do you see how you're tilting at windmills here?

Or it could be the backing of the US and ownership of nuclear weapons?

U.S.A. = God.
Q.E.D.

:P

DCP
Versions and translations doesn't mean it is changed. It confirms that Gods word is universal, and will reach every nation and tongue, fulfilling what the bible actually says. Even when they add a later found verse, they tell you in the footnote such is the case. It doesn't in anyway take away the truth of the word.

Have you ever learned a second language other than English?

No translation between two languages perfectly preserves meaning without pages and pages of ancillary explanations and cultural commentary. Even modern English and English from several hundred years ago are different enough to render some meanings unclear.
 

....Church of Zion? Man, those ZCC guys are hardcore. Every year, literally millions of 'em would gather in some dusty town (Moria) and do a prayer service or some such.

A proper spectacle, that.

Some pics:

706x410q700886c892d3a59b18d3ff18f5ff306390.jpg


Check out number of parked cars in this pic. I bet you won't be able to count 'em all.

zion-christian-church-moria_-_mg4491.jpg


....And for those who don't own cars,

ZCC1.PNG


Edit: for some reason the last pic doesn't show, no matter what I do. Bah.
 
Last edited:
Then you will have no problem at all citing the verse that states the exact number of people involved.
Hold on a second... You're the one that said "he drove out hundreds of people" so you tell me "the verse that states the exact number of people involved."
If I disagree with you it doesn't mean I know the exact number of people involved, I disagree because the verse only says Jesus drove out "those who were buying and selling".


Nope, but given that you are asking me to repeat areas I have already covered you seem to have missed them.
We're only now discussing the issue mentioned above, if you have "already covered" it, show me.


Now in 18:7 we have the word 'things' indicating more than one, and if we look at alternate versions of the this verse we get:

So we get Temptations (now the devil didn't use adultery as a temptation in the desert), ...woe to the world for the causes of sins (again a world of causes of sin is clearly not just adultery) and ...woe to the world for the causes of offenses (again a world of causes of offenses is clearly not just adultery).

So either adultery is the only temptation, offence or sin; or its talking about more than just adultery.
I don’t know what you’re talking about here. How does this in any way relate to, much less, support your claim that “thought is as bad as the deed.”? Where's the bit where you even try to explain that?


Oh and just to round things off 18:8, your foot! I've no idea what you imagination conjures up in regard to adultery, but it doesn't involve using a foot, or maybe it does for you.
Why would you think that I’d relate adultery and using a foot?


Then again you didn't answer my question in regard to the need to dismember oneself simply for thinking about adultery.
Can you quote me your question then?

A rather big cop-out.
You can't have your cake and eat it.


Sorry but you are. For it to be the word of God, then God would have to exist.If you can't prove the existence of God then you can't prove that its God's words (hence the reason why you can't use the Bible to prove the Bible is true, or to prove that it the word of God or that God exists). Its akin to using the Harry Potter books to prove that Harry Potter is real and not a work of fiction.

I'm not. You've misunderstood from the start, I'm just stating what what I believe.
 
Hold on a second... You're the one that said "he drove out hundreds of people" so you tell me "the verse that states the exact number of people involved."
If I disagree with you it doesn't mean I know the exact number of people involved, I disagree because the verse only says Jesus drove out "those who were buying and selling".
You are the one who is claiming to only use th ewords of the verse to support you version.

I'm not and never have said I would do that, the use of a single source is a poor way to for an opinion. Hence the reason I know that temple attendance for feast days was large (as in the hundreds if not thousands), that a scourge is an instrument of torture (and not used for moving cattle - unless you want to injure you cattle).

You have alternately claimed that Jesus used no violence at all, despite the word drive being used (which infers the use of force), the making of an instrument of torture being made to achieve this. A text that also has him overturning tables, which is an act of violence (violence doesn't need to be directed at a person to instil fear and fear of harm in people).

Yet you have (with no support from the text) claimed that no violence was used at all!


We're only now discussing the issue mentioned above, if you have "already covered" it, show me.
I've clearly and repeatedly mentioned how I have no intention of limiting my sources to the Bible alone and that its my interpretation of the events described based on my reading.




I don’t know what you’re talking about here. How does this in any way relate to, much less, support your claim that “thought is as bad as the deed.”? Where's the bit where you even try to explain that?
Do you really not get analogy?

Or do you actually think that Jesus is suggesting that people who trip over should remove their foot?

Why would you think that I’d relate adultery and using a foot?
I didn't, you did.

You said that it wasn't expand on to be a broader analogy, but was simply about adultery (eyes indicating looking, hands indication touching), so I asked how a foot got involved and if this means we need to dismember ourselves for think about

Can you quote me your question then?
Here you go:

No it doesn't limit to adultery. It goes on to say that should any part of you cause offense (such as eyes for lust) it should be removed. Adultery may be the initial example, but its expanded on far beyond that (unless we have to dismember ourselves for lustful thoughts?).



You can't have your cake and eat it.



I'm not. You've misunderstood from the start, I'm just stating what what I believe.
Odd because you seem to think that your belief is the only versio of belief, which would make it your 'fact'.

We get to have our own opinions and beliefs (if we want the later), we don't get to have our own facts.

The Bible is not a good source of fact, quite the opposite, as such you can't tell me that my interpretation of it myth is incorrect without fact to support it. All I have done is cite supporting information to support my interpretation, you have stuck to a single text to effectively attempt to say 'my version of what the Bible says is true because the Bible says it is, utterly missing that it doesn't actually do anything of the sort.
 
I have to wonder, why exactly does the number of people matter exactly? If it's 1, or 1000, Jesus drove people from an area at the very least using a threat of violence, and proceeds to start up turning tables like some roid raging tough guy.
 
I have to wonder, why exactly does the number of people matter exactly? If it's 1, or 1000, Jesus drove people from an area at the very least using a threat of violence, and proceeds to start up turning tables like some roid raging tough guy.
It doesn't.

Its simply an attempt at a distraction for what was clearly an act that was violent, either directly or via threat of violence is also immaterial.

However Christian apologists seem to get very upset if you point out errors, inaccuracies, contradictions etc. in the Bible; attempts to distract with minor (often irreverent) detail is pretty much par for the course.
 
Last edited:
DCP
Again, Christianity is NOT a religion.
Call it what you like actually. In the case where this surfaced, it doesn't matter. What matters is that both The Bible and Qu'ran have plenty of material that can be all too easily taken to inspire horrific acts. I get that perhaps your interpretation of The Bible and certain others' interpretations of the Qu'ran allow for a peaceful existence, but that doesn't change the openness to a more or less accurate (it could be argued that the peaceful version is the one that's less accurate) interpretation that can result in Qu'ran-or-Bible-jusified killings.

Seems to me that both books need to be made clearer, just as Ozzy clarified that what was heard as "I tell you to end your life", was actually "I tell you to enjoy life". Yep, exactly like that. But really, I'm at the point where I'd have a decent amount of respect for a Christian or Muslim who chooses the "good" interpretation - but boundless respect for any that would have the chutzpah to call for a re-configuration of their books, possibly with a simplification of the "dos and don'ts", and maybe a clear separation of historical accounts and teachings.

Ha, just realised what you get if you mix The Bible and Qu'ran....... Quibles. Story checks out.
 
Last edited:
You are the one who is claiming to only use th ewords of the verse to support you version.

I'm not and never have said I would do that, the use of a single source is a poor way to for an opinion.
Whats your source that says "he drove out hundreds of people"?

I have to wonder, why exactly does the number of people matter exactly?
Scaff is saying, because there was hundreds of people, he had to use a whip to get rid of them.
He's making stuff up to try and make his argument sound better.

The text however state that he drove them out, how exactly did he do that to hundreds of people and associated animals without using the instrument that is so specifically described in the manner in which it is intended
______

Hence the reason I know that temple attendance for feast days was large (as in the hundreds if not thousands),
Irreverent, as I said... "The total number of people there has nothing to do with it."

that a scourge is an instrument of torture (and not used for moving cattle - unless you want to injure you cattle).
Would swinging at 5% injure cattle, or was Jesus limited to using 100% swing speed?


We're only now discussing the issue mentioned above, if you have "already covered" it, show me.
I've clearly and repeatedly mentioned how I have no intention of limiting my sources to the Bible alone and that its my interpretation of the events described based on my reading.
Show me your sources that say "he drove out hundreds of people"


You have alternately claimed that Jesus used no violence at all, despite the word drive being used (which infers the use of force), the making of an instrument of torture being made to achieve this. A text that also has him overturning tables, which is an act of violence (violence doesn't need to be directed at a person to instil fear and fear of harm in people).

Yet you have (with no support from the text) claimed that no violence was used at all!

What the text doesn't say also proves the point I'm making.


John 2:16
To the dove sellers he said, "Take these things away from here!"
Here Jesus evicted the sellers of doves verbally, not with a whip.

There’s no mention of any person getting hurt in the whole process.
Why wasn't Jesus immediately arrested had he used such "violence"?

Jesus put an immediate stop to the corrupt commerce by turning over the tables and he showed everyone there that God's house of prayer wasn't going to be "a cave of robbers" anymore.


Do you really not get analogy?

Or do you actually think that Jesus is suggesting that people who trip over should remove their foot?

I didn't, you did.
You said that it wasn't expand on to be a broader analogy, but was simply about adultery (eyes indicating looking, hands indication touching), so I asked how a foot got involved and if this means we need to dismember ourselves for think about

You've misunderstood again.

I didn't say the analogy was simply about adultery.

About Matthew 5:30 I said....
"The mention of the hand relates to what we do with our hands, a physical action, not a mental action."

You think I believe verse 30 is speaking of adultery, which prompts you to cite Matthew 18:8 speaking of other body parts, namely, a "foot" and saying..." your foot! I've no idea what you imagination conjures up in regard to adultery,"

The answer is nothing.

However this still has got nothing to do with the main issue. You're supposed to be defending your claim that.. "Jesus himself was quite specific in the text that thought was as bad as the deed."

I've been asking for that "specific" piece of text for a while now, but it looks like you just made that one up too.


Can you quote me your question then?
Here you go:
Why did you edit in a question mark?
The original quote doesn't have one.

All I have done is cite supporting information to support my interpretation, you have stuck to a single text to effectively attempt to say 'my version of what the Bible says is true because the Bible says it is, utterly missing that it doesn't actually do anything of the sort.

:lol:


However Christian apologists seem to get very upset if you point out errors, inaccuracies, contradictions etc. in the Bible;
Proverbs 18:2 Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.
Jude 1:10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them.
 
Whats your source that says "he drove out hundreds of people"?

Scaff is saying, because there was hundreds of people, he had to use a whip to get rid of them.
He's making stuff up to try and make his argument sound better.
You need to start being very careful with the accusations you throw around.

Now am I making things up?

Well given that most biblical scholars believe that the temple in question was in Jerusalem it would make it most likely to be the Second Temple on the Mount also known as Herod's temple which was quite frankly massive (approx 1600 feet long and 900 feet wide and 9 stories in height), and at Passover Jeruselem would normally be filled with 300,000 to 400,000 pilgrims. The Temple was so large that it had a separate courtyard for the money changers, etc. known as the Court of the Gentiles.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple#Herod.27s_Temple

While Jerusalem had a number of Synagogues at the time it only had one Temple, Herod's, as such this has to be the one described in the passage.


This is a model of what the Temple looked like based on archaeological records:

herodsinnertemple.jpg

The Court of the Gentiles surrounded it and occupied a huge area:
Herods_Temple.jpg


These are some of the remains today to give you an idea of the scale:
TempleStepsMay2009.JPG


The entire place was built to house a huge number of people and as such historical evidence would point to the court of the gentiles containing hundreds of people during Passover, if not more.

So what you are saying is that during Passover, of the 300,000 plus people who had come to Jerusalem, and the additional people from the town itself, fewer than 100 of them were in the Temple at the time? Less than 0.033% of the people who potentially could have been in it were in it?

Now it was big enough to hold all of them and designed for them to stay in, that was part of the purpose of the Court of the Gentiles - to allow the pilgrims to camp, feed and tend to the animals they had with them, change Roman money to Tyrian money (as Jews were not allowed to mint coins and Roman money was not allowed in the Temple itself) for donations.

So what you are saying is that 99.9%+ of all the people who could have been in the Temple grounds at the time Jesus and crew rocked up had just coincidentally popped out for a bit of sightseeing and souvenir shopping in the rest of the Town?

What you are claiming doesn't even remotely gel with the facts of the Temple itself, its purpose at Passover, the scale of 1st Century Jewish pilgrimage and every bit of historic and archaeological evidence.

Lets say for argument that those people only stayed for one day (Passover lasts for eight days) and we take the lower figure of 300,000 (say its was a bad year - people were not feeling too holy), that's still 37,500 people per day in the place. Less than a hundred is still under 0.26% of them!

But you're right because you are only willing to take what the Bible says (or doesn't bother to say) and nothing else?

Quite frankly an astoundingly blinkered view that ignores a wealth of evidence simply to try and support a view of an event that no evidence exists to show even happened.

Irreverent, as I said... "The total number of people there has nothing to do with it."


Would swinging at 5% injure cattle, or was Jesus limited to using 100% swing speed?
Already answered and ignored by you.



What the text doesn't say also proves the point I'm making.
The text doesn't prove a thing, its not a factual document that stands up to external scrutiny.


To the dove sellers he said, "Take these things away from here!"
Here Jesus evicted the sellers of doves verbally, not with a whip.

There’s no mention of any person getting hurt in the whole process.
Why wasn't Jesus immediately arrested had he used such "violence"?

Jesus put an immediate stop to the corrupt commerce by turning over the tables and he showed everyone there that God's house of prayer wasn't going to be "a cave of robbers" anymore.
He put an immediate stop to the happenings in an area the size of around 20 american football fields by simply asking nicely and the whip was just for decoration?

OK, you carry on believing that, the evidence for that being nigh on impossible is rather large.

Now as far as not being arrested, I've already covered that (another thing you have simply ignored), given that he would have had to enter and leave via temple gates to even get into the Court of the Gentiles even if he had not used violence he would have been arrested for telling people to lrave, driving out cattle and throwing things around (odd how that's not violent isn't it - property damage isn't violence in the Bible).

Given the location its actually far more likely that it simply didn't happen at all.


You've misunderstood again.

I didn't say the analogy was simply about adultery.

About Matthew 5:30 I said....
"The mention of the hand relates to what we do with our hands, a physical action, not a mental action."

You think I believe verse 30 is speaking of adultery, which prompts you to cite Matthew 18:8 speaking of other body parts, namely, a "foot" and saying..." your foot! I've no idea what you imagination conjures up in regard to adultery,"

The answer is nothing.

However this still has got nothing to do with the main issue. You're supposed to be defending your claim that.. "Jesus himself was quite specific in the text that thought was as bad as the deed."

I've been asking for that "specific" piece of text for a while now, but it looks like you just made that one up too.
I've cited it across many versions of the Bible and you have (for the third time in a single post) simply ignored it.



Why did you edit in a question mark?
The original quote doesn't have one.
So rather than actually answer the question you have focused on the fact that I edited a post at a later point in time to make it clearer?

How about you actually answer it rather than avoid it?


Keep it up, It's bound to end well mocking members.


Proverbs 18:2 Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.
Jude 1:10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them.
So now rather than address a perfectly valid point you resort to ad-hominid attacks and insults?

It doesn't make a bit of difference that they are Bible quotes, you are effectively saying that anyone who disagrees with the Bible (and lets be clear we are talking about your interpretation of it as well) is a 'fool' and an 'unthinking animal'.

Doesn't it concern you at all, that a text containing so many errors and contradictions, that makes so many claims that are simply not supported by any other source and that borrows so heavily from other (older) religions has to include passages that specifically belittle anyone who questions it?

Is your God so weak that it is unable to tolerate even a basic level of critical evaluation?

Is the Bible so poorly written that no other text or sources are allowed to be used to check its accuracy?

How about you stop hiding behind quotes from the Bible and insults and answer some of the points raised?
 
Last edited:
Guys I don't think the Prince of Peace was going to get in an altercation there! Look at how He berates a disciple for using a sword at his arrest. I always took those verses to show how Jesus was human and could react with anger, but that's just me :)
 
Back