Do you believe in God?

[Danoff]

It's not necessarily desirable. Some may say the drawbacks outweigh the perks

I do, or do you grow closer to the strength of faith?

What strength? What perqs? The only perq I can see is the ability to delude yourself, which is only a perq in the shortrun. In the longrun, it's devastating.

 

[huskeR32]

It's not necessary. Or do you mean to have belief in Jesus?

Okay, then what are you getting at here? -

If we had that, why would we need faith? God would turn into something scientific.

You seem to be suggesting that because humans have the ability to have faith in something, then there must be something to place that faith in. That's a faulty assumption. Why do we need to place faith in anything at all? What's wrong with living life only according to what our physical senses tell us is true?

It's not necessarily desirable. Some may say the drawbacks outweigh the perks

Then why do it? (Honest question, not trying to be snarky or anything.)

It's not pointless

If faith isn't necessary, which you seem to be at least halfway agreeing to, then your statement was a bit pointless.

I do, or do you grow closer to the strength of faith?

What strength comes from faith? Could similar (or even greater) strength not come from increasing our knowledge of things that are more certain? Of striving for more immutable truths, rather than hoping that we've guessed correctly in the "which God is real?" game?

Good question.... I don't! But I believe it is, however that's based on my experience of leaving the faith and almost converting - I can't speak for anyone else

If you don't mind sharing a little bit, why did you almost leave your faith? And what ultimately stopped you from doing so?

 

[Imari]

If we had that, why would we need faith? God would turn into something scientific.

Why would actually knowing if God exists or not be a bad thing? I assume that's what you're implying with the scientific comment. Or am I misreading?

 

[FoRiZon]

Hey, you know what happened when people decided to pick their leader because of the religion, even though he's blatantly convicted of corruption, funding hate and elite organizations, and supported by the most corrupt organizations and party in the country?

But who cares. Who cares about the one other achievements talked by most people when he is clearly an INFIDEL!

I really wish I born in a more secular country without religious BS.

 

[UKMikey]

Why would actually knowing if God exists or not be a bad thing? I assume that's what you're implying with the scientific comment. Or am I misreading?

 

[Dotini]

Why is faith necessary?

Because there is no proof.

 

[mistersafeway]

Because there is no proof.

True, but you know what I mean.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

What strength? What perqs? The only perq I can see is the ability to delude yourself, which is only a perq in the shortrun. In the longrun, it's devastating.

Why do you say having faith is devastating.

A perk is appreciating the sunshine for what it is - something for us to enjoy

Okay, then what are you getting at here?

Sorry I thought you meant it is necessary to live!

You seem to be suggesting that because humans have the ability to have faith in something, then there must be something to place that faith in. That's a faulty assumption. Why do we need to place faith in anything at all? What's wrong with living life only according to what our physical senses tell us is true?

You don't need to. You can choose to

Then why do it? (Honest question, not trying to be snarky or anything.)

Why do it? Faith is something personal, and for me personal experiences drew me closer

If faith isn't necessary, which you seem to be at least halfway agreeing to, then your statement was a bit pointless.

Yeah, having faith would be necessary for religion. Just to clear that up.

What strength comes from faith? Could similar (or even greater) strength not come from increasing our knowledge of things that are more certain? Of striving for more immutable truths, rather than hoping that we've guessed correctly in the "which God is real?" game?

Both can give you strength. As for what strength comes from faith, again that's a personal question. The same from seeking "immutable

If you don't mind sharing a little bit, why did you almost leave your faith? And what ultimately stopped you from doing so?[/QUOTE]
No I did leave the faith. My friends were mostly Muslim and I researched Islam and associated more with that at the time. Then I was agnostic for quite a few years. Then experiences in 2015 led me back to believe that there was a God, and that Jesus was my access to Him.

Why would actually knowing if God exists or not be a bad thing? I assume that's what you're implying with the scientific comment. Or am I misreading?

Interesting question.

I suppose this is highlighted throughout the Bible, where different people are exposed to God's power, yet refuse to believe in Him. Maybe it's a test created by Him, who knows

 

[Danoff]

Why do you say having faith is devastating.

A perk is appreciating the sunshine for what it is - something for us to enjoy

You need faith to enjoy sunshine?

The faith is devastating bit is a long conversation. The short version is that it clouds your judgment and leads to incorrect assessment of situations. It has to have that effect, because it's (wrong) information that is taken as truth.

Here's a wildly exaggerated example, I'm exaggerating it to make a point, please don't take this to mean that I think this is how religious people behave.

Person of faith sees their child playing by the edge of a cliff. That child is in god's hands, if it's his will that the child falls, so be it. Child falls... that's was god's plan.

You might think that such an exaggerated example has no bearing on the real world, but the same is true of people who forgo medical treatment because "god's will", they have faith. I've firsthand seen a very religious person slack off at work and then explain that his subsequent layoff was god's will and that, as the sole provider for a family of 8, everything will work out because God (he's Mormon, so 8 is kinda the minimum). In fact, the fact that he has a family with 6 children is itself another example of judgment clouded by faith which has come at the expense of those same children, but that's a longer story.

I don't blame people for making these decisions any farther than that they should not have taken the first irrational step of believing in something unjustified. If I had faith, I'd behave differently too.

 

[Georgeagea]

YES I do believe GOD as much as I believe that I exist!

 

[Famine]

YES I do believe GOD as much as I believe that I exist!

The key question there is: Do you exist? How do you know?

 

[huskeR32]

Sorry I thought you meant it is necessary to live!

I've no idea how you managed to get that impression from me. I actively try and keep faith and belief out of my life.

Why do it? Faith is something personal, and for me personal experiences drew me closer

What experiences?

Both can give you strength. As for what strength comes from faith, again that's a personal question.

A question that you're not willing to answer?

No I did leave the faith. My friends were mostly Muslim and I researched Islam and associated more with that at the time. Then I was agnostic for quite a few years. Then experiences in 2015 led me back to believe that there was a God, and that Jesus was my access to Him.

I don't mean to discount your contributions here, I truly appreciate your participation in the conversation here.

However, we've heard this several times before in this thread - "I've had some personal experiences that proved to me that God is real. I won't tell you what they are, but I will keep saying that it's evidence of his existence."

Knowing how important evangelism is to many sects of Christianity, I'm always left baffled by these folks' unwillingness to share their experiences, and by extension, refuse an opportunity to spread their faith to others.

 

[Danoff]

Why do you say having faith is devastating.

I need to go on another rant here.

I'm in the process of adopting a child internationally. That process has me taking parenting training with a bunch of other people adopting internationally, most of whom were led to do so by God. I have thought A LOT about the safety of adopting internationally, and the impact on my exiting family. In deciding which country to choose to adopt from I considered things like whether I'm required to go to that country twice, how likely I am to return in one piece, whether or not the child I'd be adopting was stolen from their parents and sold to me, exactly what am I supporting by paying an orphanage, etc. (When I say "I" in this case, I actually mostly mean my wife)

Many of the people I've been in training with have explained that God guided them to adopt from a particular country, or a particular child. They're explaining how they're making multiple trips to some war riddled nation in Africa because it was God's plan. They have faith that God will return them home intact. That's a biiiiiig risk. Some of those nations are not exactly safe places to travel. Some of them require that you pay the orphanage in cash. How safe do you think it is to travel through some African warloard's land with a bag of $5,000 in cash? Twice. Are you getting a child that was stolen from their parents to be sold to you? Are you getting a child that was conceived for the purpose of making money off of you? Are you risking your existing children's happiness and stability by making this choice to risk your life (most of them have kids already)?

Faith can lead people to make ill-informed decisions. If it takes the place of rational thought (which it must), it comes at a real cost.

 

[Castrol96]

Do you exist? How do you know?

Really?

 

[Famine]

Really?

Yep.

Spoiler alert: In doing this you'll probably find that your threshold of evidence is different for your existence (and frankly just about anything) than it is for your chosen deity.

 

[Castrol96]

Yep.

Spoiler alert: In doing this you'll probably find that your threshold of evidence is different for your existence (and frankly just about anything) than it is for your chosen deity.

 

[Famine]

Really?

Perhaps if you were to expand beyond single word/smiley posts on what it is that's confusing you, you'd be in a better position to be helped.

 

[Castrol96]

Perhaps if you were to expand beyond single word/smiley posts on what it is that's confusing you, you'd be in a better position to be helped.

Whatever.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I need to go on another rant here.

I'm in the process of adopting a child internationally. That process has me taking parenting training with a bunch of other people adopting internationally, most of whom were led to do so by God. I have thought A LOT about the safety of adopting internationally, and the impact on my exiting family. In deciding which country to choose to adopt from I considered things like whether I'm required to go to that country twice, how likely I am to return in one piece, whether or not the child I'd be adopting was stolen from their parents and sold to me, exactly what am I supporting by paying an orphanage, etc. (When I say "I" in this case, I actually mostly mean my wife)

Many of the people I've been in training with have explained that God guided them to adopt from a particular country, or a particular child. They're explaining how they're making multiple trips to some war riddled nation in Africa because it was God's plan. They have faith that God will return them home intact. That's a biiiiiig risk. Some of those nations are not exactly safe places to travel. Some of them require that you pay the orphanage in cash. How safe do you think it is to travel through some African warloard's land with a bag of $5,000 in cash? Twice. Are you getting a child that was stolen from their parents to be sold to you? Are you getting a child that was conceived for the purpose of making money off of you? Are you risking your existing children's happiness and stability by making this choice to risk your life (most of them have kids already)?

Faith can lead people to make ill-informed decisions. If it takes the place of rational thought (which it must), it comes at a real cost.

Good for you! I wish you all the best.

I absolutely agree with the point that you get to about faith leading people to make ill-informed decisions... but then the thought also strikes me that so can money. $5,000 in cash, that's the windfall of a lifetime in some places. Is it all faith or is some of it the even-older human condition of greed?

Whatever.

That's like taking the pin out of a hand-grenade to see what's in the hole.

 

[Castrol96]

Good for you! I wish you all the best.

I absolutely agree with the point that you get to about faith leading people to make ill-informed decisions... but then the thought also strikes me that so can money. $5,000 in cash, that's the windfall of a lifetime in some places. Is it all faith or is some of it the even-older human condition of greed?



That's like taking the pin out of a hand-grenade to see what's in the hole.

I just don't want a cluster of alerts.

 

[Danoff]

Good for you! I wish you all the best.

I absolutely agree with the point that you get to about faith leading people to make ill-informed decisions... but then the thought also strikes me that so can money. $5,000 in cash, that's the windfall of a lifetime in some places. Is it all faith or is some of it the even-older human condition of greed?

Thanks,

To be clear I'm not trying to blame the actions of African warlords, thieves, or kidnappers on faith. There are lots of motivating factors, including greed, desperation, and culture. My main point is that if you believe that God has a plan for you, and that he's guiding your life, you can, even just to the smallest extent, take your hand off the wheel. Sometimes that's irresponsible.

 

[Famine]

Whatever.

Well, if you're happy to appear pig-ignorant, that's the right way to go about it. I'm sure people will be happy to leap to your assistance in this forum in the future with an attitude like that.

 

[Castrol96]

Well, if you're happy to appear pig-ignorant, that's the right way to go about it. I'm sure people will be happy to leap to your assistance in this forum in the future with an attitude like that.

I didn't intend any disrespect with what I said.

 

[Imari]

I didn't intend any disrespect with what I said.

You cannot possibly be serious. At least own what you say.

 

[Castrol96]

You cannot possibly be serious. At least own what you say.

I said 'whatever' as in i'm fine. I do agree I might have used the wrong word.

 

[Imari]

I said 'whatever' as in i'm fine. I do agree I might have used the wrong word.

I was referring more to the entire string of dismissive and non-responsive posts, but if that's the way you want to play it....whatever.

 

[stonesfan129]

I honestly don't know if there is "God" or not. I hope there is. But I can't prove that there is.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I honestly don't know if there is "God" or not. I hope there is.

Why?

 

[Dotini]

Why?

Let me take a stab at this, strictly as a conjecture.

If there is a creator of infinite consciousness that our individual consciousness is a part of, it would form a rationale or basis for moral behavior, for doing good and for undertaking productive activity. In effect, it ("God") is an archetypal organizing principle for conscious mortal beings operating in a difficult physical world.

 

[mistersafeway]

If there is a creator of infinite consciousness that our individual consciousness is a part of, it would form a rationale or basis for moral behavior

Most people who do good things don't need an ancient book to tell them to, although they may convince themselves they do. Plenty of people need an excuse to be disgustingly bigoted though, as in the well known Leviticus example about homosexuality, while they have tattoos and piercings, wear mixed fabrics, and happily eat pork and shellfish. All of those things are worthy of execution according to Leviticus, and I'm pretty sure it's also the part of the bible that says a man should be executed if he ever cuts his hair or shaves his face. There's too much insanity in all religious texts for them to be a solid basis for morality, including most versions of the New Testament thanks to Revelations. The more moralistic parts of the bible are usually ignored (helping the sick and the poor), while the terrible ones (hating gays) and made up ones (where, exactly, does the bible say abortion is bad?) are followed blindly.

Edit: not to say it's immoral to be against most abortions (I'd say being against all is though), just that I've never seen the bible verse condemning abortions.