Do you believe in God?

[Scaff]

... it would form a rationale or basis for moral behavior, for doing good and for undertaking productive activity.

We already have it, its an evolutionary trait we share with all herd and pack animals.

 

[Dotini]

Most people who do good things don't need an ancient book to tell them to, although they may convince themselves they do. Plenty of people need an excuse to be disgustingly bigoted though, as in the well known Leviticus example about homosexuality, while they have tattoos and piercings, wear mixed fabrics, and happily eat pork and shellfish. All of those things are worthy of execution according to Leviticus, and I'm pretty sure it's also the part of the bible that says a man should be executed if he ever cuts his hair or shaves his face. There's too much insanity in all religious texts for them to be a solid basis for morality, including most versions of the New Testament thanks to Revelations. The more moralistic parts of the bible are usually ignored (helping the sick and the poor), while the terrible ones (hating gays) and made up ones (where, exactly, does the bible say abortion is bad?) are followed blindly.

Edit: not to say it's immoral to be against most abortions (I'd say being against all is though), just that I've never seen the bible verse condemning abortions.

Nowhere in my brief post did I mention a bible, book, religion or dogma. These things pervert the idea I was trying to get across.

 

[mistersafeway]

Nowhere in my brief post did I mention a bible, book, religion or dogma.

True, sorry. Still though, without communicating it to us then there is no reason to actually follow its guidelines for morality, hence why people don't all act nice. If there is such a being then their morality can't be very rigid, or they just don't care.

These things pervert the idea I was trying to get across.

I'll disagree there though, they most likely invented it.

 

[BobK]

(where, exactly, does the bible say abortion is bad?)

Thou shalt not kill.

Most of the controversy over abortion is if it can be considered murder, ie, at what point does an embryo become a human being. Some say at the moment of conception, in which case abortion is always murder; some say at birth, so that partial birth abortions are not murder. And various points in between.

It's also a form of contraception, which is also a no-no to some.

 

[Dotini]

True, sorry. Still though, without communicating it to us then there is no reason to actually follow its guidelines for morality, hence why people don't all act nice.

Direct first person experience with "God Consciousness" is all the communication necessary in my conjecture. Mediation by books or a hierarchic priesthood should not strictly be necessary. By the fact that not all people act nice, I assume humans possess free will.

If there is such a being then their morality can't be very rigid, or they just don't care.

In my original post, you will again recall that I made no reference to a "being". Only a creator of infinite consciousness.

 

[mistersafeway]

By the fact that not all people act nice, I assume humans possess free will.

Physics would possibly disagree, and truly objective morality would mean people would, regardless of free will, feel remorseful when they'd done something bad rather than when they got caught.

Edit: by which I suppose I mean that we have plenty of evidence that morality is a product of societal conditioning, and none whatsoever that any magic fairies (real or imagined) said 'this is right and this is wrong' when the universe began. Interesting from a philosophical viewpoint, just baseless from the observable facts.

In my original post, you will again recall that I made no reference to a "being". Only a creator of infinite consciousness.

Would that not qualify as a being? Or are you trying to say "God is dead"?

 

[Castrol96]

I take back what I previously said sounding like a complete *** . @Famine

I'm sorry, the discrimination I have previously received from some Atheists has effected me...

I'll stay out of this thread.

 

[Dotini]

Or are you trying to say "God is dead"?

Heh heh! Yes! I'm trying to say that God was never alive, never a physical being. Only a discarnate consciousness manifesting as the passing universe.

 

[Scaff]

I take back what I previously said sounding like a complete *** . @Famine

I'm sorry, the discrimination I have previously received from some Atheists has effected me...

I'll stay out of this thread.

What discrimination?

 

[Castrol96]

What discrimination?

I rather keep it private.

 

[Scaff]

I rather keep it private.

So much that you brought it up in public.

 

[TheCracker]

I rather keep it private.

Then why even mention it?

I can't comprehend a situation where an atheist or atheists would 'discriminate' against a Christian. The whole raison d'etre of being an atheist is because a) you don't care about religion, therefore you don't see other's religious beliefs as a reason to view them or treat them differently. Or b) you see too much discrimination or special treatment or suffering in the name of religion, that you don't want to have any part in it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I rather keep it private.

I simply struggle to believe that you were discriminated against by atheists. Now you've gone public perhaps you could tell us more?

 

[DK]

I simply struggle to believe that you were discriminated against by atheists. Now you've gone public perhaps you could tell us more?

Castrol's posts remind me of passive-aggressive attention-seeking Facebook status updates which receive a few "u ok hun?" comments, which are each replied to with "pm me".

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

You need faith to enjoy sunshine?

The faith is devastating bit is a long conversation. The short version is that it clouds your judgment and leads to incorrect assessment of situations. It has to have that effect, because it's (wrong) information that is taken as truth.

Here's a wildly exaggerated example, I'm exaggerating it to make a point, please don't take this to mean that I think this is how religious people behave.

Person of faith sees their child playing by the edge of a cliff. That child is in god's hands, if it's his will that the child falls, so be it. Child falls... that's was god's plan.

You might think that such an exaggerated example has no bearing on the real world, but the same is true of people who forgo medical treatment because "god's will", they have faith. I've firsthand seen a very religious person slack off at work and then explain that his subsequent layoff was god's will and that, as the sole provider for a family of 8, everything will work out because God (he's Mormon, so 8 is kinda the minimum). In fact, the fact that he has a family with 6 children is itself another example of judgment clouded by faith which has come at the expense of those same children, but that's a longer story.

I don't blame people for making these decisions any farther than that they should not have taken the first irrational step of believing in something unjustified. If I had faith, I'd behave differently too.

No you don't need faith to enjoy sunshine, but you asked for one of the perks and I listed it. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy it without it - just that you can feel a close connection when it occurs with faith.

As for the layoff incident I can't explain why that person believes being less able to provide is God's will. Maybe the upsides outweigh the financial struggle they would be in, or at least equalise it. Have you asked how he and his family are doing now since hitting financial difficulties?

I've no idea how you managed to get that impression from me. I actively try and keep faith and belief out of my life.

When I read "necessary" I think necessary to live. My bad.

What experiences?

So I saw people as animals in the literal sense, but nothing more. Their feelings seemed controlled by another power.

A question that you're not willing to answer?

Oh no I meant in general - so my strength will be different from another persons. As in it will be a personal response.

I don't mean to discount your contributions here, I truly appreciate your participation in the conversation here.

However, we've heard this several times before in this thread - "I've had some personal experiences that proved to me that God is real. I won't tell you what they are, but I will keep saying that it's evidence of his existence."

Knowing how important evangelism is to many sects of Christianity, I'm always left baffled by these folks' unwillingness to share their experiences, and by extension, refuse an opportunity to spread their faith to others.

Ahh.

So with almost converting to Islam I saw that it was more of a brotherhood - a sect if you like that didn't fit with my conscious. As an example my friends celebrated when 9/11 happened. That's NOT to say all Muslims did, but it was what I only saw. As for personal experiences in 2015, that was seeing the world through different eyes. In my case I saw people as turned away from God, and that this world was geared towards me. It was a funny few months, and very scary as it seemed the scriptures would literally talk to me and that I should come back to the faith as it was my only means of salvation. At one stage I had a delusion that I was about to die for my God, and something saved me. This reinforced my faith, but at the same time I continued to doubt if it was the work of God or the devil.

I need to go on another rant here.

I'm in the process of adopting a child internationally.

That is good

That process has me taking parenting training with a bunch of other people adopting internationally, most of whom were led to do so by God. I have thought A LOT about the safety of adopting internationally, and the impact on my exiting family. In deciding which country to choose to adopt from I considered things like whether I'm required to go to that country twice, how likely I am to return in one piece, whether or not the child I'd be adopting was stolen from their parents and sold to me, exactly what am I supporting by paying an orphanage, etc. (When I say "I" in this case, I actually mostly mean my wife)

Many of the people I've been in training with have explained that God guided them to adopt from a particular country, or a particular child. They're explaining how they're making multiple trips to some war riddled nation in Africa because it was God's plan. They have faith that God will return them home intact. That's a biiiiiig risk. Some of those nations are not exactly safe places to travel. Some of them require that you pay the orphanage in cash. How safe do you think it is to travel through some African warloard's land with a bag of $5,000 in cash? Twice. Are you getting a child that was stolen from their parents to be sold to you? Are you getting a child that was conceived for the purpose of making money off of you? Are you risking your existing children's happiness and stability by making this choice to risk your life (most of them have kids already)?

This is finding faith from God's plan. It can be conscious (as in the case of your fellow adopters) or unconscious. Ultimately it rests on your instincts. I believe that you can be close to God through your instincts, and if you (or you and your partner) decide to risk it then it is God's plan, even if you don't believe it to be so. As for exploitation, these are the risks of doing charity (which you are). And as for risking life, one thing I've learned is you cannot be assured of safety, no matter how much you believe.

Faith can lead people to make ill-informed decisions. If it takes the place of rational thought (which it must), it comes at a real cost.

It does, which is probably why faith and logic/science are kept separate.

 

[Danoff]

It does, which is probably why faith and logic/science are kept separate.

The only people who keep them separate are people who insist on believing something irrational.

 

[TenEightyOne]

This is finding faith from God's plan.

What makes the plan written by christian men better than the plan written by islamic men, given that you believe in their god?

 

[Imari]

No you don't need faith to enjoy sunshine, but you asked for one of the perks and I listed it. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy it without it - just that you can feel a close connection when it occurs with faith.

As for the layoff incident I can't explain why that person believes being less able to provide is God's will. Maybe the upsides outweigh the financial struggle they would be in, or at least equalise it. Have you asked how he and his family are doing now since hitting financial difficulties?

This is what a lot of people find sort of disturbing about belief, that no matter what might happen that would seem to contradict faith there's always an "explanation".

How would you tell if something was not God's will? It seems to me that the basic assumption by many religious people is that everything is God's will by default, and there's actually no point in asking whether that's true or not.

I apologise if how this is written comes off as derogatory or dismissive, it's not explicitly intended to be, but it sort of is by nature as I'm being critical of people willingly refusing to engage critical thinking.

So with almost converting to Islam I saw that it was more of a brotherhood - a sect if you like that didn't fit with my conscious. As an example my friends celebrated when 9/11 happened. That's NOT to say all Muslims did, but it was what I only saw.

Those people that you were with, although they may have called themselves Muslims, were not. A Muslim does not take joy in the death or suffering of others, any more than a Christian could.

Instead of calling them Muslims, it would be more accurate to label them as arseholes.

As for personal experiences in 2015, that was seeing the world through different eyes. In my case I saw people as turned away from God, and that this world was geared towards me. It was a funny few months, and very scary as it seemed the scriptures would literally talk to me and that I should come back to the faith as it was my only means of salvation. At one stage I had a delusion that I was about to die for my God, and something saved me. This reinforced my faith, but at the same time I continued to doubt if it was the work of God or the devil.

I find it odd that you can recognise something as a delusion and yet allow it to shape your life as though it were not. And even though you treat it as though it were not delusion, you're still unsure whether it came from a positive or negative higher power.

That seems like a pretty arbitrary way to run one's life. I think this is why many choose to live according to what they can experience and trust, because even if it turns out to be wrong at least you made the decision yourself. Turning yourself over to a delusion that you don't know whether was God, the devil or neither seems...unwise.

This is finding faith from God's plan. It can be conscious (as in the case of your fellow adopters) or unconscious. Ultimately it rests on your instincts. I believe that you can be close to God through your instincts, and if you (or you and your partner) decide to risk it then it is God's plan, even if you don't believe it to be so. As for exploitation, these are the risks of doing charity (which you are).

Here again is the idea that everything is God's plan. What room is there for free will if everything is God's plan? You do what God has planned for you, and any choices that you make are simply illusions that are part of God's plan.

It may be true, but I don't think that the idea that one has no agency or responsibility for their actions makes for a good person, a good community or a good society. Why reward people for their good deeds when they were only carrying out God's plan? Why punish criminals for the same?

I think you'll find that if you think about what actually works as a society, and indeed how Christianity teaches that a society should be, it's not compatible with the idea that everything conforms to a grand plan. We live based on the idea that free will exists and that people are responsible for their actions, which means no grand plan.

And as for risking life, one thing I've learned is you cannot be assured of safety, no matter how much you believe.

As someone who works in an industry where I could literally die any day (he says while banging firmly on a wooden desk), of course you can never be assured of safety. However, only an idiot uses that as an excuse to disregard any effort to be safe.

Just because you can't guarantee safety doesn't mean that you strip naked, cover yourself in honey and go poking bears with a sharp stick. Pretty much every religion teaches prudence and taking care of yourself and others above just about all else. Ie. not going to third world countries with ongoing civil wars and trusting that you will not be assaulted, raped and shot because some higher power is protecting you. Even if he does exist, he can't protect everyone, as seen in the many conflicts where Christians fought Christians.

 

[Danoff]

but it sort of is by nature as I'm being critical of people willingly refusing to engage critical thinking.

They're conditioned to refuse to engage in critical thinking on that subject and that subject alone. This is why you can have a person who demands evidence before adopting a belief in one area, like their work, and refuses evidence because of an adopted belief in another area. They're systematically conditioned to think that organized critical thinking has no place in this one specific area of reality and only that area of reality.

 

[Scaff]

This is finding faith from God's plan.

If God has a plan, do you have free will?

 

[Dotini]

If God has a plan, do you have free will?

If there is a God, then his plan has been to design the universe, wind up the spring, and let it run loose. Yes, we have free will. For instance, we can choose to believe or not to believe.

 

[Scaff]

If there is a God, then his plan has been to design the universe, wind up the spring, and let it run loose.

Citation required.

Yes, we have free will.

I agree (we may have), but if you believe in a higher power how do know that to be a fact.

For instance, we can choose to believe or not to believe.

How do you know its a choice? What if God planned for me to be an atheist?

It does also then raise the question of why give us free will only to then punish us for making use of it?

 

[mistersafeway]

It does also then raise the question of why give us free will only to then punish us for making use of it?

Because Yahweh has a god complex.

 

[Dotini]

Citation required.


I agree (we may have), but if you believe in a higher power how do know that to be a fact.


How do you know its a choice? What if God planned for me to be an atheist?

It does also then raise the question of why give us free will only to then punish us for making use of it?

I cite the religious philosophy of Deism, the religion of our American founders who likened God to an absent clockmaker.

In this arena of opinion and speculation, I claim no facts save my own first person experience.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

It does also then raise the question of why give us free will only to then punish us for making use of it?

I think that was the initial thought that caused me to question organized religion when I was a youngster. Something didn't add up: Christians would simultaneously suggest that everything was part of God's plan, but that choosing to not accept him would damn someone to an eternity of suffering. How is it a choice if God already planned it?

If God knows all, past present and future, that means he's specifically put people on the planet to doom them. That doesn't square with the all-loving message so many folks preach.

 

[Scaff]

I cite the religious philosophy of Deism, the religion of our American founders who likened God to an absent clockmaker.

In this arena of opinion and speculation, I claim no facts save my own first person experience.

Fair enough.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

The only people who keep them separate are people who insist on believing something irrational.

But does irrational mean "wrong"?

What makes the plan written by christian men better than the plan written by islamic men, given that you believe in their god?

I don't believe that the Islamic God is the same as the Abrahamic God.

This is what a lot of people find sort of disturbing about belief, that no matter what might happen that would seem to contradict faith there's always an "explanation".

How would you tell if something was not God's will? It seems to me that the basic assumption by many religious people is that everything is God's will by default, and there's actually no point in asking whether that's true or not.

I apologise if how this is written comes off as derogatory or dismissive, it's not explicitly intended to be, but it sort of is by nature as I'm being critical of people willingly refusing to engage critical thinking.

I think, by believing God is omnipotent, everything is God's will.

Those people that you were with, although they may have called themselves Muslims, were not. A Muslim does not take joy in the death or suffering of others, any more than a Christian could.

Instead of calling them Muslims, it would be more accurate to label them as arseholes.

Hmm an interesting take. They were mainly Pakistani-British if that makes a different. Although when you look at polls of Muslims a significant amount would then be classed as arseholes and not Muslims.

I find it odd that you can recognise something as a delusion and yet allow it to shape your life as though it were not. And even though you treat it as though it were not delusion, you're still unsure whether it came from a positive or negative higher power.

That seems like a pretty arbitrary way to run one's life. I think this is why many choose to live according to what they can experience and trust, because even if it turns out to be wrong at least you made the decision yourself. Turning yourself over to a delusion that you don't know whether was God, the devil or neither seems...unwise.

It may seem unwise, but that is the nature of turning yourself over to God. Many people through the generations have been called a lot worse for doing just that.

Here again is the idea that everything is God's plan. What room is there for free will if everything is God's plan? You do what God has planned for you, and any choices that you make are simply illusions that are part of God's plan.

It may be true, but I don't think that the idea that one has no agency or responsibility for their actions makes for a good person, a good community or a good society. Why reward people for their good deeds when they were only carrying out God's plan? Why punish criminals for the same?

I think you'll find that if you think about what actually works as a society, and indeed how Christianity teaches that a society should be, it's not compatible with the idea that everything conforms to a grand plan. We live based on the idea that free will exists and that people are responsible for their actions, which means no grand plan.

Heh, you have found my weakness, and that is the belief in free will. I'm not sure if this exists or not, and is something I struggle with on a daily basis.

As someone who works in an industry where I could literally die any day (he says while banging firmly on a wooden desk), of course you can never be assured of safety. However, only an idiot uses that as an excuse to disregard any effort to be safe.

Just because you can't guarantee safety doesn't mean that you strip naked, cover yourself in honey and go poking bears with a sharp stick. Pretty much every religion teaches prudence and taking care of yourself and others above just about all else. Ie. not going to third world countries with ongoing civil wars and trusting that you will not be assaulted, raped and shot because some higher power is protecting you. Even if he does exist, he can't protect everyone, as seen in the many conflicts where Christians fought Christians.

I think the big point here is context

If God has a plan, do you have free will?

Again, I don't know. Which is a major headache for me currently

 

[TenEightyOne]

I don't believe that the Islamic God is the same as the Abrahamic God.

So you don't believe that it was the same Abraham that God revealed himself to in the shared Judaic, Christian and Islaamic canon, that shares exactly the same name and the same characteristics? Huh?

Given that the only way anybody can suggest his existence to you is from the handed-down writings of men through the ages (unless you've had a personal divine revelation)... how have you ended up with a different version of the text from the established norm?

That really makes no sense and makes me wonder if you're being genuine, quite frankly.

 

[huskeR32]

But does irrational mean "wrong"?

Not necessarily. It is wrong to use irrational ideas as the basis of laws, though. Especially when applied to other people who don't share said irrational beliefs.

I don't believe that the Islamic God is the same as the Abrahamic God.

Not to be rude, but it doesn't matter that you don't believe that. Doesn't stop it from being true.

I think, by believing God is omnipotent, everything is God's will.

Heh, you have found my weakness, and that is the belief in free will.

Which is it? Can't be both.

 

[Danoff]

But does irrational mean "wrong"?

As far as it matters in this conversation, yes it means wrong.

Let's take an example. Suppose I irrationally believe that I will win the lottery tomorrow. Let's say I just have a feeling about it, that my numbers are the winning numbers. I'm completely convinced, I tell everyone around me "I'm winning the lottery tomorrow". Am I wrong? Technically no, I could win the lottery the next day. But I am wrong to believe it before it happens - because there is nothing rational supporting that belief. I am wrong to be convinced by my "feeling" about how lucky my numbers are. My belief is not based in reality.